Dave Creamer Exercises

[Mick-7]

I didn't save have a lot of these exercises by Dave Creamer but here are a few of them....

Playing inside/outside the chord changes:





And an easy solo that Dave wrote out, I don't recall what concept it illustrates.

[Mick-7]

I was asked in another thread about Dave's advice on developing one's phrasing, specifically the use of dynamics, i.e., taking a phrase from a whisper to a shout. He suggested practicing that with long lines like those in the exercise below.

This exercise is a study in taking a long phrase and transposing it diatonically, down a chord tone in this example. It can develop the facility to remember and improvise long lines.

[princeplanet]

I didn't save have a lot of these exercises by Dave Creamer but here are a few of them....

Playing inside/outside the chord changes:





And an easy solo that Dave wrote out, I don't recall what concept it illustrates.

Do you have recordings of these? (I'm too lazy to work them out to speed, and my reading skills are way too slow to appreciate how these lines might sound at tempo).

[Mick-7]

Do you have recordings of these? (I'm too lazy to work them out to speed, and my reading skills are way too slow to appreciate how these lines might sound at tempo).

No, I suppose I could make one....

By the way, I think the Moment's Notice solo is meant to illustrate the inclusion of wide intervals in phrasing. That's how Dave played back then (close to 50 years ago) - angular Eric Dolphy like lines.

Funny how I learned about Dave. I was wandering through Golden Gate park in San Francisco one lovely summer day and there was a band playing a free concert there - "Wow, that sounds interesting, who the heck is that?"

The band was: Listen, with Mel Martin on sax and flute, Andy Narell on steel drums and piano, Richard Waters on various odd percussion instruments he'd invented like the "water phone" ( See: Richard A. Waters ), Dave Dunaway on bass, George Marsh on drums, and Dave Creamer on guitar. And they sounded as unique as the unusual instrument line-up would suggest. I asked Dave after the concert if he gave lessons, he said Yes, gave me his phone number, and the rest is history.

This is their first album, which is excellent -- Listen featuring Mel Martin

As I recall, Dave only soloed on this one tune on the album, Jesse's Theme. (I think he may have composed part of it, i.e., the long 12 tone phrase he plays with the pianist, which starts at about 3:50 min. into the track, after his solo.) He's also on Miles Davis' 1972 album, On the Corner.

[princeplanet]

No, I suppose I could make one....

By the way, I think the Moment's Notice solo is meant to illustrate the inclusion of wide intervals in phrasing. That's how Dave played back then (close to 50 years ago) - angular Eric Dolphy like lines.

Funny how I learned about Dave. I was wandering through Golden Gate park in San Francisco one lovely summer day and there was a band playing a free concert there - "Wow, that sounds interesting, who the heck is that?"

The band was: Listen, with Mel Martin on sax and flute, Andy Narell on steel drums and piano, Richard Waters on various odd percussion instruments he'd invented like the "water phone" ( See: Richard A. Waters ), Dave Dunaway on bass, George Marsh on drums, and Dave Creamer on guitar. And they sounded as unique as the unusual instrument line-up would suggest. I asked Dave after the concert if he gave lessons, he said Yes, gave me his phone number, and the rest is history.

This is their first album, which is excellent -- Listen featuring Mel Martin

As I recall, Dave only soloed on this one tune on the album, Jesse's Theme. (I think he may have composed part of it, i.e., the long 12 tone phrase he plays with the pianist, which starts at about 3:50 min. into the track, after his solo.) He's also on Miles Davis' 1972 album, On the Corner.

I dig it. BTW, that's not a single 12 tone row being used, do you know if he was pulling from a 12 tone magic square?

[buduranus2]

I took a lesson from Dave Creamer about 50 years ago and it took me nearly that long to understand what he was talking about. No fault of his BTW.

[Mick-7]

I dig it. BTW, that's not a single 12 tone row being used, do you know if he was pulling from a 12 tone magic square?

I don't know what his 12 tone series methodology was, it seemed like he could construct them on the fly. He published a book on it though.
See: Music and Theory Books by Dave Creamer. I have some of his 12 tone exercises, could post them if anyone's interested.

I took a lesson from Dave Creamer about 50 years ago and it took me nearly that long to understand what he was talking about. No fault of his BTW.

Me too, it was definitely like being thrown into the deep end of the pool, either learn to swim or drown. I decided to try the former but I only studied with him for a couple of months, I hadn't been playing jazz for very long and he was way too advanced for me at the time. And he was such a virtuoso, you get a tiny hint of that from the Listen track, he could play incredibly complex lines cleanly at very fast tempos. The Matteo Mancuso lines that people gawk at are like nursery rhymes compared to some of those he played.

[Christian Miller]

Obviously a Webern guy. I like the unison lines.


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[Mick-7]

I posted this Guitar Player article by Dave on using 12 tone patterns for improvisation in another thread, here it is again.

Advanced Improvisation - Dave Creamer.pdf

[Christian Miller]

I have book on twelve tone improv that is as yet more or less unopened

One day I will get around to making music that’s even less popular than the stuff I make at the moment :-)


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[Mick-7]

One day I will get around to making music that’s even less popular than the stuff I make at the moment :-)

You too can have a YouTube channel with less than 2 dozen subscribers, go for it!

[Christian Miller]

You too can have a YouTube channel with less than 2 dozen subscribers, go for it!

It’s a challenge, but one I’m willing to accept.


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[Rob MacKillop]

Serial music by Welsh composer, Denis ApIvor. His estate gave all his scores to the University of Leeds, and they gave me permission to give away to whoever asks for a pdf of his book, An Introduction to Serial Music for Guitarists, which is definitely the best book I’ve seen on the subject. Yes, it’s for classical technique, but his aim is to get you composing your own pieces with your technique. Let me know if you want a copy - I’ll need to send it via WeTransfer to your email address - but I won’t be able to do that until I get home from hospital. A date has been set: 12 November!

[Mick-7]

Dave's Giant Steps Study and pdfs of it are attached. I used the fingerings I thought most appropriate, and included two different fingerings for the repeat of the A section. I'll notate the other studies I posted too.

[unknownguitarplayer]

Wow! Thanks for posting.

[dasein]

Appreciate you putting these up, Mick. I've always been fascinated by Dave Creamer and his playing/teaching, but he's been a hard man to get a hold of for a very long time.

He has a couple books that have long been OOP available on his website for about $10 apiece, I picked them both up. I may take the plunge and do a Skype lesson at some point.

Incidentally, this excerpt from his book "Chromatic Enhancements of the Major Scale" caught my eye. Should be very familiar to a lot of forum members.

[unknownguitarplayer]

You too can have a YouTube channel with less than 2 dozen subscribers, go for it!

With all due respect, you both have a long way to go. When I try to record, the notes won’t even stick to the tape. Nevertheless, I perverse!

[Mick-7]

Attached is a pdf of the notation for Dave's Moment's Notice Study with suggested fingerings. I also uploaded a new version of the Giant Steps Study notation with suggested fingerings, in my last post (#14).

[Mick-7]

Attached is a pdf of the notation for Dave Creamer's Tonal-Atonal Oscillation Study with suggested fingerings.

Dave had a consistent method of fingering large interval and heavily chromatic lines but I am not sure I am accurately following it because I didn't write down his suggested fingerings. I only know that he used all four fingers of his left hand to fret notes and a finger span of up to 6 frets per position. They are like Allan Holdworth's lines in that way, you really cannot play them with conventional position fingering systems like CAGED.

[wolflen]

Attached is a pdf of the notation for Dave Creamer's Tonal-Atonal Oscillation Study with suggested fingerings.

Dave had a consistent method of fingering large interval and heavily chromatic lines but I am not sure I am accurately following it because I didn't write down his suggested fingerings. I only know that he used all four fingers of his left hand to fret notes and a finger span of up to 6 frets per position. They are like Allan Holdworth's lines in that way, you really cannot play them with conventional position fingering systems like CAGED.

Thanks Mick..

To me its an extension of Joe Diorios Intervallic Designs work..I take this one measure at a time and see if I can use it with something I already know..rather than just play it once and forget it

[Mick-7]

Thanks Mick..

To me its an extension of Joe Diorios Intervallic Designs work..I take this one measure at a time and see if I can use it with something I already know..rather than just play it once and forget it

Your mention of Joe Diorio got me thinking about using symmetrical fingerings for intervallic patterns and it dawned on me that this is what Dave is doing; using set fingerings for the interval and atonal patterns. And I think he also slides with his 4th finger a la Allan Holdsworth (at least for the double 5ths), something I've been avoiding.

I have uploaded another version of the Tonal-Atonal study with the symmetrical fingerings.

[Mick-7]

This next topic on the agenda is horizontal (up/down the fingerboard) vs. vertical (across the fingerboard) fingering of scales and phrases. The pdf I uploaded has several examples, the pic below shows a few of them. If anyone has a question about this or wants to see more examples, let me know, I have many more.

By the way, these were not written in specific rhythms as in my examples. I don't know how to remove the time signature notation in Guitar Pro (assuming it can be removed), I may have to read the manual.

[wolflen]

Your mention of Joe Diorio got me thinking about using symmetrical fingerings for intervallic patterns and it dawned on me that this is what Dave is doing; using set fingerings for the interval and atonal patterns. And I think he also slides with his 4th finger a la Allan Holdsworth (at least for the double 5ths), something I've been avoiding.

I have uploaded another version of the Tonal-Atonal study with the symmetrical fingerings.

Mick..this is a fusion players dream..just bars 3 and 4 gives enough material for hours of experimentation in the genre.

And yes there is a Holdsworth flavor that can and should be developed in these studies.

The added use of synthetic scales and of course modes from them produces the open feel.."no key-no bars"..These exercises encourage that ALOT !

[Mick-7]

Mick..this is a fusion players dream..just bars 3 and 4 gives enough material for hours of experimentation in the genre.

And yes there is a Holdsworth flavor that can and should be developed in these studies.

The added use of synthetic scales and of course modes from them produces the open feel.."no key-no bars"..These exercises encourage that ALOT !

Did Joe Diorio recommend specific fingerings for his phrases?

[wolflen]

Did Joe Diorio recommend specific fingerings for his phrases?

In the edition I have he does..now I will have to revisit some of it and try and mesh with Creamer stuff