Anyone use these subs?

[princeplanet]

So, I was looking through my notebook the other day and found a couple of ideas I got from somewhere (maybe this forum?) that I jotted down and never got around to shedding.

First, from Peter Farrell:

further development of dominants (for possible use over D dorian)

1.G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj

I get the TT 2-5 subs for each of the Dom chords, but what is the logic behind these maj triads? (eg- Gbmaj and Bmaj ?)


And secondly - this is more of an "outside move" than a sub:

Playing “in and out” over any maj or min chord:
Over C/Am pent, slip in and out of Ab maj / Fmin pent.

- basically think the same pent a maj 3rd lower (preferably in the same guitar position )

F, Ab, Bb, C , Eb
11, b13, b7, R, #9 - against C major
b13, #7, b9, b3, b5 - against A minor

No real logical explanation required for this one, just a less common outside move.

Anyone really use these ideas? In what contexts? Would you use them in a Bop context, or something more modern?

[pamosmusic]

The m7, dominant, and b7 major over the dominants for sure. The tonic majors not as much. Basically the "important chords" or "family of four" chords or whatever but off the diminished subs to the dominant.

The Zuck has been posting about this periodically (usually received by ... let's say ... 'skepticism.')

jack zucker - Dodecaphonics

Very late-fifties Trane vibe.

[princeplanet]

The m7, dominant, and b7 major over the dominants for sure. The tonic majors not as much. Basically the "important chords" or "family of four" chords or whatever but off the diminished subs to the dominant.

The Zuck has been posting about this periodically (usually received by ... let's say ... 'skepticism.')

jack zucker - Dodecaphonics

Very late-fifties Trane vibe.

Yeah, I'm a family (of four) man myself, but maybe its time to stretch things a little, although I'm not sure I'll ever be ready to dive into Dodecaphonics !

I tend to prefer simple stuff like:

MINOR 3RD SUB MATRIX: ii - V

ii - V ii - V

Dm7.............G7
Dm7(b5).......G7(b9)
Fm7.............Bb7
Fm7(b5).......Bb7(b9)
Abm7...........Db7
Abm7(b5).....Db7(b9)
Bm7.............E7
Bm7(b5).......E7(b9)

*anychord from 1st column can go to any chord in 2nd column.

[AllanAllen]

So I can play Db7 over Dm7b5?

I’d like to find a method to cut those out of my playing entirely.

[princeplanet]

So I can play Db7 over Dm7b5?

I’d like to find a method to cut those out of my playing entirely.

Haha, well if you're talking about the Peter Farrell "GB" subs, it is weird (although its Dbmaj - no 7).

But if we hear GB using it, I'm sure he pulls it off! As in - "anything over anything".

[pamosmusic]

The more standard would be Fm7 or Bb7 over Dm7b5

[grahambop]

Benson does a thing in the ‘hot licks’ video he did years ago where he subs Dbmaj7 over G7 (so a tritone essentially) but then he extends this by saying he can use any related chord as well, by this he seems to mean going up in 4ths. So he will also use Gbmaj, Bmaj, Emaj, etc. (he plays them as fast maj7 arpeggio-type lines).

Sounds a bit similar to the stuff in the first post.

I’ve tried this with all 12 possible substitute chords, although some don’t sound great, it’s surprising how many sound quite cool. Of course you need to resolve the line into C properly.

[bako]

1.G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj

Please clarify context.
Are these all targeting resolution to C or Cm or is each line targeting the tonic individually on each line based on the dominants, G7,E7,C7,A7?

if targeting C or Cm:
The sequence is just All the Things You Are a very familiar logical 4th movement, so the question might be without lining them up with the chords they are subbing for, is this pathway to resolution musically satisfying? Like almost any sequence it can be voice led. Secondary question, how does it coexist with other musicians playing original changes.

[bediles]

Your list of dominants to D dorian is building a chord on each chord tone of Dmin7 and tonicizing that. Works great with modes with no avoid ("handle with care") notes.

As for the sub for each dom.
1.G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj

Tritone subs but not worrying about Mel min (aka playing major 7 on dominant) = Abm7, Db7, Bmaj7 (B maj are extentions of Abmim)

V of V = D7 = Gbmaj7.

Look at bar 3/4 of GBs Billie's Bounce solo, maj7 off the 3rd of a dominant or maybe 3-9 of a min7 chord. However you want to think about it.

Thinking about either of these subs will make you play different language even if the scales themselves have the same notes. And the tonic maj will usually need to be resolved to the V before going back to the I but voiceleading and melody may say who cares.

[bediles]

Benson seems to intuitively play both subdominant (both major and minor) and dominant language over dominant. Also subdominant minor of rel major too for alt dominant resolving to minor.

Functions are key to him as opposed to thinking morally.... er modally.

[wolflen]

symmetric harmony used in cadence sequences works well..

the diminished, melodic minor (and its modes) whole tone and other scales allow harmonic freedom at this point in many progressions.

I see the mi7b5s and its inversions as harmonic movement in minor thirds

same for the mi7b5 = Dom9 (no rt) = Dom 7#5b9 (no rt) ..Using the MM-Alt scale and chords

applying this thinking to some of the chord examples posted may give you some different ways to use chords

[Mick-7]

So I can play Db7 over Dm7b5?

I’d like to find a method to cut those out of my playing entirely.

Go ahead but you may also be eliminating your m6 & Dom.9th chord voicings because Dm7b5 = Fm6, Bb9 & E7#5b9 (w/o roots).

Db7 is a flat five substitute for G7, the relative V7 chord of Dm7, so it's not a great choice for the IIm7, AbMaj7 or Ab7 would be better.

[ragman1]

So, I was looking through my notebook the other day and found a couple of ideas I got from somewhere (maybe this forum?) that I jotted down and never got around to shedding.

First, from Peter Farrell:

further development of dominants (for possible use over D dorian)

1.G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj

I get the TT 2-5 subs for each of the Dom chords, but what is the logic behind these maj triads? (eg- Gbmaj and Bmaj ?)


And secondly - this is more of an "outside move" than a sub:

Playing “in and out” over any maj or min chord:
Over C/Am pent, slip in and out of Ab maj / Fmin pent.

- basically think the same pent a maj 3rd lower (preferably in the same guitar position )

F, Ab, Bb, C , Eb
11, b13, b7, R, #9 - against C major
b13, #7, b9, b3, b5 - against A minor

No real logical explanation required for this one, just a less common outside move.

Anyone really use these ideas? In what contexts? Would you use them in a Bop context, or something more modern?

Instead of making long, complicated lists why don't you sit down and PLAY all these things to see how they work? See if you can use them and so on? If you like them, use them. If you don't, don't.

You make problems where there aren't any. It's all verbal and intellectual, not actual, not musical.

[princeplanet]

Instead of making long, complicated lists why don't you sit down and PLAY all these things to see how they work? See if you can use them and so on? If you like them, use them. If you don't, don't.

You make problems where there aren't any. It's all verbal and intellectual, not actual, not musical.

Sure, I did, and am still undecided, hence why I'm asking for other opinions, which after all, is what I find this forum useful for. With your attitude, it seems like you don't need the opinions of others, which is fine, great even.

If that's the case, what do you use this forum for then?

[ragman1]

Attacking me won't solve your problem.

Why are you undecided? Undecided about what? If you think you can use them, use them. If you think the sound makes your playing more interesting, use them.

It's up to you. Other peoples' opinions are irrelevant. They could entirely mislead you. Their taste may not be your taste, etc.

[princeplanet]

Relax chief, no-one's attacking anyone here, but seriously, have you never had any uncertainty along your journey up the Jazz mountain? For me to decide if an idea is worth pursuing or not has never been "let's try it for 5 minutes and see if I like it"! We can't all be as decisive as you, I need to drive something around the block a coupla hundred times before deciding if it's my vibe.

Sometimes things I was expecting to like, didn't make it into my bag, and on more than a few occasions something I wasn't sure about that I stuck with anyway came up trumps. But alas, life is short, and there's still a long list of ideas yet to try, so any advice from my comrades sometimes helps me decide what may be worth trialling seriously before committing. Ya dig?

[princeplanet]

Benson seems to intuitively play both subdominant (both major and minor) and dominant language over dominant. Also subdominant minor of rel major too for alt dominant resolving to minor.

Functions are key to him as opposed to thinking morally.... er modally.

hehe, GB = Immoral Harmony

[princeplanet]

1.G7 - Abm7, Db7, Gbmaj, Bmaj
2. E7 - Fm7, Bb7, Ebmaj, Abmaj
3. C7 - Dbm7, Gb7, Bmaj, Emaj
4. A7 - Bbm7, Eb7, Abmaj, Dbmaj

Please clarify context.
Are these all targeting resolution to C or Cm or is each line targeting the tonic individually on each line based on the dominants, G7,E7,C7,A7?

if targeting C or Cm:
The sequence is just All the Things You Are a very familiar logical 4th movement, so the question might be without lining them up with the chords they are subbing for, is this pathway to resolution musically satisfying? Like almost any sequence it can be voice led. Secondary question, how does it coexist with other musicians playing original changes.

As stated in the OP, the context is D dorian (vamp), but I don't think the chords in each line are meant to be played sequentially. They're all harmonic ideas derived from the main 4 Dom7 groups, where each of them might be used separately or in combination with other areas either from the same line, or perhaps others. It would take me months to try every combination properly, and as Rag suggests, ultimately I just may have to do the grind myself to see if I like it or not.
But I'd still be interested to know if people are using these concepts and their thoughts on their utility.

[princeplanet]

Benson does a thing in the ‘hot licks’ video he did years ago where he subs Dbmaj7 over G7 (so a tritone essentially) but then he extends this by saying he can use any related chord as well, by this he seems to mean going up in 4ths. So he will also use Gbmaj, Bmaj, Emaj, etc. (he plays them as fast maj7 arpeggio-type lines).

Sounds a bit similar to the stuff in the first post.

I’ve tried this with all 12 possible substitute chords, although some don’t sound great, it’s surprising how many sound quite cool. Of course you need to resolve the line into C properly.

Again, the context is a D Dorian vamp, but you have me wondering that, if these harmonic options can work in a Dorian context, shouldn't they also work resolving to Ionian? As in, all these options are subs for a Dominant class, whether static (Dorian vamp) or resolving to Tonic. I think the point about the handling is key, GB probably uses these ideas as short bursts of quick notes resolving in a cool way. Playing a #7 against a b7 in a Dom (or Dorian) context can sound like ass, but GB (along with many others I'm sure) has shown it can sound cool if handled a certain way. Maybe?

[grahambop]

Yes the way Benson plays them makes a difference, it’s quite fast so any passing clashes of odd notes don’t notice much. Also by using clear structures like major arps etc. it kind of imposes itself melodically on the underlying progression.

There’s a transcribed example somewhere in the book that accompanies the video, I’ll see if I can find it.

[ragman1]

Relax chief, no-one's attacking anyone here, but seriously, have you never had any uncertainty along your journey up the Jazz mountain? For me to decide if an idea is worth pursuing or not has never been "let's try it for 5 minutes and see if I like it"! We can't all be as decisive as you, I need to drive something around the block a coupla hundred times before deciding if it's my vibe.

Sometimes things I was expecting to like, didn't make it into my bag, and on more than a few occasions something I wasn't sure about that I stuck with anyway came up trumps. But alas, life is short, and there's still a long list of ideas yet to try, so any advice from my comrades sometimes helps me decide what may be worth trialling seriously before committing. Ya dig?

All right, let's say I'm a bit more hands-on and prefer to try things. It doesn't mean trying things out is a bad idea. I also think it's quicker in the end. It doesn't mean I won't listen to anyone either. I've listened to everything!

I'm just playing around with So What at the moment. Dorian is the basic harmony but it gets repetitive pretty quickly. So I'm experimenting with using all the various minor sounds - natural, harmonic and melodic minor. Also the related major scales for Dm - C, F and Bb. But there are also some scales that contain most of the relevant notes - A, Bb, C and F melodic minor, for instance. They're quite good. Plus outlining related chords, etc, etc.

I've been at it for about five or six hours now - and discovered lots of things because I'm recording it. Some things I thought sounded clever weren't and some things just sort of happened by themselves, the benefits of prolonged application.

So, by the sound of it, we're both doing more or less the same thing. Probably the difference is I'm not asking other people what their opinion is because I know they might prefer something I don't like and vice versa.

Tastes vary but if someone prefers something I don't then I guess too bad. I mean, what can you do?

[pamosmusic]

All right, let's say I'm a bit more hands-on and prefer to try things. It doesn't mean trying things out is a bad idea. I also think it's quicker in the end. It doesn't mean I won't listen to anyone either. I've listened to everything!

Yes because everyone here has said that trying things is bad.

[pamosmusic]

Again, the context is a D Dorian vamp, but you have me wondering that, if these harmonic options can work in a Dorian context, shouldn't they also work resolving to Ionian? As in, all these options are subs for a Dominant class, whether static (Dorian vamp) or resolving to Tonic. I think the point about the handling is key, GB probably uses these ideas as short bursts of quick notes resolving in a cool way. Playing a #7 against a b7 in a Dom (or Dorian) context can sound like ass, but GB (along with many others I'm sure) has shown it can sound cool if handled a certain way. Maybe?

Oh I missed the part where this is a Dorian vamp, but this isn’t a super unusual strategy for dominants.

G7 — family of four or whatever you call them — G7 Bm7b5 Dm7 Fmaj7

then the diminished subs

Bb7 — and their related chords — Bb7 Dm7b5 Fm7 and Abmaj7

Db7 — Db7 Fm7b5 Abm7 Bmaj7

E7 — E7 G#m7b5 Bm7 Dmaj7

[princeplanet]

...

So, by the sound of it, we're both doing more or less the same thing. Probably the difference is I'm not asking other people what their opinion is because I know they might prefer something I don't like and vice versa.
..

Well, ultimately we all gotta decide what we like for ourselves, but I'll admit sometimes it has taken me a looooong time to decide I actually don't like something. Whether it's a BH thing, or MM modes thing, or melodic triads etc etc. I don't wanna die wondering....

[princeplanet]

Oh I missed the part where this is a Dorian vamp, but this isn’t a super unusual strategy for dominants.

G7 — family of four or whatever you call them — G7 Bm7b5 Dm7 Fmaj7

then the diminished subs

Bb7 — and their related chords — Bb7 Dm7b5 Fm7 and Abmaj7

Db7 — Db7 Fm7b5 Abm7 Bmaj7

E7 — E7 G#m7b5 Bm7 Dmaj7

Yes, like from my 2nd post above:

MINOR 3RD SUB MATRIX: ii - V

*any

chord from 1st column can go to any chord in 2nd column.

Dm7.............G7
Dm7(b5).......G7(b9)
Fm7.............Bb7
Fm7(b5).......Bb7(b9)
Abm7...........Db7
Abm7(b5).....Db7(b9)
Bm7.............E7
Bm7(b5).......E7(b9)