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I first learned a bunch of scales mostly devoid of their relationship to any chord grips.
But lately I have wanted to move towards an approach where chord grips are the primary source material for improvisation.
By that I mean, one approach to solo is to just play some of the notes in a chord grip maybe with a few additional notes connecting them.
Maybe I am wrong, but it feels like what Charlie Christian does isn't too far from this. I think Pass and Herb Ellis' Shape System are not to far off from this.
The problem I am trying to solve is that I right now have scale shapes and chord shapes and they aren't connected that well and I want chord shapes to be the primary source material.
I wonder if others think this is a fruitful approach.
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11-26-2024 12:39 AM
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I think Barry Greene recommends relating your scales to your grips. He might state it a bit more elegantly.
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Absolutely; you need a vocabulary of chords, but all shapes need to be tested with progression changes (you know lots of tunes full of progression changes, right?).
While shape exploring, the best line test is probably a phrase of arpeggio up and scale down. However, you will want to learn how to manifest your lines so that they kinda somewhat disassociate themselves (disguise their methods) from their derivation.
Here are some ideas;
- conceive the line as spanning shape changes, not segments that express each chord
- imagine the line having a launch within one shape and a landing in another shape
- sub ambiguous shapes of sus, 11th, rootless, 7th on the bottom, other inversions
- lead/lag the resulting line by intruding a bit the launch and landing shape boundaries
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Chord Shapes as a basis for Improv
Beware of seemingly too-good-to-be-true solutions.
Unfortunately chord grips are an extremely accurate way of getting the notes under your fingers. Unfortunate because it might seem that that's all you need to make a solo.
In one way it does but it won't be a very good or far-ranging solo. You need scales as well because they provide the lines and fill-in notes.
So the idea is to combine them. But that combination need not necessarily mean that what you play is exactly the obvious scale or exactly the given chord either. They can be the same but it could sound very predictable.
That means the chord shape you use need not be the same as on the chart. In fact, a better solo is often produced when the real chords are subbed for others that produce a more interesting sound altogether. Such is the nature of jazz.
So it's not as simple as it looks and needs a lot of practice and experience to make it work. But, as a simple start, yes, chord shapes are good. They'll anchor you in the right note-zone far easier than a scale pattern will. Except maybe pentatonics, especially over a blues.
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Yes
Originally Posted by charlieparker
It's essential to join the two things up.
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Check out Jonathan Stout, an expert in Swing era jazz guitar (the best in the business). He often talks about how players like Charlie Christian and Allan Reuss used to think this way, building lines based on chord shapes.
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My brain doesn’t really work this way but I’ve met wonderful players who are explicit about organizing things this way.
I understand that Wes probably did this quite a bit?
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If you really know the scales and chords you can start to see the shapes when you transcribe things. A lot, I mean a friggin LOT of swing band sax riffs are some combination of R 3 5 6. I like to play this out of what I call The Broken F, fingered as xx3211. but the C shape also works well for this, for F that'd be x8756x.
Run the scales in thirds, triads, and finally 7th arpeggios to find all the shapes.
So anyway, yeah, I use chord shapes sometimes. Charlie Christian used them a lot and Herb Ellis wrote a book about soloing with chord shapes.
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Hi charlieparker. What you describe is exactly my way of improvising. To be more precise, I derive "micro-phrases" from the chords, often (but not always) of 8 notes, which I write on the staff and try to combine in the most creative way possible. Originally Posted by charlieparker
I got there after at least 30 years of scales of every kind and in every fretboard position.
All those scales didn't allow me to play the way I wanted and eventually, when I tried to play using the "shapes" of the chords, I started doing something I liked.
I believe that many people who are not satisfied with their way of improvising is because they continue to use scales - I think so -
Obviously I know quite a few chords and for me it is quite natural to play various Chord-melody of standard songs. But I think that knowing about fifty chord fingerings and the corresponding arpeggios is already a good starting point...useful for burying the scales!
My method "MELODIC IMPROVISATION FOR JAZZ GUITAR" is dedicated to this way of improvising over different chord progressions.
Here is an example on "All The Things You Are".
The solo is based 99% on "chord-shapes" (solo starts at 6'04")
Ciao!
ettore
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This is how I play.
Every scale is just a 13th chord
(yes, with the extensions in the lower octave too)
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Is that your normal right hand technique or were you trying to clearly show how the fingering? I ask because it was VERY easy to follow what you were playing. If you did work on that technique for teaching, I'd like to compliment you on it. Originally Posted by equenda
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Thank you for the reinforcement. I will look at your course after I'm off of work tonight. Originally Posted by equenda
Two things that I think are probably really important with the chord shape approach are,
- Know as many different chord shapes in different string sets
- Knowing some good chord substitutions for some variety.
I also think chord melody playing may be helpful to develop this concept as it forces you to learn voicings and tricks for including the melody in your chord.
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I think this can go the wrong way, though. For instance, you take a scale form you know and ask what are the chord tones. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
This is how I play.
Every scale is just a 13th chord
(yes, with the extensions in the lower octave too)
I'm trying to go the opposite direction, i.e., take a tune play the chord changes and based on the grips I am using to play the chords, use those notes for improv with maybe small fragments of additional notes around the chord, so not a low e yo high e scale box, but a grip with some extra notes nearby.
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No no no, learn how to use a few chord shapes very well, don't learn a lot of chord shapes badly. Watch Joe Pass' fingers as he plays a song, he rarely leaves the barre shapes. Originally Posted by charlieparker
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Huh? Originally Posted by charlieparker
If you know how chords are built this is a non issue.
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It's easy to fall into "rhythm = chords, soloing = single notes" when the guitar is really good at blurring the two. From Freddie Green one note chords to Wes chord pattern solos. At least this is something I've been thinking about lately.
The double-stop is a stone cold classic guitar move, and double-stops can be made of thirds, fourths, sixths. You can also make up double stops by just playing two notes from a bigger chord. Chords are a great way of organizing the fingerboard and getting melodic ideas that aren't just running a scale in 2nds.
Or to be a totally stoned hippy, "it's all connected, maaaan"
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I don't quite agree which is why I am flipping things so to speak. Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
I know how to build chords out of scale degrees but for me at least it isn't an instantaneous process and it's not how I find chord voicings. I don't start from a scale and extract a drop 2 voicing out of it.
Instead, I would like a chord grip to be the building block so if I have drop 2 C7 on the middle 4-strings, I would have those notes to solo with plus maybe a few additional notes. So a set of notes around a drop 2 C7 shape as opposed to a large scale shape with multiple different possible C7 voicings inside it.
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I think this conception is slightly different than the one I am pursuing. What you are suggesting sounds more like CAGED where you have a base chord form and a scale derived from it with different possible extensions available. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
What I am hoping to do is to take not base chord voicings, but instead actual grips that I would play like drop 2 voicings and sprinkle in some extra notes as a basis for improvisation or at leat practicing improvisation.
I don't think the two approaches are that far apart but, I really want to make the actual voicing the primary source.
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Thank You AllenAllen. Originally Posted by AllanAllen
The single notes Examples and Melodic Studies on my method are halfway between technical exercise and real Jazz improvisation.
Obviously in the video I recorded I tried to be as clear as possible.
But a good Jazz Musician would NEVER play this way.
However, I believe that the solo I wrote can be a good starting point for creating more creative and spontaneous improvisations.
Thanks again.
Ettore
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How would they play? Originally Posted by equenda
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With the rests! Originally Posted by ragman1
After many years I discovered that in a great Jazz solo the rests are more important than the notes.
Despite this, my favorite guitarist remains Pat Martino....
Ettore
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That's what I'm talking about, it's like CAGED, but I'm thinking of the chords in the scales. Here's a video of me playing the same lick thinking in 3 different shapes. Broken F, C and A. I don't really solo with the G shape and the D shape doesn't go up to the Maj7 so I left them out. Originally Posted by charlieparker
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I believe Mr.Beaumont's point was that if you know what scale tones make up a chord, you'll have no problem relating chords to scales, or vice versa - and this is required to read music notation well. Originally Posted by charlieparker
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That's what i'm thinking of when playing, chords. Then each chord becomes a family of chords, and i see the shapes and arpeggios of them around the main chord. Also chord progressions and movements start to become a thing, in solos and chord playing alike, meaning you start to see II-V-I or I-VI-II-V etc as one thing or one line/lick.
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You made it sound as though they wouldn't necessarily play the notes you were demonstrating either. Or use some other tricks (which they do). Originally Posted by equenda
I think you're over-generalising. Of course rests are important but very few professional/great players impress us with their rests.After many years I discovered that in a great Jazz solo the rests are more important than the notes.
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