What is your primary reference for practicing improvisation?

[princeplanet]

He could have not know any theory and still have awareness of the changes and outlined them. I don't think of hearing and outlining changes as theory. No doubt there are different pathways to achieve this skill.

Yeah, see, to me, awareness of the changes is theory...

[Tal_175]

Here is Pat Metheny's opinion on how to become a good story teller with improvisation. What he describes is also consistent with my experience. The more fluid I get with chord tones, the freer I feel and the more I like the ideas that I hear in the moment.

Pat Metheny : Question & Answer

[Mick-7]

Man you’re thinking so hard about this you missed where it’s basically rhythm changes. Last 16. See what I mean?
You’re so deep in the woods you lost the forest for the trees.

I haven’t gone back to listen with this transcription in hand, so it might be from a different recording, but for me, Eternal Triangle is from Sonny Side Up. Absolute all timer.

I was simply labeling the tonal centers of the chord changes - I've never heard the tune.

There is even a simpler harmonic mapping of Sonny Stitt's solo, the chromatic scale covers everything. 12 note harmony.
Depends on one's perception of harmonic nuances, mappings at different harmonic resolution levels are possible.

I mentioned this earlier. Apparently Peter thinks I'm joking when I say, "I only need one scale, the 12 tone scale, to improvise." However, I don't think I explained that I think of it as two scales, the scale of the tonal center I'm in, say C Major, and a scale 1/2 step away from it, could be either B Major or Db Major. Two scale tones will be repeated when you do this: 1/2 step up = Tonic scale 4th & Root, 1/2 step down = Tonic 3rd & 7th. This "strategy" gives you the set of diatonic notes and the set of nondiatonic chromatic notes.

He could have not known any theory and still have awareness of the changes and outlined them. I don't think of hearing and outlining changes as theory. No doubt there are different pathways to achieve this skill.

What are the odds that someone would know how to outline the chord changes without understanding basic theory? Very low, I'd say.

[pamosmusic]

I was simply labeling the tonal centers of the chord changes - I've never heard the tune.

Yeah but you don’t need to have heard the tune to see what this tune is. If your analysis makes it more difficult to connect a piece of music to the larger literature, rather than less, then it’s a bad analysis, frankly.

[Mick-7]

Yeah but you don’t need to have heard the tune to see what this tune is. If your analysis makes it more difficult to connect a piece of music to the larger literature, rather than less, then it’s a bad analysis, frankly.

If you say so... There are various takes on Rhythm Changes, and I guess I don't think of mapping out the primary tonal centers as "analysis" - it's quite rudimentary, only takes a minute.

[pamosmusic]

If you say so... There are various takes on Rhythm Changes, and I guess I don't think of mapping out the primary tonal centers as "analysis" - it's quite rudimentary, only takes a minute.

Sure - the bridge here vibes the same as a rhythm changes bridge but it starts a little further away on the cycle and does that chromatic motion.

The A section is the same though. And you landed on this …

D Dorian-Melodic Minor: 1 bar/ C Major: 1 bar/ D Major: 1 bar/ C Major: 1 bar /

… for four bars of a rhythm changes in C.

I guess if I were to bring such an abstract critique into something more concrete …

1. This bears no resemblance to what is actually played and doesn’t really bear any resemblance to the content of other improvisations on the same changes.

2. I would be VERY interested to see the musical result of an analysis like this. I’d put money on it either not sounding like the component parts you listed, or not sounding much like the underlying harmony,

[Mick-7]

Sure - the bridge here vibes the same as a rhythm changes bridge but it starts a little further away on the cycle and does that chromatic motion.

The A section is the same though. And you landed on this … for four bars of a rhythm changes in C.

I guess if I were to bring such an abstract critique into something more concrete …

1. This bears no resemblance to what is actually played and doesn’t really bear any resemblance to the content of other improvisations on the same changes.

2. I would be VERY interested to see the musical result of an analysis like this. I’d put money on it either not sounding like the component parts you listed, or not sounding much like the underlying harmony,

Dm-G7 bears no resemblance to the C major scale, and Em-A7 bears no resemblance to the D Major scale?

That was the extent of my analysis!

[pamosmusic]

Dm-G7 bears no resemblance to the C major scale, and Em-A7 bears no resemblance to the D Major scale?

That was the extent of my analysis!

D Dorian melodic minor?

And in context, D major doesn’t make a ton of sense. If it’s a ii V to D then sure. But it’s not.

Context

Context

Context

[Mick-7]

D Dorian melodic minor?

Oh that... I was accounting for the the 3rd of the VI7 chord (A7).

And in context, D major doesn’t make a ton of sense. If it’s a ii V to D then sure. But it’s not.

It goes to Dm (back to the C major scale), as I said, this is a simple analysis, I'm not outlining the chords.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah it’s all classic rhythm changes bebop vocab. If you know the idioms you know the idioms….

Generally bop players are interested in II Vs and boppy things to put on II Vs (or from the perspective of Barry, Vs). If you’ve done a few bop solos and heads you start to pick up the common elements. Rhythm Changes is a big one. Descending ‘bebop scales’ are another, especially with horn players.

It’s ok not to be a bop person. There is more to life. But if you know your bop, the Stitt example will make sense. It’s not so much a theoretical thing as commonplace idioms that everyone played on commonplace tunes like rhythm changes. Licks, vocab.

Schemata is you want to be fancy.

It’s a relatively small room. Not everything in a given chord scale makes a good bebop line for instance.

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[pamosmusic]

Generally bop players are interested in II Vs and boppy things to put on II Vs

That would be a simple analysis.

[Christian Miller]

That would be a simple analysis.

It’s not quite the truth but it’s like 80% of it.

It’s why we study II Vs or dominant scales rather than looking at the related key centre, right?

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[Mick-7]

Generally bop players are interested in II Vs and boppy things to put on II Vs

That would be a simple analysis.

Problem is, boppy things & simple analysis are not on speaking terms with one another.

But perhaps Christian's next video, "A Simple Analysis of Boppy Things!" will prove me wrong.

[Christian Miller]

Problem is, boppy things & simple analysis are not on speaking terms with one another.

Bop is very often quite simple harmonically.

Where it less obvious it’s usually the result of some substituted chord (such as tritone) or progression or some sort of anticipation or expansion of (usually) a particular chord.

Chord scale analyses often make it look more complicated than it is because there is a tendency to relate everything to the vanilla chord of the moment. This is a rookie mistake in my view.

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[Mick-7]

Bop is very often quite simple harmonically.

I've thrown down the gauntlet to you, sir - Christian's next video, "A Simple Analysis of Boppy Things!" will prove me wrong.

Or have you already made that video?

[pamosmusic]

I've thrown down the gauntlet to you, sir - Christian's next video, "A Simple Analysis of Boppy Things!" will prove me wrong.

Or have you already made that video?

Well you were talking about harmonic analysis. Melodically it can get a little hairy, but it’s still pretty predictable once you get cooking.

Harmonically it is simple.

My analysis of rhythm changes in C:

C turnaround - C turnaround
Cadence to IV - C turnaround

repeat the first section

Back cycle from III

repeat the first section

[Mick-7]

Well you were talking about harmonic analysis. Melodically it can get a little hairy, but it’s still pretty predictable once you get cooking.

Harmonically it is simple.

My analysis of rhythm changes in C:

C turnaround - C turnaround
Cadence to IV - C turnaround

repeat the first section

Back cycle from III

repeat the first section

Simple to you maybe, but someone who does not know theory will not agree. As you well know, there are many ways to harmonize a turnaround - or back cycle for that matter (but not as many).

[Christian Miller]

I've thrown down the gauntlet to you, sir - Christian's next video, "A Simple Analysis of Boppy Things!" will prove me wrong.

Or have you already made that video?

Naturally. I'm wondering whether to remake it, shorter..

The harmonic analysis is usually straightforward if you just look at the notes played by the soloist.

Most of the times it's chord tones with diatonic and chromatic neighbours, ornamental twiddles, blues language, line cliche stuff or some sort of diatonic scale, and the odd chromatic passing tone.

If you look out for the chord tones Bop players tend to outline harmony clearly most of the time.

The catch is is that harmony may not be the vanilla harmony of the song.

Often Bird makes subs of not one individual chord but of a progression. So he may play D-7 Db-7 C-7 F7 instead of Bb G7 C-7 F7 for example (like the example in the thumbnail), or even something like Bbmaj7 E7 F on G-7 C7 F. These are usually common standards chord progressions, so if you know some tunes you will have seen a lot of them.

The superimposition of one set of chords on the other doesn't necessarily have a chord scale relationship, but usually makes sense from the point of view of - this is a turnaround, this chord is going to IV, and so on.

But as Bird often spells out the changes very clearly in his line, if you just look at that on its own you can see what progression he's outlining and then work it out how it relates to the changes of the song.

[pamosmusic]

Simple to you maybe, but someone who does not know theory will not agree. As you well know, there are many ways to harmonize a turnaround - or back cycle for that matter (but not as many).

I mean …

“The way mechanics talk is so confusing.”

“Well, sir, do you happen to know anything about cars?”

I will also point out that you did use the phrase “D Dorian Melodic Minor” when describing a C major chord earlier.

[Mick-7]

I mean …

“The way mechanics talk is so confusing.”

“Well, sir, do you happen to know anything about cars?”

I will also point out that you did use the phrase “D Dorian Melodic Minor” when describing a C major chord earlier.

o.k. then, please cancel my appointment, I will not be bringing my car into your repair shop after all....

The D Dorian/Melodic Minor scale was my simple harmonic formula for the measure: / C - A7 /

I could have said, C major scale, add C#, same thing.

[Christian Miller]

Sometimes it is simple though. Here's an analysis of the first eight of confirmation with a red circle around everything that's a chord tone of the basic changes. Note that often it's 1 3 5 7, or even just 1 3 5.

The extensions of the G7 chord are used for effect. Also there's a b9 in the C7 chord, which is in the chord symbol TBF.

[princeplanet]

...
It’s ok not to be a bop person. There is more to life. ...

Nah...

[pamosmusic]

Nah...

get em

[Bobby Timmons]

Problem is, boppy things & simple analysis are not on speaking terms with one another.

[Mick-7]

I do hope that's not your poster boy for simple analysis of boppy things, BT?