What is your primary reference for practicing improvisation?

[Tal_175]

Improvisation requires getting good at generating melodic ideas in real time. I think we rely on various references in order to manage this complexity. That requires internalizing these references at a high level. When you practice which of these tools/references are most important to your process?

We can discuss each of these elements more in this thread and how each of them can be useful in realtime to different players.

[joe2758]

I use basically CAGED in major and dominant, but mostly as a guide rather than specific fingerings.

My teacher currently has me using triads as my reference and then the other tones around them. The type of triad shapes on 1 note per string. So I have been working on that for about a month. But, I still use the CAGED shapes for BH added note rules and arps.

Edit: Oh sorry I didn't see the poll. disregard.

[AllanAllen]

Aural I guess... I use scales and arpeggios as a roadmap to the sounds I'm thinking about. So I think lot of people would say theory for me? But I'm not a music theory guy.

[Tal_175]

I use basically CAGED in major and dominant, but mostly as a guide rather than specific fingerings.

My teacher currently has me using triads as my reference and then the other tones around them. The type of triad shapes on 1 note per string. So I have been working on that for about a month. But, I still use the CAGED shapes for BH added note rules and arps.

Edit: Oh sorry I didn't see the poll. disregard.

No worries. Your post is relevant. I am interested in hearing about people's insights into their own processes.

[pamosmusic]

I answered theory because the question was about practicing improvising.

I use theory sort of as the engine for that, I guess?

I train muscle memory into my hands and sounds into my ears but I’m usually coming up with the ideas in the first place because I *think* they might be interesting.

For actual improvising, I’m obviously trying not to think at all. Though I usually do, it’s probably more muscle memory and ear.

[Tal_175]

I answered theory because the question was about practicing improvising.

I use theory sort of as the engine for that, I guess?

I train muscle memory into my hands and sounds into my ears but I’m usually coming up with the ideas in the first place because I *think* they might be interesting.

For actual improvising, I’m obviously trying not to think at all. Though I usually do, it’s probably more muscle memory and ear.

Yes, in a way it's hard to separate these categories. It's more like a flow chart. Our knowledge and approach to music informs how we visualize the fretboard which then becomes muscle memory which in turn trains our ears by repetition. At least that's been my process. I picked visual and aural but actually musical knowledge and fretboard visualisation are my primary practice focus. I am lately questioning making the aural part a biproduct of this process rather than making it more of a focus.

[AllanAllen]

Okay, I'm firmly in aural. When I practice, I transcribe licks and play with them through the changes.

[Tal_175]

Okay, I'm firmly in aural. When I practice, I transcribe licks and play with them through the changes.

When you play licks through the changes are you doing that purely by ear or are you relying on visual fretboard references? If the latter, then you're also practicing making these references instinctual. If the former, then I'd say it's purely aural.

[joe2758]

flow chart is right. Mine is like theory, visualize and hopefully have an aural perception of how it will sound. Muscle memory is my weakness

[AllanAllen]

When you play licks through the changes are you doing that purely by ear or are you relying on visual fretboard references? If the latter, then you're also practicing making these references instinctual. If the former, then I'd say it's purely aural.

They’ve kind of meshed at this point so it’s hard to say one way or the other. All the major scale shedding has made a scale, an arpeggio and a lick into one cloud of options in my head.

[Bflat233]

When improvising, I am using all of those senses to some extent, trusting that the effort put in during practice will flow subconsciously. When I practice, I rely theory, reading, tone, and muscle memory develops over time for chord shapes and melodic lines. Visually, it helps tremendously to be conscious about where I am in the form of the song, see the chords and common tones in the progression coming up, and rely on memory to serve-up a 2-5-1 riff I've practiced and memorized and fits in the space I've got.

I will say this, I've been working through Jerry Bergonzi's Melodic Structures and so far in the book, he has the focus on intervals. Shapes certainly help, but I find that using this method I've unlocked a multitude of shapes in any position, so it does come down to knowing the intervals and the notes across the fretboard.

[digger]

I chose muscle memory because I think it's closest to where I am now. It would be nice to say aural, but I'm not hearing a great deal in my head when it comes to improvising, so that's out.

The way it works for me is that I learn the melody and the changes, so there's an aural element at that stage, but when it comes to playing a solo I usually start with that melody which I've learnt - so there's the muscle memory. I will, to use a technical term, fart around with the melody a bit, but even then I'm using notes that I know (from my practice) will sound okay, not notes that I'm "hearing". If there's some space in the melody and I'm in the mood I might throw in a pre-learned lick - muscle memory again - or maybe drop in a scale fragment or an arpeggio. If I get a second chorus (usually I'm playing to myself so this does happen now and again) I might play a greater amount of pre-learned licks and arpeggios.

More and more I'm enjoying rhythm guitar and I do enjoy dropping in rhythmic licks, chord-based licks. They fill up the sound nicely, give me a moment's respite from thinking, tend to drive the solo forward well, and can actually raise the intensity. I'd like to use octaves for the same reason, but I've not practiced them enough yet.

So for me it's all pre-learned stuff that I have under my fingers. I hope to change all of this one day...

Derek

[Bobby Timmons]

I break it down to ear, theory, technical skills, and creativity and I try to build them and use them all during improv. Visual would be under theory for me and muscle memory would be under technical skills.

[ragman1]

What is your primary reference for improvisation?

That's easy - Me. I don't separate it into primary, secondary, etc. Everything works together. It's holistic.

(If it wasn't, it wouldn't be improvisation, it would be something else, something mechanical. Mechanical improvisation is repetition and repetition, unless it's done deliberately to produce an effect, isn't improvisation, it's imitation. An imitative solo isn't improvisation).

Well, you did ask :-)

[GuyBoden]

I start by hearing or theoretically analysing something, I notate it, then I repeatedly practice it, then I repeatedly practice it, then I repeatedly practice it, repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly.........................


Did I mention that I repeatedly practice it, repeatedly.

[Tal_175]

What is your primary reference for improvisation?


That's easy - Me. I don't separate it into primary, secondary, etc. Everything works together. It's holistic.

(If it wasn't, it wouldn't be improvisation, it would be something else, something mechanical. Mechanical improvisation is repetition and repetition, unless it's done deliberately to produce an effect, isn't improvisation, it's imitation. An imitative solo isn't improvisation).

Well, you did ask :-)

That's true when you're playing. But isn't practice a different mindset for you?

[ragman1]

That's true when you're playing. But isn't practice a different mindset for you?

You didn't ask about practice. Practice isn't improvisation either.

(The word 'improvise' comes from Latin improvisus which means unforeseen, not prepared beforehand).

[Tal_175]

You didn't ask about practice. Practice isn't improvisation either.

(The word 'improvise' comes from Latin improviso which means unforeseen, not prepared beforehand).

You are right, I did say improvisation in the title but I explained it a bit more in the first post. Practicing towards improvisation is what I really meant.

[Tal_175]

One of the reasons I've been thinking about this lately is something Pat Martino said about how he came up with his lines in Linear Expressions. He said he doesn't analyze why a line works, he just finds lines that he likes over a given chord and learns them. I mean something along these lines.

I do the opposite. For example I analyzed his lines in Linear Expressions. I broke them up into smaller pieces. I worked on them by moving them to different parts of the fretboard using visual references. Some of these smaller lines did endup showing up in my playing and I could hear them, but I didn't practice them in an "ear first" way. It was a different workflow.

I find the approach Pat Martino described very freeing. Ie. don't break the line down, just treat it as a melody over a chord. Then play it over the chord in different keys by ear. It's sort of like the Gypsy jazz tradition I guess.

[ragman1]

Obviously practice is a different mindset. If you don't know something well you have to become familiar with it. Hopefully that's assimilated into your being and comes out in unexpected ways when improvising.

[Skip Ellis]

Melody, Melody, Melody. I'm not much of an improviser - too much a 'square' melody kinda guy but, if I do any, I learn the melody so well that I can take certain liberties with it. I don't do 'jams' (none around here anyway) with endless improv being the whole point. When I play for people, I play tunes with melodies they (and I) want to hear - I feel like, if I'm playing for a non 'jazz' audience (which is pretty much always) and play 6 choruses of improv over "Watch What Happens", I'll probably put them to sleep. I pretty much play a tune through straight, then some light improv still sticking close to the melody, then the head again and out. Of course, I only play solo, so that's what works for me; I play some tunes completely solo and some with simple BIAB drums/bass and maybe piano. Again, the key, at least for me, is learn the changes and melody so well that I can't screw it up when I do get away from the melody. I firmly believe that a lot of the old timers (Herb, Barney, even Wes) played those standards for so many years that they were ingrained so deeply that they could improvise on them the same way we can do it without thinking on a I-IV-V.

[ragman1]

... played those standards for so many years that they were ingrained so deeply that they could improvise on them the same way we can do it without thinking on a I-IV-V.

That's it.

[Mick-7]

I'm questioning your survey categories... you can only practice improvising by doing it, i.e., by improvising. Visual cues, muscle memory, and theory are technical aides for it but are incidental to the aural process of playing what you hear in your head.

However, "musical knowledge" is a component of the aural process because you have to have some intellectual understanding of how what you're hearing applies to the musical arrangement you're playing - unless one plays completely by ear, but I think you'd have a hard time finding a jazz musician who does that, the music is too complex.

I think your question is actually: what methods do you use to improve your ability to improvise?

[Tal_175]

I'm questioning your survey categories... you can only practice improvising by doing it, i.e., by improvising. Visual cues, muscle memory, and theory are technical aides for it but are incidental to the aural process of playing what you hear in your head.

However, "musical knowledge" is a component of the aural process because you have to have some intellectual understanding of how what you're hearing applies to the musical arrangement you're playing - unless one plays completely by ear, but I think you'd have a hard time finding a jazz musician who does that, the music is too complex.

I think your question is actually: what methods do you use to improve your ability to improvise?

Maybe I should change the title. I explained what I meant in the first post but not the title. The way posting polls works on the forum is you first write your description then add the poll. But that's not the order people see it obviously.

[Tal_175]

I've changed the thread title, but I can't change the poll title.