Anyone tune all 6 strings to 4ths?

[christianm77]

Only two skinny strings change up a semitone, hardly any tension or playing difference at all. You might have to make a subtle adjustment on your truss rod...or maybe not.

I never break strings (12/52's) and I'm embarrassed to admit that one of my guitars, my practice guitar, hasn't seen new strings for almost 5 years. I almost hope something will break so I'll get off my ass and give it a new lease on life.

On the other hand, if you're going for that sweet Ted Greene sound, tune down to D - you'll definitely have to adjust your truss rod then though.

I had a go today, and noticed very little difference. And that's on a guitar strung with acoustic strings.

As a player who mostly uses moveable shapes and positions etc, I found P4 to be a bit of a headf**k although I was able to play bop heads in all 12 keys with a bit less thinking than the same task in standard, once I'd got a workable fingering together, which wasn't too bad. I'm not sure any player would find the switch to be effortless exactly.

I would be concerned about becoming de-skilled in standard tuning - but thinking from a P4 perspective is kind of what I do anyway and adjust my fingering to standard. Not having to make that adjustment takes some getting used to.

[P4guitar]

I had a go today, and noticed very little difference. And that's on a guitar strung with acoustic strings.

I play P4 on acoustic also and agree there's no significant tension difference between P4 and std.

As a player who mostly uses moveable shapes and positions etc, I found P4 to be a bit of a headf**k although I was able to play bop heads in all 12 keys with a bit less thinking than the same task in standard, once I'd got a workable fingering together, which wasn't too bad. I'm not sure any player would find the switch to be effortless exactly.

Everything in symmetrical tuning uses the same form for all positions and string sets.

Most players are very familiar with the d, g, b, and e string set but far less so with the e, a, d, and g set which is pure P4.

But as I've stated many times here and elsewhere, the transition is not without cost or doubt. One has to be motivated to switch, especially if one has already developed technical facility in std.

I would be concerned about becoming de-skilled in standard tuning - but thinking from a P4 perspective is kind of what I do anyway and adjust my fingering to standard. Not having to make that adjustment takes some getting used to.

I don't think many of us can be equally adept in both tunings. It's an all or nothing gambit for mortals like myself; one gives up something to get something. It's up to the individual to determine if the loss is worth the gain.

P4 tuning clarifies musical relationships and forces one to think differently about music. For me, the P4 fretboard map eliminates so many problems that the benefits far outweigh the costs. This will not be true for others. To each his own.

[DirtyGuitar]

"An experiment was carried out to determine limitations in listeners' abilities to identify the number of concurrently sounding voices in polyphonic textures. As the number of concurrent voices in a musical texture increases, expert musicians are both slower to respond to the addition of new voices and more prone to identify incorrectly the number of voices present. For musical textures employing relatively homogeneous timbres, the accuracy of identifying the number of concurrent voices drops markedly at the point where a three-voice texture is augmented to four voices. Beyond three voices, confusions become commonplace; the most frequent type of confusion is underestimation of the number of voices present. Voice entries were found to be perceived more easily than voice exits, and entries of outer voices were found to be identified more easily than entries of inner voices. Compared with a nonmusician subject, musicians were found to be more accurate and consistent in denumerating concurrent voices -- suggesting that an awareness of textural density may be a musically relevant skill."
David Huron
Music Perception, Vol. 6, No. 4 (1989) pp. 361-382.

4-note polyphony is more than enough for my brain... I would let the bassist play one note and I'll take the three others.

[P4guitar]

4-note polyphony is more than enough for my brain... I would let the bassist play one note and I'll take the three others.

Exactly!

Two notes can describe everything and most of my favorite soloists (Ted Greene, Kurt Rosenwinkle, Peter Bernstein, and many others) did/do almost everything within three and four notes.

Actually one note can describe everything if the harmony notes can be fit in timewise.

People who strive to play 5 and 6 note chord solos don't sound good to my ears because they've muddied everything up and slowed themselves down, sometimes to the point where they are forced to take artistic liberties with rubato.

[Robertkoa]

EADGBE is better for creating larger Harmonic Structures and more varied Harmonic Structures IMO than P4 due to the fact that you can do mini barrè to create three fourths or four - just like P4 but you can add a major triad with a mini barrè or a minor triad with a mini barrè and create Rhythmic Structures by moving them over a static lower figure or a riff..

I am sure there are plenty of cool Rhythmic and Harmonic things that can be done in P4 but you will run out of fingers on larger structures and can't create as many 5 and 6 note structures.





The same things that make EADGBE a PITA make it more versatile for Complex Harmonic Rhythms and structures.

'But Robert - you can play the EXACT Rhythms on a
P4 Tuned Guitar as you can on an EADGBE Guitar .'

Yes but I said Harmonic Rhythms where you have harmonic motion reinforcing rhythm or self syncopating harmonically..moving triads rhythmically over another structure , rhythmic extensions , suspensions etc. You run out of fingers in P4.
EADGBE is set up for the Grand Barrè - but also Mini
Barrè with Index , and fingers M and A - and you can create Harmonic Motion this way - and get really cool 5 and 6 note voicings which are more versatile as Pivot Chords etc. because of the additional voices..
I do this every day - I am not quoting some Theory Book ..




Somehow the Guitar Founding Fathers got it right not just for CAGED stuff and Classical / Flamenco- but for other Inside Sounding larger structures , slash chords etc.[ IF you can easily do 6 fret stretches in context and in Rhythm- ] most Jazzers don't need these because they are more interested in Improv. than Composition..


EADGBE is a PITA but the most versatile IMO
harmonically for larger structures, Closed Voicings/ slash chords , polychords, versatile Pivot Chords etc IMO even for Inside Sounding Chords if you cover 6 frets and rarely 7 frets.

But for improvising ...all over the neck in contrapuntal improvising and beautiful moving voices in up to four part harmony ..I can see how P4 might easily win ..depending on the Player.

Improvising in two voices is a great exercise for clearing my mind and I do it -sometimes it sounds pretty good sometimes not - it is not the Money part of my Playing so I don't care but here's where the uniformity of P4 would really come in handy- I agree.

AND we are already Playing in P4 on the lowest 4 strings now - so it makes total sense to go all the way for certain people.

I am a Harmonic Rhythmatist...lol so P4 does not make sense for me .

You can fairly easily play stuff like the above on Guitar...as part of a Rhythm Track or Comping .so when I say Piano I mean simple Piano- but I mean Piano.

I guess I could say Rhythmic Jazzy R&B Classical Guitar influenced stuff - but I have never heard them do that.

Keyboardists do it all the time.

OK - maybe I am not making myself clear here:

The Hancock Piano Part above is in a similar Range for Guitar..I can play sometthing very similar on the Guitar ..many people can- you play the riff on bottom strings with pick or thumb and pluck and fingerpick the top Voices simultaneously.

In P4 it is more difficult because you can't use the Barrè to hold the Top Voices while you play the Riff.
You run out of fingers.

Of course IF you are playing Counterpoint and implying the chords with 2 of 3 voices - I believe you-
not my Fortè and again EADGBE might get in your way...

I am trying to Rock and Groove the House with big chords instead- totally different Goals and Skillsets !

[P4guitar]

Robert,

I have trouble understanding your meaning. Would you consider posting some examples from you or anyone else on guitar demonstrating what you're saying?

Thanks.

[Robertkoa]

Robert,

I have trouble understanding your meaning. Would you consider posting some examples from you or anyone else on guitar demonstrating what you're saying?

Thanks.

Interesting...I will be releasing a Pro CD in 2018 with
extremely strong grooves with R&B/Jazz Fusion which features 'Jazz ' type Guitar Voicings but much stronger Harmonic Rhythms even on the Guitar itself but also on more interaction between the bass lines and drums- and will demonstrate all that I say on the Forum...

For now:




Simply - you can't play this Chord in P4.

8 -6- 5- 3- 3- 3 And bounce between it and the minor b6 Voicing while the top strings are ringing..

I can strum it or play a riff on the low strings and simultaneously pluck or strum the top strings and/Or pluck the top strings in 5/8 4/4 etc.in R&B , Bossa ,Swing, Latin Feel etc. or
like a Classical Guitarist etc . or SIMPLER like Kenny Burrell might have..only he didn't -or like Keith Richards lol or like Jobim ..but they didn't either..

You can probably do a workaround with an open string in P4 but I am not going to stay in Cminor for the whole tune..you run out of fingers.

But as I've said for smaller structures P4 is more transparent and being less explored possibly has many unique Voicings..

Nowhere near as many full voicings ( not merely implied ) as EADGBE - though, even though EADGBE is a PITA.



You might listen to Yamandu Costa although he is more Flamenco with simpler voicings and 'busier 'than my Rhythms are.

[P4guitar]

I see what you're saying...and I partially disagree. For now I'll ignore harmonic rhythm, which is independent of tuning.

But first I would like to address something people don't seem understand about the fretboard map, the hand/wrist angles.

Some chords are organized loosely about a line ACROSS the fretboard - think barre chord, 9th, 7#9, 6/9 chords, etc.

The other chords are organized about a diagonal line:

One diagonal, I call it the backward slant, has the index or middle finger on the higher note strings closer to the nut and the pinky on the low note strings, closer to the bridge. Think the classic M7th or m9th chord of stacked thirds or your example of the 8 6 5 3 3 3 version of a minor 9th.

The other diagonal is the opposite, I call it the forward slant. It has the index or middle finger on the lower note strings closer to the nut and the pinky on the higher note strings, closer to the bridge. Think of stacked fifths or in P4 tuning, a version of the m7b5 I use frequently, because it is so easy to grip, is 1 x x 4 3 5 (root, b5, b7, 4).

When one compares std tuning to P4, there is a difference in distance/reach for the outside notes between the two fretboard maps. Std tuning favors the backward slant, like your example, because std places the notes on the highest strings one fret forward towards the bridge. P4 tuning moves the notes on the highest strings one fret backward towards the nut, which favors the forward slant.

You are correct, your 6 note voicing above is not possible in P4, but it's not IMO necessary. It is a m9th chord with a redundant 5th. I would simply convert it to a 5 note chord, 8 6 8 7 7 in P4 (root, m7, b7, 9, 5), with no redundant notes. My version is much easier to grip and faster, works on two string sets (E string to B/C string and A string to E/F string), and most importantly, it's indistinguishable to the audience.

As DirtyGuitar posted above, people simply can't hear too many notes - they clog the ears. This is why the top players emphasize the important notes and rarely play more than 3 or 4 notes at a time, including Yamandu Costa (who is not a flamenco player but someone steeped in classical and Brazilian jazz). There's an even more important reason for this, many voices slow the fretting hand down which hampers, if not destroys, harmonic rhythm.

All I play nowadays is what some would erroneously call chord melody, solo improvisations where all the parts are my responsibility. P4 tuning makes this easier FOR ME because the map is simplified so when I change keys in my harmonic improvisation, my underpowered brain is not overwhelmed.

Most players I see on this forum, play short form chord melody ARRANGEMENTS, not IMPROVISATIONS and never change keys ala Ted Greene mid-stream. IMO, they do this not because they're inferior players, but because the std fretboard map is too complex for non-geniuses to
a: improvise easily while carrying the harmonic load and
b: change keys without memorizing 3 different forms of the same voicing.

For me, P4 tuning has simplified solo guitar improvisation and brought it within my grasp, whereas in std I had no hope at all.

Bottom line, for any voicing in std tuning, there's an equivalent voicing in P4 or a perfectly acceptable substitute. Best yet, the P4 fretboard map clarifies harmonic relationships leading to more harmonic adventures.

You said this earlier:

Yes but I said Harmonic Rhythms where you have harmonic motion reinforcing rhythm or self syncopating harmonically..moving triads rhythmically over another structure , rhythmic extensions , suspensions etc. You run out of fingers in P4.

I don't see how this is not doable in P4. You'll need to provide an example.

[P4guitar]

We're cool.

To your questions:

My very subjective opinion is that yes, there are more possibilities for cool voicings in std, but not very many. Those voicings in std do come with a steep learning curve and in my experience, all of them can be emulated in P4 by taking out a note or restacking the voicing.

P4 simplifies the learning curve, but that's useless to those who are already achieving their goals in std. It could conceivably be useful to those who have specific needs and have determined that P4 will achieve their goals in less time (moi, after almost 30 years in std).

P4 requires more hand stretches. Anyone can experience that for themselves just by playing chords on their lower four strings, the e, a, d, g strings. Even so, there are a lot of P4 voicings that only require two or three frets, which std players should already know, but often don't because they don't isolate chords on the lower 4 strings much (precisely because of the stretches and added memory work).

P4 definitely clarifies the fretboard into an easily understood map, making key changes much easier, even for chord melodies. P4 encourages one to use the entire string set (see above).

Which tuning goes furthest? Only you can answer that.

Putting your work out there:

If playing along with iRealB and video recording simultaneously aren't working, why not just skip the backing tracks and do a video or even an audio only recording of your solo work? Most here already do that and it meets everyone's expectations.

Good luck!

[Robertkoa]

Because I want to show it off against even the Primitive but effective Piano Drums Backings in Ireal.
Possibly my greatest asset is timing and I have extreme picking skills which I will demonstrate on Ireal. Youtube will be in 2018 with Broadcast Quality Audio..and links for Sales...I am not cute anymore so may use strippers on the Videos lol ( joke ).

I am actually a Beta Tester for that App but can't download the Beta 8.0 either .7
In Google Play the Update is there but it 'thinks' I already have it lol.

I will have it worked out soon I think.

I think even against a click or Basic Drum Track you will get it more in Context.

It is a great Practice Tool for Improv. though..and you can change the chords..put modulations of your own...just that the Rhythms are primitive and I can't voice the Keyboard or Program precise parts for each thing like a Film or Record or Commercial..

Many of the 'Smooth Jazz' Tunes are Produced the way I will Produce..though I don't do 'smooth Jazz'
and I will have live percussion and Sax on some things and Keys once I have the Music working..I have been planning this a long time ..but my chops came late in the Game .I know why now.

I could have done a boring CD with me as Soloist before lol...but me as Writer /Producer would not hire me as the Soloist.
I thought I was going to get to this point much earlier.

Remembering that I can create Radio Ready Rhythm Tracks including Guitar ..then Solo over the Rhythm section.. I have a lot of picking skill...so it will be easier for me to attract attention that way and possibly break new ground that way than Solo Guitar.

With Solo Guitar - you Guys do 10 times the Work and get 7% of the Recognition..not fair but partly true ...
I may do some Solo Guitar- but with a Rhythm Section underneath I think..

Jazz Guitarists do not seem to be creating extremely strong Harmonic Rhythms on the Guitar ..some stuff I do is more laid back but generally much stronger grooves..

It would be physically difficult for you to Play ...

I took what you asked as a friendly challenge - not a personal affront to me..

I should be able to easily back up claims I make here..

Some of the Rhythms sound like two Guitars ..as Flamenco or Bossa sometimes do ...only it's Progressive R&B ...so some voicings in P4 will work others won't...you run out of Fingers faster in P4 on larger Voicings .
The only real drawback and harder to do Minor Seconds and Major Seconds with 5 and 6 notes.

For what you do ...probably won't matter ...to break new ground harmonically and Rhythmically ..different story.

As I have said your idea of a strong groove and mine are going to be vastly different .

My stuff...they can try to sit still or they can listen ...it's engineered ..it's somewhat new ...

'So if it's that good , Robert why not put it on the internet uncopywrighted in half assed form ?'

Lol.

[rodolfoguitarra]

A little bit about guitar history. Here is a page from the book ´´Musical Instruction for the Spanish Guitar by Gaspar Sanz 1674´´The tuning was ADGBE, and the tablature at that time was inverted. Since 1674 the Spanish language has changed, so the music, technology, etc. It is not logical to defend standard tuning. This tuning made sense at that time, not now in my opinion. The music was a lot simple than today´s.

[christianm77]

I have no problem with P4 tuning in theory. Makes a lot of sense.

In practice, what do we do as teachers and players?

[rodolfoguitarra]

I have no problem with P4 tuning in theory. Makes a lot of sense.

In practice, what do we do as teachers and players?

You can teach in standard, or the studand may listen instead of watch. I don't know any band that require 100% like covers (unless you are in a Hendrix cover band)

Enviado desde mi SM-T550 mediante Tapatalk

[rodolfoguitarra]

I have no problem with P4 tuning in theory. Makes a lot of sense.

In practice, what do we do as teachers and players?

Also, if you do not need to forget the english to learn spanish, you can speak both

Enviado desde mi SM-T550 mediante Tapatalk

[sumpe]

Hi there.
First of all, many thanks for the informative discussion on P4 (perfect fourths) tuning.
I have been for 1 week now playing on P4. I have however gone back and fourth, and one of the things that bothered me a bit was difficulty with strumming with chords - the old barre chord loss. And I can not explain why, but I miss being able to do a diminished tried using 4 frets and having a barred 5-1-3 major at my disposal.
I have kept figuring chords and inversions or 'stacked' chords and realise there is a lot one can accommodate for, and some of the voicing I am finding for big chords are awesome, for example
G major: 3-2-5-4-2-2
Em7/G: 3-2-2-4-4-2

I then decided to try out, before I commit to anything the following tuning: EADGCE (P4 for the first 5 strings and then M3 for the last one C-E). With this I can play chords I was before, on standard tuning, playing with the bass note on the A/5th string now on the D/4th string, with the same fingering, and playing barred chords on the A string is good. However, I lost some of the 6 string full chords as I showed above. It is like everything got shifted down one string, compared to Standard tuning, but of course the E is still there.

I was wondering if someone here tried this approach, EADGCE with good results. To me, it sort of cuts the work instead of a theoretical 2/3rds, by just 1/3 as there is a M3 now with the advantage of having more using top 3, top 4 and top 5 strumming standard chords. I felt initially that this is a good compromise. It is not as straight forward to transpose licks, scales, but it feels like an amount of work that is also already carved in by Std tuning.

Any thoughts?? I am more concerned with some oversight - something I am missing which would be a significant detriment.
PS: I play rock, bossa (usually with singers) and a little jazz. I like hendrix too, and I often think of the guitar to compose. I have been on Std tuning for 25years or so and I got stuck with trying to learn stuff with my limited time because I also practice/play saxophone, which somehow, though I started later much later, has been easier to improvise with...

[jrapp]

Mandolins are typically tuned in 5ths, same as a violin.

[John Tom]

Does standard tuning exist on the guitar for the same reason that there are black notes on the piano, just to a lesser extent?

[christianm77]

You'd have to go back to the 15th century and ask some Vihuelists. They probably wouldn't know either.

But I might add having the outside strings at the same note is pretty handy for open position playing of music in one key - and most stringed instrument playing was open position early on in the more comfortable keys. That's why they added more strings to the Lute.

(Also it's more of an aid to fretboard mapping than it might seem.)

Also, lutes, viols, guitars etc - the irregularly tuned stringed instruments - were considered amateur's instruments. Being able to play some pretty pieces in friendly keys and open positions is quite a large part of the deal I think....

[christianm77]

A lot of those cats could only read tabs, as well.

Nothing new under the sun...

Here's a page using tab to show guitarists how to play from notation and figured bass (i.e. their equivalent chord symbols)



So maybe there's a trade off between the accessibility of attractive music in open tunings and a tuning that might make it easier to conceptualise and read music on the instrument? Maybe.