The Dominant Approach...

[princeplanet]

In response to the thread about the Minor Approach, I was wondering how many of you guys prefer playing Dominant material over the ii as well as V ?

Me, I think in terms of m7b5, or m6, so over say a Dm7 going to some kind of G7, I'm often targeting b, d, f, or a. I believe this is a kind of inverse of the idea of Targeting Dm7 chord tones against G7, which seems quite common, perhaps more common than the "Dominant" Approach?

Please share your thoughts if you have any.

[Mark Kleinhaut]

I have deleted my comments. I didn’t mean to stir up controversy, hurt anyone’s feelings or suggest anything dogmatic. Peace out.

[princeplanet]

I often read these sorts of approach discussions and wonder if anyone actually thinks this way when they play. I don’t do anything like when playing. Ear training is the only reason for anything academic and by that I mean being able to hear the notes, imagine hearing the notes, imagine playing what you hear, and finally actually playing what you hear. I do think the labels (and all the pedagogy that goes with it) are useful as a memory aids. But it’s only an aside, a series of footnotes or cheat sheets, and actually has little to do with hearing and playing. Just my 2 cents.

Well, yeah, it started out like cheat sheets, true. But after many years, it shapes how I hear things "in my head", and I actually like what I hear in my head these days. Whilst things later evolved to a point where I'll use all 12 notes over anything, training myself to hear stock ii-V's as just V was important in forming my personal Bop approach at a structured, fundamental level. FWIW I'm not too interested in free or loose styles of improv.

[Tal_175]

In response to the thread about the Minor Approach, I was wondering how many of you guys prefer playing Dominant material over the ii as well as V ?

Me, I think in terms of m7b5, or m6, so over say a Dm7 going to some kind of G7, I'm often targeting b, d, f, or a. I believe this is a kind of inverse of the idea of Targeting Dm7 chord tones against G7, which seems quite common, perhaps more common than the "Dominant" Approach?

Please share your thoughts if you have any.

People who use the dominant approach use it over tonic minors as well, not just ii-V's. For example over the I chord of minor blues (in D), G7 or Bmin7b5 gets you the 6th and 11'th which are good tonic minor notes.

[pamosmusic]

I often read these sorts of approach discussions and wonder if anyone actually thinks this way when they play. I don’t do anything like when playing. Ear training is the only reason for anything academic and by that I mean being able to hear the notes, imagine hearing the notes, imagine playing what you hear, and finally actually playing what you hear. I do think the labels (and all the pedagogy that goes with it) are useful as a memory aids. But it’s only an aside, a series of footnotes or cheat sheets, and actually has little to do with hearing and playing. Just my 2 cents.

Well yeah.

I mean … I think an essential part of ear training is giving the thing a name. Doesn’t really matter what you call it, but we can’t identify things we can’t name.

The process of practicing this way would be as a way to name the sound and identify what you’re hearing more readily.

So it is literally footnotes and cheat sheets. Calling it that isn’t a dismissal, it’s an affirmation of its utility.

Im probably on the very far end of the analytical side of the spectrum when I practice, but I still just kind of play by ear when I’m actually playing. The analysis is how I train my ear. Obviously I find myself thinking when I’m improvising sometimes, but that’s just because I’m not operating at 100% all the time. If I am, it’s just ear that I’ve trained during the practice time. I don’t really think anyone is very different in that respect.

[AllanAllen]

In response to the thread about the Minor Approach, I was wondering how many of you guys prefer playing Dominant material over the ii as well as V ?

Me, I think in terms of m7b5, or m6, so over say a Dm7 going to some kind of G7, I'm often targeting b, d, f, or a. I believe this is a kind of inverse of the idea of Targeting Dm7 chord tones against G7, which seems quite common, perhaps more common than the "Dominant" Approach?

Please share your thoughts if you have any.

I’m still green and I hit both chords. I never think of this when I’m playing.

[Bobby Timmons]

Mark, you're mad at theory. :P All music isn't ear. Many great musicians use(d) theory to help organize their music and build their chops. Of course you want to have the ability to hear up stuff so it sounds good and not like formulating your music synthetically, but all music isn't ear.

I don't usually use the dominant approach, but I like the effect it creates. This is taught in the BH school and I'm getting into it a bit. I like doing different things on the minor. Reading thru the Bud Powell and CP omnibooks, they'll do different things like harmonic minor on the 2. So it's clearly not wrong to outline the 2.

[Tal_175]

I often read these sorts of approach discussions and wonder if anyone actually thinks this way when they play. I don’t do anything like when playing. Ear training is the only reason for anything academic and by that I mean being able to hear the notes, imagine hearing the notes, imagine playing what you hear, and finally actually playing what you hear. I do think the labels (and all the pedagogy that goes with it) are useful as a memory aids. But it’s only an aside, a series of footnotes or cheat sheets, and actually has little to do with hearing and playing. Just my 2 cents.

Do you improvise over standards in the jazz style? This is the sort of thing people do in the practice room especially. Melodies that outline chords with a lot of 8th notes is a characteristic of the style. If you already do that by ear or not interested in playing in this style then of course you wouldn't practice this way. But even George Benson said when he first started out he was more a blues/soul player and he had hard time playing the changes to standards. He had to work on it. So it doesn't just happen to most people without some deliberate practice.

[pamosmusic]

I’m still green and I hit both chords. I never think of this when I’m playing.

I mean, it’s fine to play both. I think the liberating thing isn’t that you should just play one, but that you can play either.

Dm G7 can be

G7 …
Dm …
Dm G7
G7 Dm

Along with any of those nice diatonic subs you use over them, and tons if other moves. It’s a blob of cadence and whatever sounds good moving through it will work.

[Christian Miller]

I just play dominant scale stuff. I’ve got a bag of stuff I’ve worked on based on the scale, and that can be “whatever.” Any of the diatonic triads or chords, plus the tritone subs, back door etc and important minors are available, which doesn’t mean I use them equally.

I suspect I gravitate to the IIm a lot but tbh you’d have to transcribe me. And I wouldn’t recommend that as a great use of one’s time.

I can tell you what I’ve practiced and the lame licks I keep playing. Does that help?

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[princeplanet]

...
I can tell you what I’ve practiced and the lame licks I keep playing. Does that help?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Sure, it's bound to be less lame-ass than what I do!

[Christian Miller]

Well they sound lame to me because I have to live with them 24/7.

Maybe much like my repertoire of dad jokes, one who spends too much time with me will start rolling their eyes.

Tbh though I think music can take a bit of repetition. The secret is in varied repetition and combination, so you can take a handful of elements and keep them fresh. Or so I’m told.

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[StevenA]

Not just on ii, but every chord form. Dominant all day I say. And if I’m feeling frisky, then I’ll take b9s with me, because that’s jazz.
Dominants lead more easily to everything thing else. You could have a career just playing dominants, I’m sure some have.

[Cunamara]

I think that, to Mark's deleted point, many great jazz musicians have stated in interviews that they think about these things in the practice room, but don't think about them on the bandstand. And I do think it's a good point in that part of the purposes of practicing these things is to get the sound in our ears and the mechanics under our fingers so that we can call them up and use them without having to stop and think about them.

Regarding the "two chord" method advocated by some folks like Joe Pass, in which there are basically two chords, the V and the tonic- it's not universally accepted. I play with a horn player every week who is a diehard bebop player and if he does not hear the ii going to the V going to the tonic, he'll call it out. "Hey, man, where was the ii chord?" And if you experiment with playing through a standard, omitting the ii and only using the V in those cadences, you will hear a difference. The voice leading changes and not for the better. The notes in an Amin6 and a D9 might be almost the same on the guitar, but they're not quite the same in function. The G needs to lead to the F# sometimes.

The original bop guys played hard stuff, and we've been trying to simplify it and make it easier on ourselves ever since. We may lose something vital in that translation.