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Hi
I was just wondering if anyone in here are improvising using chord shapes?
(Herb Ellis-style. )I find it to be a very effective way to PLAY MUSIC.
It has really helped my jazz playing in a great way and maybe there are others in this forum who uses this approach.
What are your thoughts on this?
If you are into other approaches to improvising, please dont write in this thread. I am looking for the " shape-guys/girls"
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06-16-2008 08:06 AM
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Usually I don't do this, but it's a great way to know because when your improvising and your not thinking of technique, it becomes second nature, which is helpfull. heres some shapes i use to work out of.
maj.
-1---5---8--
-1---6---10-
-2---5---10-
-3---7---10-
min:
-1---4---8
-1---6---9
-1---5---10
-3---6---10
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I tend to stick to Drop 2 chords on the top 4 and middle four strings when chord soloing ala Wes. Or I use 3rds and 7ths below a melody line ala Lenny Breau.
MW
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Yes, I use this method extensively, especially for arpeggio-based phrases. I also rely on chord shapes as landmarks to identify where various scales exist on the fretboard. I use the CAGED system primarily, although I do have other chord shapes I like that I use for landmarks that identify custom boxes I have developed that I use to create licks from. I know the intervals of these chord shapes every well, then I visualize the intervals/notes of various scales surrounding the intervals of these shapes.
Originally Posted by Chrizzia
Hi
I was just wondering if anyone in here are improvising using chord shapes?
(Herb Ellis-style. )I find it to be a very effective way to PLAY MUSIC.
It has really helped my jazz playing in a great way and maybe there are others in this forum who uses this approach.
What are your thoughts on this?
If you are into other approaches to improvising, please dont write in this thread. I am looking for the " shape-guys/girls"
I found that when I began thinking in terms of chord shapes and their intervals that is was much easier for me to navigate the fretboard and visualize multiple scales in any paticular position.
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I start this by knowing triad scales. George Van Epps was the man when it came to triads, and guys like Van Moretti, Bucky Pizzarelli and Howard Alden seem to really use a lot of triad based stuff from George's famous method.
From triad scales, chord scale knowledge is the next step for me. So when I run across a new shape I am not familiar with, I build out maj, min, dom & half dim shapes from it, then play it as a chord scale around the key circle. From there, I try to start plugging it into tunes.
I think chord runs and improv is totally cool. I have a method book on Wes' approach that has a bunch of his chord licks.
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What's the book called? The Wes book.
I'd love to know more about how to improvise a chord solo. I'm still fairly new at this whole jazz thing. haha. Anyway, can someone maybe explain the concept. Or I guess I sort of get the concept. Maybe just some basic technique?
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One thing you can do is take a simple melody line that you like, say G A Bb G over a 2-5 in F, so Gm7-C7.
Then harmonize the line, perhaps like:
1 & 2 &
G A Bb G
D F D
Bb C Bb
F G E
That's just one example, try and come up with other lines and different harmonizations.
I've found that drop two chord, 1573, and it's inversions work well for harmonizing lines, as do 4th chords, ala So What.
MW
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Awesome thanks. Any suggestions for who to listen to to pick up some of this stuff?
Also, just recently I've started getting into John Pizzarelli (someone here suggested him, might've been you, not sure). Anyway, he does a lot of chord soloing type stuff. Any idea what it is he might be doing?
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Originally Posted by derek
Just curious, what exactly do you mean by triad scales? Just scales harmonized with triads and inversions?
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Here's a better version of the example I mentioned above,
I just realized it didn't really come out very readable.
And the two best guys to check out are Joe Pass and Ed Bickert. You can check out Joe's book called Chord Solos for like 10 bucks or less, great book!
As for John, he's coming from the swing tradition, more "old school" than Joe Pass and others. Check out George Van Epps' stuff for great examples of how to play in that style.
MW
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Oh, ok. I gotcha. I've worked a little bit with the quartal harmony thing. It's been a while. That can make for a really bizzare sound when you get it going right. I'm still not very good at it. I used it more for getting a little variation with comping. I'd never even thought about for chord melody or chord soloing. Haha, it's amazing the things you can go without even noticing when you start using something in one particular way.
Alright, Joe Pass book sounds good. Especially the under $10 part. Right now I've quite a list of music and books I need to get and I have a grand total of 28 cents in my pocket. haha. I did get two Nat King Cole cds and a John Pizzarelli cd all for $15 yesterday though. Anyway, I appreciate the advice. I actually just came from jamming a little, trying the drop 2 voicings for chord soloing. It still sounds a little like improvised chord melody (chord on the 1 and 3 with eighth notes linking them together) but it's getting a little better. Anyway, thanks for the advice and suggestions.
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I'm looking on amazon.com and I see a couple of Joe Pass chord books in addition to Chord Solos. I see Chord Solos, Guitar Chords, Guitar Style, and Guitar Method. Read any of them?
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Go with the Chord Solos book, it's your best bet.
MW
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Yes. So you take a specific triad shape, figure out major, minor, dim from that shape w/o inverting, and then play a scale without changing string sets. So Cmaj, Dmin, Emin, etc. Then do the same with the two inversions. That takes care of one string set. You have 4 string sets total to work with when it is just 3 strings at a time. Make sense? Originally Posted by DMatthewsBand07
I often use triad or chord scales when I have a bar or more of a chord, typically the I chord. So say in the B section of All The Things You Are, there are a couple of ii V I's in G, where you ride the Gmaj7 for 2 bars both times. Some guys will back cycle, but another thing to do is to improvise with chord scales like you would with a single note scale.
I feel quite confident that Matt does this sort of thing and can probably explain it better than I am.
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Here is the book I have. I have copped a couple chord licks from it, but there really is quite a bit there, and after learning several of them, you can begin to see how to put them together for yourself. Originally Posted by DMatthewsBand07
How To Play Chordal Bebop Lines For Guitar: Jazzbooks.com=
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Alright, I definitely get what you're saying with the triads. My guitar teacher had me practice them quite a lot about a year ago but I don't do it much anymore. Probably about time I dusted the little three string triads off again. Thanks man.
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Yeah, I've worked triads a ton over the years. When I started transcriping Ed Bickert and Kurt Rosenwinkel I was suprised how much of their playing is based off of simple triads! It really opened a lot of doors. And Derek did a great job of explaining how to work them out.
MW
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Chrizza, were you asking about "chord melody" improvising? I thought you were asking whether people used chord shapes as a basis for selecting single note lines.
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You are right, it was actually menat as a thread who uses chord-shapes for the basis of their soloing and not chord-solos
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Yes, but you will also find this improvisational device in chord melody (chord solos). Since you are the band in that setting, you retain your full sound when using chords or triads to improvise with rather than single note stuff without any backing, though plenty (see Joe Pass & Lenny Breau) did fine dropping in extended single lines between chordal passages. Originally Posted by Chrizzia
You are right, it was actually menat as a thread who uses chord-shapes for the basis of their soloing and not chord-solos
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Originally Posted by m78w
Thanks Matt. I always sweat a bit when trying to put out concepts with all the heavy hitters we have around here. There is enough shaky info out there in the guitar world, I don't want to add to it.
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Hey Derek and MW. Any tips on getting the chord shapes under your fingers. I've been practicing the triads and quartal voicings for a while now. I was familiar with the Drop 2's but I didn't know that that's what they were. Anyway, I'm familiar with the shapes but have never used them for chord soloing. I was wondering if you guys had any tips or excercises for practicing being able to move back and forth between the shapes smoothly.
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One thing you can do is comp through major and minor key 2-5-1's without moving your hand.
For example
If you are using Drop 2's on the top four strings to comp through major key 2-5-1's you would do it like so.
2 - root position
5- 2nd inversion
1 - root position
2 - 1st inversion
5- 3rd inversion
1 - 1st inversion
2 - 2nd inversion
5 - root position
1 - 2nd inversion
2 - 3rd inversion
5 - 1st inversion
1 - 3rd inversion
notice how the voice leading works, the 2 and 1 will always be in the same inversion. This is a good way to get used to seeing inversions without just playing all of the inversions of a chord in a row, which you really wouldn't do in a practical situation.
Once this is easy, try working on tunes this way. Take all the things you are and try comping with drop 2 chords on the middle or top four strings without moving your hand more than 2 frets in either direction.
This is a great way to learn chord vocings, voice leading and your neck in general.
MW
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How exactly would you invert the drop 2's. Would you just invert the voicing. C G B E becomes G B E C. Or would you take the inversion and drop the two. E G B C becomes E B C G. In terms of fingering, the latter seems to be a little more practical.
Just curious. I'm still new at this.
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I would do them like this, and it's a good way to think about these chords as you can apply it to any type, maj7, 7, m7,m7b5 etc
R 5 7 3
3 7 R 5
5 R 3 7
7 3 5 R
Notice how the 5th and R and 3rd and 7th are always next to eachother, this helps to memorize the chord shapes as well.
MW
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