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I have been struggling to play anything over the diminished passages in How Insensitive. I have mostly been messing around with just the chord tones or the HW diminished (I am pretty sure it is the HW, it is a half step into each chord tone). Everything seems a little too dissonant and I am wanting to keep it pretty tasty. I recall hearing people talking about looking at the diminished chord in terms of the passing tones between the chord preceding and following it but I am unsure of how to apply this. Thanks y'all
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07-07-2010 03:16 PM
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Talking about that second bar?
try D harmonic minor. The diminished's are not just functioning as passing chords in this tune...Last edited by mr. beaumont; 07-07-2010 at 03:40 PM.
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How Insensitive
FWIW
C#dim7 - I play an arp or I treat it like a A7b9, I also hear this scale as the dim scale starting on a whole step - i.e. C# D# E F# G etc.
The Bdim7 - I usually play some notes of a dim scale targeting a resolution into a chord tone of the next chord Bbmaj7.
Great song, and one of my favorite youtube videos (actually you should figure out what Pat is doing for those chords and let me know
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Last edited by fep; 07-07-2010 at 04:20 PM.
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the thing to take away here is that every diminished chord is a rootless 7b9 chord as well. Fep and I are both showing you things that work here (in this context, i find the whole-half diminished scale pretty "out," but resolved well, it's very cool)
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Honestly, I completely ignore them. I can't think of a tune where they aren't used as just a passing chord, so it is easy to take a breath before coming up with the next phrase.
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this would the quintessential example, derek. 2 bars at a pop.
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Hi Fractal, this is a great song, but can be difficult to interpret. One reason, is that it is one of those tunes that has several of the chords that are different depending on the source of the music. You questions highlights this issue.
Originally Posted by Fractal
For example, if you have "The Real Book Vol 1" the first four measures are:
| D-9 | D-9 | C#dim7 | C#dim7 |
If you have "The Standards Real Book" the first four measures are:
| Dm7 | Dm7 | A7b9/C# | A7b9/C# |
Because of your question, I am assuming you have a version like the first example.
My book, "Jazz Guitar Soloing Concepts: A Pentatonic Modal Approach to Improvisations" shows how to address either situation. If you don't have the book, I cover the topics in a two-part article I did for JUST JAZZ GUITAR, "Diminished Scales Not Useful for Diminished Chords". Part 1 is in the Feb 2010 issue and Part 2 will be in the August 2010 issue. * As you can infer from the title of the articles, I show alternatives to using diminished scales or diminished arpeggios for diminished chords.
My approach is based on the premise that there are only 3 diminished chords: Idim, #Idim, and IIdim. All other diminished chords are simply inversions of one of these three. In this case, the key of this chord sequence is Bb. The diminished chord is labeled C#dim because it is highlighting the fact that the intent is for a chromatic descending bass line: D C# C B Bb. However, for soloing purposes, the C#dim chord (#IIdim in Bb) is really an inversion of a Idim chord (Bbdim).
For the #Idim and IIdim chords I recommend a Mixolydian b9 Pentatonic Scale. For the Idim chord I recommend a Major Blues Pentatonic Scale.
The advantages of using pentatonic scales is that there are no "avoid" notes and since all my scales use the 2-notes-per-string approach, they are easy to remember and to play.
If there is interest about my approach from those who don't have the book or access to the articles, I can post my recommended "solution" for measures 3-4 of this song.
The simple answer is to play a Bb major blues scale or (as suggested by others) think of the C#dim7 as a A7b9 chord.
Ron
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Bb? I would have said D minor. And the C#dim7, no matter how I look at it, is best analyzed as a A7b9. Originally Posted by rlemos
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Hi BDLH, I think your points are totally valid. I am only sharing the way I think about this song. It may or may not be useful to others. The "Standards Real Book" has this song with the Bb key signature. The "Real Book Vol 1" doesn't show a key signature (which could be interpreted as the key of C). In this version, I think the listed Dm9 is misleading since it implies a dorian sound. IMO the first two measures have a phrygian sound if I am thinking in Bb or a harmonic minor sound if I am thinking in Dm. As I mentioned in my previous post, thinking of this chord as a A7b9 is a good way to go and is the way it is listed in many books. I am only sharing some alternatives that I have come up with and that have been useful to others. Thank you for your feedback. Ron Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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I can understand the Bb idea, as those first 8 bars are certainly setting us up to get to that Bb chord in bars 8 and 9, but I view the first four bars as a stop in D minor, hence the C#dim/ A7b9 sound working as a V, and D harmonic minor fitting nicely over it...
FWIW, the D-9 in bars 1 and 2 certainly does NOT sound Dorian to me...so rlemos' phygian idea (assuming the Dm to be the iii of home base, Bb) definitely works, but i still like thinking of bars 1-4 as i--V.
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Oh, also, Real book sixth ed. puts the key sig as F, or Dm.
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I substitute C#° with Gb7#9. It works well in a chord melody version. An altered scale (Gb7alt, from Gm melodic) over the Gb7#9 easily resolves to Cm6.
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A C#°7 could be a A7b9, F#7b9, Eb7b9 or C7b9. You could get away with all of them. Or use more than one: Originally Posted by pineapple
Dmin7: x5x565
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A7 : x4x253
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F#7: x4x352
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Cmin6: x3243
The main melody note (A) works with all the chords. As far as jazz minor scales go, G JM, E JM, C# JM, Bb JM all work, with varying tension, against all those seventh chords.
Or you could just go with D HM over A7
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Thanks a lot BigDaddyLoveHandles. Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
A C#°7 could be a A7b9, F#7b9, Eb7b9 or C7b9. You could get away with all of them. Or use more than one:
Dmin7: x5x565
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A7 : x4x253
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F#7: x4x352
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Cmin6: x3243
The main melody note (A) works with all the chords. As far as jazz minor scales go, G JM, E JM, C# JM, Bb JM all work, with varying tension, against all those seventh chords.
Or you could just go with D HM over A7
I know my 'substitution' is rather using 'another chord' than using standard substitutions as you suggest, but I like the flavour of the F#7#9 threre. It helps me also to stay away from minor harmonic scale... I use a similar approach with Corcovado too. Antonio Carlos, I beg your pardon.
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It's obvious but I'll say it anyway: Jobim's songs are great. The progressions aren't obscure but they're tasty and open-ended -- they invite you to do different things with them. Rock on, Pineapple!
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The advice here is good, but I don't think the C#dim is "rootless." The root is in the melody.
-You can, as some suggest, treat this like Mozart's Eine Kleine Nach Musika
D,A,D,A,D,A,D,F,A
G,E,G,E,G,E,C#,Bb
-You can just blow straight through on Dm and ignore the change (kind of like the melody does).
-As Pine suggests, you can "sub" an altered form of the V of the next chord (Cm).
Three useful ideas.
When I saw the thread title, I thought you were going to ask about the two "dim" chords in other part of the song. Cm11-Bdim and Bm11-Bbdim.
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Speaking of "other" dim chords, what would you do in Corcovado?
D7/A Abdim7 Gm7
The melody over the Abdim7 alternates between E and D. How about C harmonic major (C D E F G Ab B C)?
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I definitely think of that one as a G7b9 (or a G13b9). Most of the time, I play G7 ideas, G7/13b9 ideas, or diminished arpeggios there...I don't think HM because I'm not feeling the Eb with the melody so clearly E and D...
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I play Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
D9 (or A7sus)/ Db7#9 / Gm7 C9 Gm7 Gb7 C6/9 ....
The C harmonic major seems to work well. Thanks BDLH
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