Melodic Minor Scales

[Ronen]

I like the sound of that melodic scales and I saw you suggest them in different places.

Can you give exmples where can it be used?

R

[m78w]

Hey Ronen,
Here are examples where the melodic minor scale is commonly used in jazz.

I'll do it by chord type to try and make it easier and write them in the key of C.

7th Chords

7susb9#9 = Second Mode, D Eb F G A B C

7#11 = Fourth Mode, F G A B C D Eb

7b13 = Fifth Mode, G A B C D Eb F

7alt(b9,#9,b5,#5) = Seventh Mode, B C D Eb F G A

Minor Chords

mMaj7 = First Mode, C D Eb F G A B

Major Chords

Maj7#5 = Third Mode, Eb F G A B C D

Half Diminished Chords

m7b5(#9) = Sixth Mode, A B C D Eb F G

Hope that helps,
MW

[Ronen]

First, thanks so much for the information, very helpful and appricated!

Regarding the 251 can you help telling where and which melodic can I play for each ?
1) IIm7b5, V7, Im
2) IIm7, V7, IMaj7

Ronen

[m78w]

Here's what you can do with the melodic minor over those 2-5's.

1) minor key 2-5's.

iim7b5 = sixth mode melodic minor

V7 = second, fourth, fifth and seventh modes can be used.

Im = first mode

Major Key 2-5's

iim7 = first mode

V7 = second, fourth, fifth and seventh modes can be used

Imaj7 = third mode.

Hope that helps!
MW

[merseybeat]

Cool, thanks!

Eddie

[Ronen]

Not familiar with modes...how do i build the sixth mode melodic minor?

[m78w]

Here are all the modes of melodic minor in the key of C with the relation to the major scales modes next to it.

1) C D Eb F G A B major scale with lowered 3rd.

2) D Eb F G A B C dorian scale with lowered 2nd.

3) Eb F G A B C D phrygian scale with lowered root.

4) F G A B C D Eb lydian scale with lowered 7th.

5) G A B C D Eb F mixolydian scale with lowered 6th.

6) A B C D Eb F G aeolian scale with lowered 5th.

7) B C D Eb F G A locrian scale with lowered 4th.

You can think of the 6th mode of melodic minor as a locrian scale with a raised 2nd, or the natural minor scale with a flat 5th.

MW

[merseybeat]

Nice one Matt ;o) .. They are also available in the lessons here on jazzguitar.be

The Melodic Minor Scale And Its Modes

Regards

Eddie

[lkmuller]

Hi Matt,

Trying to digest this great info and want to know if I'm on the right track. If I understand this correctly, for example, for a Cmaj7#5, I can play an Ab melodic minor, of which a C Lydian #5 is the 3rd mode of ?

Thanks, appreciate the help.

Lee

[m78w]

Hey Lee,
You're on the right track, but remember that the Melodic Minor has a b3rd, so for a Cmaj7#5 you would need to play the A Melodic Minor scale, C D E F# G# A B, not Ab.

But you are right it is the third mode, so the theory is there, just watch the spelling, melodic minor is always tricky that way because it's so close to the major scale.

MW

[Ronen]

Help...i'm missing something here so here are some idiot questions

All modes here are on the same scale but starting/ending on different positions and all are with the SAME NOTES. right?

What does it mean to me when playing?
How do I need to take it into account when imporv?
Do I need to start on specific note when playing with different chord?
If all is the same scale so what is the modes for?

Ronen

[m78w]

Modes on the guitar are used for two reasons. The first is to allow us to play the same scale, say melodic minor, in different positions on the neck. Also they allow us to "color" chords differently. For example if you had a C7 chord you could play F melodic minor to give it a #11 color, or you could play a G melodic minor to give it a b13 color, or you could play Db melodic minor to give it an altered 7th flavor.

Hope that helps,
MW

[Ronen]

Diff positions on neck is clear but "colored" is not as all modes have the same notes

Lets take C7, how Db melodic gives it altered 7th flavor

[Goofsus4]

The reason that Db melodic minor sounds the way it does over a C7 is because of intervals that are being played against the C7. The superimposition of that scale over the C7 produces a lot of altered tensions. However, you can do exactly same thing by playing the C7 arpeggio and adding just the tensions you want, or by playing some type of a C7 alt arpeggio.

If you go the "superimpose this scale or arp over this or that chord" approach, then I strongly recommend that you sit down and analyze every single interval that scale or arp is creating over the subject chord. It's the only way to truly understand what's going on. Until you do that, you are just running patterns. This is fine when playing by ear, but it won't advance your musical knowledge.

After you understand the intervallic relationships you are playing, then you can better understand why the superimpositions work, and then even come up with your own superimposition ideas.

I am just making this statement because it really, really helped me understand these concepts. Before, I was like a lot of newer folks, baffled by modes when and how to use them. But after I started just learning to look at everything within the context of what intervals were being played, it all made perfect sense to me.

[m78w]

Here is how those three 7th modes work that I mentioned above.

C7 (4th mode melodic minor, G melodic minor)

C D E F# G A Bb C, so you have a #11 in the scale F#

C7 (5th mode melodic minor, F melodic minor)

C D E F G Ab Bb, so you have a b13 in the scale, Ab.

C7 (7th mode melodic minor, Db melodic minor)

C Db Eb E Gb Ab Bb so you have a b9,#9,b5 and #5 in the scale, Db, Eb, Gb, and Ab.

Hope that helps!
MW

[merseybeat]

Which is your favorite Matt? Say if you where coming from the Gm7 to The C7 which would be your first choice?

Regards

Eddie

[m78w]

Hey Eddie

I prefer the 7#11 sound, so if I was playing Gm7-C7 I would just use the G melodic minor scale over both of those chords. It works really well, cuts down the thought process, sounds "bebop", and the fingering sits very well on the guitar.

If you check this mode out you'll realize that Martino, Wes and Benson used the mode/fingering almost all the time when they weren't using Mixolydian.

MW

[merseybeat]

Cool mate, Il try it! Thanks

Eddie

[Ronen]

But one can looks at it as add what ever note you want to color your improv,e.g. #11,7...

For example for C7, take the C mixolydian and add Ab to add b13 color and F# to add #11...who said I can't play the A when adding Ab?

There're so many combination and it looks like lifetime is needed to find the most suitable for me.

G melodic indeed is great on Gm7-C7, do you have cookbook to shorten research

MW and all, thanks!
Ronen

[Ronen]

Good idea

[m78w]

I agree, in the past I have learned all these modes all over the neck in every key etc. But when I'm playing, and in my current practice regime, I don't specifically think of modes. I always know where the "in" notes are and the "out" notes are over a given chord. Then I can go between them using common jazz vocabulary. And if I want to step out I also know what subs I can play to go a little or a lot outside of the chord changes, and how to get myself back in when it's appropriate.

MW

[Goofsus4]

But one can looks at it as add what ever note you want to color your improv,e.g. #11,7...

For example for C7, take the C mixolydian and add Ab to add b13 color and F# to add #11...who said I can't play the A when adding Ab?

MW and all, thanks!
Ronen

Exactly. That's why I don't think of superimpositions any more. I just look at every chord as basically it's own scale, and then just add whatever tensions I want to it on an ad hoc basis. Over time, I notice that I'm developing a way of phrasing that is style-based. I choose the chromatics and tensions I want that I know will give me a certain sound, jazzy-melodic, blusey, funky, latin, etc. Yes, I still end up recognizing and using patterns, but I don't think of them as a pattern from another key or chord arp. If I'm playing over a C7, then I think exactly like you said, I consider the "default" scale for C7 to be "mixo" (1,2,3,4,5,6,b7) and then just use any or all of those, and then add in chromatic tensions that suit me depending on the style. For a regular dom 7, I use the b3 and b5 mostly. If the chord changes to a C7b9, then the b9 (b2) is now part of the scale, so that tone gets automatically added. Or, I could just add the b2 in over the C7, regardless. There are no rules, just what sounds good. It's the only way you can ever develop your own style, anyway. You just have to take that palette of notes and then experiment until you start coming up with your own approach.

[merseybeat]

Ronen, one thing I am finding out quickly is if it sounds good go for it! I am experimenting with chromatics at the moment, They used to sound like 'waffle' but now Im getting some confidence in using them they can actually sound amazing! Start simple and build on it! Thats what I am trying to do!

Eddie

[RichVincent]

Hi All:
This week is scale week.I have been getting into Blue Bossa and using D Locrian 2 scale over Dm7b5, Phrygian Dominant over G7, and Ab Lydian dominant over Ab7. Huge difference!
I have been following this thread and have come to the conclusion that I am somewhat confused by the " coloring " of chords. I understand in general what the extensions are about 9, 11, 13. I, for some reason, have always believed that those notes were always played on the top of a chord. But I went back to a chord book and found that is not the case.
Matt, in your post #15 on melodic scales you mention how the modes of the melodic minor work to create the colors of the 7th chord. Does that mean that you need to play the scale in strict order so that the colors end up on top or what? At that point I fall apart. I am trying to learn to play those modes over a 7th chord. The 4th mode of G mm is safe, all of the notes of the C7 being in the scale.5th mode of F mm seems equally safe. When we get to 7th mode of Db mm, the G is missing. Does it still sound good?
Rich

[m78w]

Hey Rich,
Yep, the 7th mode of melodic minor is a bit tricky at first. Though there is no 5th you don't really need it. And in actual fact there are two fifths stuck in the scale, a b5 F#(Gb) and a #5 G#(Ab), so there are fifths, just not the natural fifth (g).

You don't need to play these in any order, whichever you feel like and what sounds good will work just fine.

One thing to check out is what kind of chord the extension spell with the different modes.

So for 4th mode MM the C7#11 chord, the 9th-13th spell a D triad, D F# A.

So you could play a D triad over a C7 chord and hit all the extensions.

For fifth mode MM the C7b13 chord, the 9th-13th spell an F diminished triad, D F Ab.

So you could play a D diminished triad over C7 and hit all the extensions.

For the seventh mode MM the C7alt chord, the 9th-13th are ususally spelled as a Db minor triad, Db E Ab. So technically the E is not an extension, it's the 3rd, but to keep with the triad formula this is normally used.

So you could play a Db minor triad over C7 to give it a b9,b13 sound.

Try those out, they make it easy to outline all of these weird extensions as all you're playing are simple triads!

MW