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Imagine how much easier it would be to move around on the guitar with a symmetrical system! I hate it when I decide I wanna learn a line in all 5 caged positions and have to allow for the B string dropped semitone of course which makes for 5 (at least!) different ways to learn every single line I wanna commit to memory. Then there are all the chord voicings that need memorizing. Sure, it's all do-able, and I'm doing it, but sometimes I wonder if it would all be easier with repeatable pattern moving. What's the main downside to this idea?
Yeah, I know, I shouldn't complain, not when there are kids out there that learn everything in 12 piano keys!!
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06-23-2010 01:02 PM
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I'm a little confused: are you asking what's the downside of tuning in all fourths? (E A D G C F)?
Well, it's true you have more shapes to learn, but the upside is you have more shapes! If something is hard to play on the top 4 strings, it may become playable if you shift to strings A,D,G & B. With the 4th tuning, the fingerings always stay the same, so shifting to a different string set changes nothing.
I once thought that going to a different tuning would be a win, but the fact that so many amazing guitarists use the standard tuning convinced me it's the way to go.
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Yeah, but the fact that most guitarists use the standard tuning may be just because they never considered an alternative. Of course, once you've invested truck loads of time, you don't wanna change the whole damn thing and go losing all that good work... I think I've read about guys with 7 string symmetrical systems, I wonder how they're gettin' on....
Originally Posted by BigDaddyLoveHandles
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I have a tough time believing most guitarists have never considered it. We're an intelligent bunch, not?
I do remember there was a jazz guitarist (whose name escapes me) who advocated tuning all the strings in major thirds!
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3rds huh? ..... hmmmm........ er..... my brain hurts......
But back to 4ths, EADGCF. I can see how it messes with simple chords, especially barre chords, so classical, folk, rock, country, blues etc wouldn't get on with it. But for the jazz guys, who needs barre chords? Voicing chords should be no more difficult, yet the repeated patterns when changing string groups would yield huge advantages. As for scales, we're used to 6 fret "stretchy" positions, so changing the fingerings should be ok, again, especially when considering the dividend: everything looks the same when moving shapes around. Anyone tried this, at least for a laugh?Last edited by princeplanet; 06-23-2010 at 01:44 PM.
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Look up Matt Raines on youtube. He imports guitars to sell and teaches guitar. He tunes in fourths. He claims it is alot easier to play that way.
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The Major 3rd Tuning
Ralph Patt (R.I.P.) is the name.
An intriguing tuning, fun to try; I'm already too dumb for guitar
so another tuning is out of the question for me.
Also excellent is the 'Vanilla Book,' also on this site.
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Thanks! Yep, like I thought, he says everything is learnt 3 x faster! Damn, why didn't I think of this years ago? Originally Posted by Dookychase
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An interesting thing about the Major 3rds tuning is that the chromatic scale occurs in 4 frets instead of 5 rendering every key playable in one place without extensions. An extension between any strings yields a unison making them playable throughout the guitar register. 3 note power chords on the other hand would be harder to play.
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I think Matt Raines had some lessons on dvd. I checked his website and didn't see it. Perhaps I saw this on ebay, along with the guitars he sells.
If i remember right, he was selling the dvd for 40.00 bucks.
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The main reason the all fourths tuning hasn't caught on is because, as was said earlier, it makes it nearly impossible to play six-string voicings of any given chord.
Now, jazz players are kind of a minority when it comes to guitarists, so...all fourths, while useful, remains a jazz only thing.
Stanley Jordan, known for his two handed tapping, uses all fourths. So does Emett Chapman.
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So why haven't more jazz guitarists adopted it, I wonder?..... Makes sense Stanley Jordan is into it, obviously a methodical man, but then, so was Joe Pass, why didn't he do it? Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun
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I don't know much about Stanley, but can you answer this question: did he do much comping or chord melodies? My beef with the perfect 4th tuning is that chord options are fewer. If you are largely a single note player, this is not a big problem.
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Isn't it common to tune a tenor guitar in 4ths? I play mandolin and it is in 4ths. To be honest playing jazz on mando is fun but guitar does it better.
I've played guitar so long the B string doesn't bother me anymore.
Years ago I met a musician from Cuba who played a Les Paul but set it up in 3 double courses and tuned it in 4ths. He could play it fine but you really had to reach for some intervals.Last edited by Gramps; 06-24-2010 at 11:55 AM.
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I've thought about this too but never tried it. It does seem like it might make sense for single note playing but make chording problematic. Anyway, I've still got way too much to learn in standard tuning!
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I thought of Ralph, too. I keep meaning to tune my 7 string in thirds and give it a try, but never do. Too much to do on just six strings in standard tuning. The Vanilla Book IS excellent, and there are even backing tracks for many of them. Originally Posted by rabbit
Brad
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So most chords are easier with the 3rds tuning? What about hybrids of 4ths and thirds, ie 4th 3rd 4th 3rd etc
Last edited by princeplanet; 06-24-2010 at 12:39 PM.
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Tenor guitar is tuned in all fifths- something that I've tried on bass. It's interesting, but not my thing.
I think part of the reason a lot of people just went with the normal tuning is because the jazz cats usually learned by ear. They used standard tuning because that's what they were shown and it's what the masterful cats used.
It's tradition, basically.
A million dead people can't be wrong, right?
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Tenor guitar is tuned in fifths as is the mandolin and all the members of the violin family except string bass. Originally Posted by Gramps
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Tuning the guitar in fourths reduces its efficiency as a rhythm instrument.
Most of the historical literature that I've read indicates that the guitar was original designed as a portable accompaniment instrument for singers. Five strings at first then later the low E was added.
Given that guitarists of any style playing in groups spend 95% of their time on stage as an accompanist, it's easy to see why it's tuned the way it is. It works best that way.
Regards,
monk
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For what it's worth, I grabbed this lute tuning from Wikipedia:
Notice the lute is also tuned in 4ths except for the F-to-A major third, but this occurs between the 3rd and 4th string.
I have a vague (really vague) recollection that in classical guitar there is a tuning where you detune the G string to F#, recreating this tuning relationship. Hmmm...
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I spent months full time to learn the William Leavitt (Modern Method Guitar) system of 12 fingersets for guitar. Provides you with all 12 keys at any (!) position of the neck anytime and of course all the derived scales too.
Is a bit of work, months in my case, but once achieved, you don't go for a forth tuning, because it is already there, everything.
Just my 2 cents...
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I think what was giving the OP pause was this: Originally Posted by DonEsteban
FMaj7: 1322xx
BbMaj7: x1323x
EbMaj7: xx1333
If your guitar were tuned in 4ths, this would be:
FMaj7: 1322xx
BbMaj7: x1322x
EbMaj7: xx1322
But I often find myself whipping this off
Emin7: x7x78x
A7: 5x556x
Dmin7: x5x56x
G7: 3x34xx
Cmin7: x3x34x
...
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It's mostly a thing of what you expect, soundwise me thinks.
Everything said regarding fingering has a pro an a con. But the sound of the guitar, as we know it (and hopefully love it) is the sound of an instrument with the tuning it actually has.
Anything you change would definitely change the sound in comping as well as in soloing.
So let there be some experiments with drop D and other tunings, I for one don't really go for any alternative tunings.
Last edited by DonEsteban; 06-24-2010 at 05:12 PM. Reason: typo
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the five course (four doubled strings and one single string) guitar of the baroque time was preceded by the four course guitar of the sixteenth century (for which we have inherited volumes of music)...and back into the mists of time. earlier instruments are known through statues and illuminated manuscripts; little is known about the music made on them.
the mixed thirds and fourths tuning is documented at least as far back as the mid 1500's.
it is considered to facilitate chordal playing and single note playing with minimal left hand movement (wiki).
as noted, the renaissance lute utilized the same principle, differing in the placement of the M3. (yes, guitar editions of early music often call for 'lute tuning'-- 3rd to F#, which greatly facilitates difficult passages written for that relationship.)
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