How did the greats learn how to play?

[beetlejockey]

What did greats like Wes, Grant, Django, and Christian practice? Did they practice out of books, learn from records, or do any particular exercises? I've always been very curious about what all the best players of the instrument actually spent their time working on, since there is so much conflicting advice out there! Thanks so much

[Jimmy blue note]

They listened to the music of the day, they hung out with the people who played it and they played because they loved playing, couldn't help but love playing and they cared less about what whether they were doing it "right" than if they felt it in every note they played.

It takes a lot of practice to sound good to yourself. It takes even more practice to sound good to others. It takes a lot of time and practice to sound and feel good to people that ARE better than you, but if you have community, a good ear and support, nothing can stop you.
A lot of people stand in their own way by trying to measure up to their heroes while they neglect playing what they are hearing.

Do you listen to a lot of music? Have you learned to play with confidence and abandon? Do you love the music enough to play what you hear by ear?
It's not a bad place to start. It's how the greats started.

[AllanAllen]

The only thing I’ll add is They lived in a different world where you could have 2-3 gigs a day 7 days a week.

None of the people you listed sounded like the recordings we love when they first started.

[Petimar]

Wes transcribed and could play Charlie Christian solos. MANY great players learned how those before them played.

[pauln]

My favorite Wes quote, paraphrased, means this;

"I don't practice anything I wouldn't perform"

which is his way of recommending learning tunes.
The same philosophy is in the popular observation;

"Everything you actually need to learn to do
is in those tunes you want to be able to play"

I think it's understood that one does have to
learn the mechanics and grasp the elements
of music (notes, scales, chords), but a point
comes early where one just learns the tunes.

[Bobby Timmons]

Discussion with the bot about the question.

You said: There's a question on the jazz forum asking how Wes Montgomery, Grant Green, Django Reinhardt, and Charlie Christian learned how to play. Is there any factual evidence about that for any of them?

ChatGPT said:

Yes, there is factual evidence about how Wes Montgomery, Grant Green, Django Reinhardt, and Charlie Christian learned to play, though much of it comes from anecdotes and biographies rather than formal records. Here’s what is known about their learning paths:

Wes Montgomery

• Self-taught approach: Wes Montgomery largely taught himself how to play the guitar. He started at age 19, which is relatively late for a musician of his caliber.
• Listening to records: Montgomery famously learned by ear, particularly from Charlie Christian's recordings. He transcribed Christian’s solos, often staying up late at night after working long days.
• Octaves and thumb technique: He developed his iconic thumb-picking style and use of octaves through experimentation and necessity—using his thumb instead of a pick to avoid disturbing his neighbors during nighttime practice.
• Live performance experience: Much of his growth as a musician came from playing in local bands in Indianapolis before achieving national recognition.

Grant Green

• Family influence: Green’s father was a guitarist, which gave him early exposure to the instrument.
• Church music: He started playing in church settings in St. Louis, which influenced his soulful, bluesy approach to jazz.
• Mentors: Grant Green was mentored by more experienced musicians in St. Louis, including local jazz greats who helped him refine his bebop and hard bop styles.
• Early professional gigs: He started working professionally as a teenager, gaining experience playing rhythm & blues, gospel, and jazz.

Django Reinhardt

• Romani roots: Django was born into a Romani family, and music was an integral part of their culture. He began playing violin and later switched to banjo and guitar.
• Self-teaching and innovation: Django was largely self-taught. After a fire in his caravan severely injured his left hand, he developed a unique two-fingered technique on the fretboard, compensating for his disability with remarkable dexterity.
• Exposure to jazz: Django discovered jazz through records brought to Europe and was especially inspired by the music of Louis Armstrong.
• Collaborative learning: He honed his skills alongside violinist Stéphane Grappelli in the Quintette du Hot Club de France, blending his Romani background with swing jazz influences.

Charlie Christian

• Musical family: Christian’s father and brothers were musicians, and he grew up surrounded by music in Oklahoma City.
• Early exposure and education: His father taught him basic guitar and he later studied music formally in school. He also played with local jazz bands.
• Mentorship: Christian was mentored by guitarist Eddie Durham, who introduced him to the amplified guitar, which became central to his style.
• Influence of recordings: Like Montgomery, Christian learned from listening to and emulating other musicians, particularly those in the swing era.
• Breakthrough with Benny Goodman: His big break came when producer John Hammond brought him to audition for Benny Goodman, where his innovative approach to electric guitar revolutionized jazz.

Common Themes

All four musicians:

1. Were highly self-motivated learners, often teaching themselves by ear or from mentors.
2. Grew through live performance, playing extensively in local scenes before gaining fame.
3. Developed unique styles, often shaped by practical or personal circumstances (e.g., Django’s injury, Montgomery’s thumb technique).

Their paths highlight the importance of ear training, personal exploration, and extensive real-world playing in jazz mastery.

You said:

Their rigorous self directed learning and early work experience are obvious common themes from these early jazz greats. What is more shrouded is their music education, whether formal or informal. Can you expand on that if any is legitimately known?

ChatGPT said:

The music education of Wes Montgomery, Grant Green, Django Reinhardt, and Charlie Christian—whether formal or informal—is indeed less well-documented compared to their self-directed learning and work experience. However, we do know the following about their educational foundations:

---

Wes Montgomery

• Formal education: There’s no evidence that Wes Montgomery received formal music education. He began playing guitar at age 19, already past the typical age for early formal study. His learning was entirely informal, centered around ear training and practical application.
• Informal education:
  
  • Listening and transcribing: Montgomery’s primary method of learning was listening to Charlie Christian's solos and copying them note-for-note. This process was his way of developing a strong sense of phrasing and understanding jazz language.
  • Bandstand learning: His skills were honed through live playing and jamming with other musicians in Indianapolis, which served as an informal “school” of real-time jazz problem-solving and collaboration.

---

Grant Green

• Formal education: There is no record of Grant Green attending a formal music school or receiving classical training.
• Informal education:
  
  • Family influence: Green’s father, who was a guitarist, provided his earliest exposure to music and likely introduced him to basic techniques.
  • Church music: Playing in church offered him an early education in harmony, rhythm, and emotional expression, which became hallmarks of his soulful jazz style.
  • Community mentorship: St. Louis’s vibrant music scene provided Green with informal training from older, more experienced musicians, who helped him transition from gospel and blues to bebop and hard bop.

---

Django Reinhardt

• Formal education: Django Reinhardt did not receive formal music education. Growing up in a Romani community, he had little access to institutional learning.
• Informal education:
  
  • Romani musical tradition: Django’s earliest musical experiences came from the rich oral tradition of Romani music, which emphasized improvisation and emotional expression.
  • Trial-and-error innovation: After losing the use of two fingers on his left hand in a fire, Django had to relearn the guitar through sheer experimentation, creating a unique fingering system and voicing chords differently than most guitarists.
  • Listening to jazz: Django’s exposure to recorded jazz, especially Louis Armstrong’s music, was a pivotal part of his informal education. He absorbed swing rhythms and jazz phrasing through these recordings.

---

Charlie Christian

• Formal education:
  
  • Christian attended Douglass High School in Oklahoma City, where he likely received some formal music training. Schools at the time often provided basic instruction in theory, ensemble playing, and sight-reading.
  • Christian’s father, who was a blind musician, likely emphasized early discipline and foundational skills, though this would have been informal.
  
  
• Informal education:
  
  • Mentorship: Eddie Durham, a pioneering jazz guitarist, mentored Christian and introduced him to the amplified guitar. This relationship was crucial in shaping his approach to the instrument.
  • Playing in local bands: Christian gained practical, real-world training by performing with local swing bands, where he refined his skills and learned how to innovate within the idiom of big band jazz.

---

Shared Themes in Music Education

1. Oral and Aural Traditions: All four musicians learned significantly through listening—whether to records, live performances, or mentors. This reflects the jazz tradition of ear training as a primary educational method.
2. Community-Based Learning: Early exposure to local musicians and bands served as informal schooling for all of them. They gained practical knowledge in ensemble dynamics, improvisation, and stage presence.
3. Mentorship and Role Models: While none pursued higher education in music, each had access to experienced mentors (e.g., Eddie Durham for Christian, older St. Louis musicians for Green).
4. Self-Directed Mastery: Their educational paths underscore their personal drive. They each found innovative ways to overcome challenges (e.g., Django’s injury, Montgomery’s late start) and built foundational skills outside traditional systems.

In conclusion, while their formal education ranged from nonexistent to minimal, their informal education was rich and deeply tied to the communities, traditions, and mentors around them. This blend of learning by doing and listening is emblematic of the early jazz tradition.

[beetlejockey]

Do you listen to a lot of music? Have you learned to play with confidence and abandon? Do you love the music enough to play what you hear by ear?
It's not a bad place to start. It's how the greats started.

Thanks so much Jimmy! This is great advice, looks like learning some more solos I love and trusting my ear is a big part of it.

[Jimmy blue note]

Great contributions from a very knowledgable community!

I will very strongly point you to Lester Young especially when understanding Charlie Christian's guitar playing. I have always been and still remain in awe of Charlie's playing, his swing feel, his energy and the effortless flow of flow over and through the chords of the music he played. It seemed that he appeared out of nowhere (or is it just nostalgia?), and learning the feel of his lines was always magical yet elusive.
Then I got into Lester Young. Listen to Lester. That's all I'll say. Listen to Lester. He is the father of linear jazz guitar; he swings, he hears and he breathes.
There are a LOT of recordings out there. You don't need to write out or transcribe for a while, just immerse yourself and dig it.

[pamosmusic]

Discussion with the bot about the question.

You said: There's a question on the jazz forum asking how Wes Montgomery, Grant Green, Django Reinhardt, and Charlie Christian learned how to play. Is there any factual evidence about that for any of them?

ChatGPT said:

Yes, there is factual evidence about how Wes Montgomery, Grant Green, Django Reinhardt, and Charlie Christian learned to play, though much of it comes from anecdotes and biographies rather than formal records. Here’s what is known about their learning paths:

Wes Montgomery

• Self-taught approach: Wes Montgomery largely taught himself how to play the guitar. He started at age 19, which is relatively late for a musician of his caliber.
• Listening to records: Montgomery famously learned by ear, particularly from Charlie Christian's recordings. He transcribed Christian’s solos, often staying up late at night after working long days.
• Octaves and thumb technique: He developed his iconic thumb-picking style and use of octaves through experimentation and necessity—using his thumb instead of a pick to avoid disturbing his neighbors during nighttime practice.
• Live performance experience: Much of his growth as a musician came from playing in local bands in Indianapolis before achieving national recognition.

Grant Green

• Family influence: Green’s father was a guitarist, which gave him early exposure to the instrument.
• Church music: He started playing in church settings in St. Louis, which influenced his soulful, bluesy approach to jazz.
• Mentors: Grant Green was mentored by more experienced musicians in St. Louis, including local jazz greats who helped him refine his bebop and hard bop styles.
• Early professional gigs: He started working professionally as a teenager, gaining experience playing rhythm & blues, gospel, and jazz.

Django Reinhardt

• Romani roots: Django was born into a Romani family, and music was an integral part of their culture. He began playing violin and later switched to banjo and guitar.
• Self-teaching and innovation: Django was largely self-taught. After a fire in his caravan severely injured his left hand, he developed a unique two-fingered technique on the fretboard, compensating for his disability with remarkable dexterity.
• Exposure to jazz: Django discovered jazz through records brought to Europe and was especially inspired by the music of Louis Armstrong.
• Collaborative learning: He honed his skills alongside violinist Stéphane Grappelli in the Quintette du Hot Club de France, blending his Romani background with swing jazz influences.

Charlie Christian

• Musical family: Christian’s father and brothers were musicians, and he grew up surrounded by music in Oklahoma City.
• Early exposure and education: His father taught him basic guitar and he later studied music formally in school. He also played with local jazz bands.
• Mentorship: Christian was mentored by guitarist Eddie Durham, who introduced him to the amplified guitar, which became central to his style.
• Influence of recordings: Like Montgomery, Christian learned from listening to and emulating other musicians, particularly those in the swing era.
• Breakthrough with Benny Goodman: His big break came when producer John Hammond brought him to audition for Benny Goodman, where his innovative approach to electric guitar revolutionized jazz.

Common Themes

All four musicians:

1. Were highly self-motivated learners, often teaching themselves by ear or from mentors.
2. Grew through live performance, playing extensively in local scenes before gaining fame.
3. Developed unique styles, often shaped by practical or personal circumstances (e.g., Django’s injury, Montgomery’s thumb technique).

Their paths highlight the importance of ear training, personal exploration, and extensive real-world playing in jazz mastery.

You said:

Their rigorous self directed learning and early work experience are obvious common themes from these early jazz greats. What is more shrouded is their music education, whether formal or informal. Can you expand on that if any is legitimately known?

ChatGPT said:

The music education of Wes Montgomery, Grant Green, Django Reinhardt, and Charlie Christian—whether formal or informal—is indeed less well-documented compared to their self-directed learning and work experience. However, we do know the following about their educational foundations:

---

Wes Montgomery

• Formal education: There’s no evidence that Wes Montgomery received formal music education. He began playing guitar at age 19, already past the typical age for early formal study. His learning was entirely informal, centered around ear training and practical application.
• Informal education:
  
  • Listening and transcribing: Montgomery’s primary method of learning was listening to Charlie Christian's solos and copying them note-for-note. This process was his way of developing a strong sense of phrasing and understanding jazz language.
  • Bandstand learning: His skills were honed through live playing and jamming with other musicians in Indianapolis, which served as an informal “school” of real-time jazz problem-solving and collaboration.

---

Grant Green

• Formal education: There is no record of Grant Green attending a formal music school or receiving classical training.
• Informal education:
  
  • Family influence: Green’s father, who was a guitarist, provided his earliest exposure to music and likely introduced him to basic techniques.
  • Church music: Playing in church offered him an early education in harmony, rhythm, and emotional expression, which became hallmarks of his soulful jazz style.
  • Community mentorship: St. Louis’s vibrant music scene provided Green with informal training from older, more experienced musicians, who helped him transition from gospel and blues to bebop and hard bop.

---

Django Reinhardt

• Formal education: Django Reinhardt did not receive formal music education. Growing up in a Romani community, he had little access to institutional learning.
• Informal education:
  
  • Romani musical tradition: Django’s earliest musical experiences came from the rich oral tradition of Romani music, which emphasized improvisation and emotional expression.
  • Trial-and-error innovation: After losing the use of two fingers on his left hand in a fire, Django had to relearn the guitar through sheer experimentation, creating a unique fingering system and voicing chords differently than most guitarists.
  • Listening to jazz: Django’s exposure to recorded jazz, especially Louis Armstrong’s music, was a pivotal part of his informal education. He absorbed swing rhythms and jazz phrasing through these recordings.

---

Charlie Christian

• Formal education:
  
  • Christian attended Douglass High School in Oklahoma City, where he likely received some formal music training. Schools at the time often provided basic instruction in theory, ensemble playing, and sight-reading.
  • Christian’s father, who was a blind musician, likely emphasized early discipline and foundational skills, though this would have been informal.
  
  
• Informal education:
  
  • Mentorship: Eddie Durham, a pioneering jazz guitarist, mentored Christian and introduced him to the amplified guitar. This relationship was crucial in shaping his approach to the instrument.
  • Playing in local bands: Christian gained practical, real-world training by performing with local swing bands, where he refined his skills and learned how to innovate within the idiom of big band jazz.

---

Shared Themes in Music Education

1. Oral and Aural Traditions: All four musicians learned significantly through listening—whether to records, live performances, or mentors. This reflects the jazz tradition of ear training as a primary educational method.
2. Community-Based Learning: Early exposure to local musicians and bands served as informal schooling for all of them. They gained practical knowledge in ensemble dynamics, improvisation, and stage presence.
3. Mentorship and Role Models: While none pursued higher education in music, each had access to experienced mentors (e.g., Eddie Durham for Christian, older St. Louis musicians for Green).
4. Self-Directed Mastery: Their educational paths underscore their personal drive. They each found innovative ways to overcome challenges (e.g., Django’s injury, Montgomery’s late start) and built foundational skills outside traditional systems.

In conclusion, while their formal education ranged from nonexistent to minimal, their informal education was rich and deeply tied to the communities, traditions, and mentors around them. This blend of learning by doing and listening is emblematic of the early jazz tradition.

THE BOT!

I remember hearing most of these anecdotes at various times, but nice to see them laid out right next to each other.

[Bobby Timmons]

THE BOT!

The bot knows what's up!

I remember hearing most of these anecdotes at various times, but nice to see them laid out right next to each other.

Yeah it's good to see the info organized pretty accurately it seems.

[bediles]

Django was a Sinti fwiw

[AllanAllen]

Django was a Sinti fwiw

Don't let ChatGPT catch you correcting it.

[dasein]

The only thing I’ll add is They lived in a different world where you could have 2-3 gigs a day 7 days a week.

None of the people you listed sounded like the recordings we love when they first started.

I really do not think people today understand just how different the musical culture was back then.

If you could either read a chart or had a halfway decent ear, and were willing to spend your evenings playing in a dancehall instead of chasing girls in a dancehall, you could get a gig. You could get A LOT of gigs. There is no substitute for that.

Nowadays, you practically have to get a letter from the Pope to get a gig in NYC.

[pamosmusic]

I really do not think people today understand just how different the musical culture was back then.

If you could either read a chart or had a halfway decent ear, and were willing to spend your evenings playing in a dancehall instead of chasing girls in a dancehall, you could get a gig. You could get A LOT of gigs. There is no substitute for that.

Nowadays, you practically have to get a letter from the Pope to get a gig in NYC.

Spike “The Pope” Wilner

[AllanAllen]

I really do not think people today understand just how different the musical culture was back then.

If you could either read a chart or had a halfway decent ear, and were willing to spend your evenings playing in a dancehall instead of chasing girls in a dancehall, you could get a gig. You could get A LOT of gigs. There is no substitute for that.

Nowadays, you practically have to get a letter from the Pope to get a gig in NYC.

Also, you could make enough money from the gigs where you didn't need to daylight as a desk jockey. Music is strictly a preservationist hobby for 99% of us now.

[princeplanet]

The bot knows what's up!

Yeah it's good to see the info organized pretty accurately it seems.

,

The bot is just Google's greatest hits, which is why I also chat to it where I wanna save time, but like the rest of Google, it's hardly definitive or accurate in this instance, probably because the methods the greats used to "get good" are, unfortunately, largely unknown. And, without wishing to offend anyone here on the forum, no one here knows either, not even the better players amongst us. From reading the "Bible" on this very discussion (Thinking In Jazz), it's clear the knowledge came from the "street" rather than from any pedagogy, although many cite the Slonimsky books etc as ways to get melodic ideas etc.

But in those Golden Years, competition was fierce, which brought the country's best musical geniuses into these competitive hotbeds from all corners of the country, determined to get to the top of the heap, and to keep their spot, they weren't about to give away their secrets! I suspect that ideas were freely shared within certain bands where it was in every one's interests for, say, the guitarist to play better solos to keep up with pianos and horns. Let's take Wes, we know his brothers played other instruments (piano and vibes?), so there's no doubt Wes felt enormous pressure to pick up what they were doing and apply it to the guitar, but that doesn't mean that information got passed to anyone else! BTW, Wes did not start playing at 19! That was when he got his first 6 string, he was playing tenor guitar (4 strings) from the age of 12 (I think), which explains a lot.

So Wes, CC, Tal, GB, P. Martino, Pass etc all had their secrets, and even when they tried to explain it, it was veiled and probably in the secure knowledge that no-one was gonna take those "lessons" and surpass them any time soon. And let's not forget how Parker, Rollins, Dexter, Bud Powell, Bill Evans etc etc all managed to learn relatively quickly! Probably a combination of sheer genius, fierce dedication, and being surrounded by other players willing to share some secrets (Rollins probably learned more from Bud Powell than from anyone else directly).

But alas we'll never know how they did it. Even when we discover "the holy grail" workbooks, say like the famous post humus Clifford Brown etudes, we still have no idea of the thinking, conception or application behind them. It would take years of one to one tuition from those cats to get close to emulating their heroes (Jackie Maclean learned a lot in a few short years from Bird, Bud and Sonny cos they were neighbours and they liked him). Yeah, I know, there are still a handful of players that seem to get good quickly, but let's face it, most of us toil in the dark for years...

[AllanAllen]

I don't think it's that complicated, they had gigs and they wanted to try new things.

There's a lot of work that goes into "try new things" but that spark is the key, not the work. Focus on technique and don't shun theory or licks, you'll go far. Put a bunch of self imposing limits and rules on yourself and you'll smother the spark.

These concepts are frustratingly easy to summarize. Much harder to do the work.

[Bach5G]

Wes transcribed and could play Charlie Christian solos. MANY great players learned how those before them played.

And Metheny knew Smokin’ at the Half Note inside out when he was still in high school.

[princeplanet]

And Metheny knew Smokin’ at the Half Note inside out when he was still in high school.

And yet you don't really hear it, not even in his early recordings.

[James W]

,
But in those Golden Years, competition was fierce, which brought the country's best musical geniuses into these competitive hotbeds from all corners of the country, determined to get to the top of the heap, and to keep their spot, they weren't about to give away their secrets!

Yeah, as though what you need to become a great musician can be withheld as a secret. The proof is in the pudding - you just have to listen, be able to listen. There were or aren't any secrets - if not everything, then a lot is revealed by listening.

Also, music is not a competition (it's much more interesting than that).

[princeplanet]

Yeah, as though what you need to become a great musician can be withheld as a secret. The proof is in the pudding - you just have to listen, be able to listen. There were or aren't any secrets - if not everything, then a lot is revealed by listening.

Also, music is not a competition (it's much more interesting than that).

If that were true then you'd be able to improvise in the style of anyone you chose to, just be listening! (you might be that one in a million?).

There were (and are) secret methodologies that many players jealously guarded. What Bird played is all on record, yet only a handful out of thousands that tried to decode his style got remotely close, and probably through first or secondhand divulging of said "secrets". And where there is money to be made, there will be competition.

While I'm into Art for Art's sake more than anyone else I've ever known (sad but true), I've had to accept that it's ok for others to be competitive in their art making, and sometimes it's the competition that inspires aspirations to greater heights (this seems so obvious that I'm embarrassed to even mention it).

I've also had to accept that others won't agree with what I've just said, and I'm also perfectly fine with that too.

[AllanAllen]

As soon as it leaves the privacy of your home you stop making art for arts sake and you start making a product. Charlie Parker was making commercial records, Handel was taking commissions from King George, it's always been that way.

Comfortable people, men of leisure if you will, have this romantic idea of a noble tortured artist willing to sacrifice it all for great art, but the actual working artist just wants to pay their bills and get some more supplies.

[James W]

If that were true then you'd be able to improvise in the style of anyone you chose to, just be listening! (you might be that one in a million?).

There were (and are) secret methodologies that many players jealously guarded.

If you're privy to these secret methodologies, not so secret then are they?

What Bird played is all on record, yet only a handful out of thousands that tried to decode his style got remotely close, and probably through first or secondhand divulging of said "secrets". And where there is money to be made, there will be competition.

Yes, 'get rich through playing bebop' ... said no one ever. There may have been money to have been made, but there was also music to be made. Often fast, undanceable, complex and subtle music.

[Alter]

One thing most of them had in common was the baptist church, being surrounded by the music since they were born, and in most occasions also studying instruments from a very early age at school (and many times different instruments). So they already knew the language, and only had to master the mechanics of an instrument. And then of course in the case of the masters, take the language further..

Then there was the live scene. Who gets to gig the same band 5-7 nights a week for months at a time today, playing jazz? No one basically. At the time, it was normal for them to do studio gigs all day, then play all night, three sets every night. Kenny Burrell used to cut three records a day before his gig..

[ragman1]

How would any of us learn to play if there was no Berklee, no teacher up the road, no phones, no internet, no improv books, etc?

And I'm not sure we wouldn't play a lot better too because that way requires serious dedication. And I'm quite sure there would be a lot fewer of us.