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To be a good sight reader is also a type of improvisation - if you’ve read a load of Sor or Giuliani or whatever you are more likely to know ‘how it goes’.
There’s stories of players intuitively correcting printing mistakes as they play, because they just don’t see the individual notes, but rather the shapes in the style.
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09-19-2024 09:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Thought experiment: You play C maj and I play the note D … is it colorful or do you barely notice it?Last edited by pamosmusic; 09-19-2024 at 09:46 AM.
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Colorful, because it's pleasantly lydian, which is more than acceptable. Wrong notes aren't notes just 'not in the chord', they're basically mistakes that sound clashingly awful because they obviously are to any reasonable ear.
Does this really need explaining?
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Originally Posted by ragman1
First off, nothing distinctly “Lydian” about that note. But also you didn’t ask an important question … what comes before and after, and how long did you hear it? Where does it occur, and for how long.
or: RHYTHM
Whenever I tell you that some weird sound can sound good if it’s part of convincing vocabulary, you tend to challenge me to play it and sometimes I do and you usually say something along the lines of “well I don’t know why you’re hiding it with all that flailing around.” By which you mean that you can’t hear the clashes because of the rhythm.
But I could play D over C in a way that sounds tense and colorful, in a way that sounds propulsive and resolved, and in a way that you wouldn’t even notice it (as a passing note, say).
It isn’t the note that makes it colorful … it’s placement, duration, articulation. Rhythm, baby.
When people say that anything can sound good over anything, it’s important to note what they *dont* say … they don’t say that anything WILL sound good over anything. They don’t say that anything can sound good over anything HOWEVER and WHENEVER you play it. It’s just that the relationship of the pitch to the root note really matter that much.
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It occurs to me that you might have read that as a “D chord,” but the same still applies.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
(Just seen your next post. Yes, as a chord).
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Whenever I tell you that some weird sound can sound good if it’s part of convincing vocabulary, you tend to challenge me to play it
It depends entirely on the context. I'd say that's the bottom line. Done skilfully it can sound terrific. But I wouldn't call that a wrong note, or notes. That's the point.
As I said earlier, it's not something reduced to 'a wrong note is a note not in the chord'. That's far too banal and not true anyway.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by ragman1
He ought to de-bunk the 'There are no wrong notes' theory as well because that is serious nonsense!
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There's also a natural slide in the use of notes.
For example, using the major seventh as part of a melody was common in the 1920s, but you wouldn't hear it in a comping chord until much later.
OTOH when Bird sits on the major 9th on a I chord, I kind of feel he's being a little cheeky - refusing to resolve (I have no way of knowing if that's what was meant) but in later players it becomes such an obvious note to play on a major chord - or include in a voicing - that it doesn't really stand out in the same way.
Idiom is kind of everything, but obviously even with that we can't assume our responses map to those of the musician's contemporary audience (much less the musician themselves)
I feel a big part of that is quotations, cultural association and meanings. What would be an obvious quotation in the work of Bach would now require a high level of specialist knowledge to spot as the popular tunes of his era and community pass out of memory while his music remains. I think this is true of Bird. The High Society lick is part of the Nerdy Jazz Lore, but many players don't know that it is a quotation. In this case it might be analysed as a 'Ionian line that emphasises the chord tones of G major' or some such. Which isn't wrong, but it's not why Bird played it.
The cultural context is (perhaps inevitably) lost over time...
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I find it strange that Classical improvisation gets put on a pedestal. I mean, what about all the great Romantic instrumentalists who were great improvisers, people such as Liszt and Chopin? There have always been strains of improvisation in European art music (I use this term so as to avoid the ambiguous 'classical') but then its history has occurred mostly without the means of recording. I guess the baton got passed in the twentieth century onto jazz where it's assumed a much more central role, its raison d'etre, even. What is considered contemporary art music now is much more fragmented, but improvisation is definitely a thing, there is a list given here of recent or contemporary composers who use it: Musical improvisation - Wikipedia
Probably looking back to past eras with rose-coloured spectacles about the time when composers composed and improvised quickly in an agreed idiom is another facet of a kind of conservatism that wonders, simultaneously, why classical musicians now put the act of creating music on a pedestal.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by James W
If it makes you feel better, I was a jazz guitar student thrust into a classical major because of budget cuts and basically only did it because the department chair suggested I drop the major and transfer to another school later
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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This might interest you, or not. Three solos on Summertime. The first one's straight but the next two have subs (only the solo, not the chords):
Am/E7 - % - % - Am/A7
Dm - % - E7 - %
Am/E7 - % - % - %
CM7/Am - F7/E7 - Am - E7+
Am/E7 - % - % - Am/A7
Dm - % - E7 - %
Am/E7 - % - Bm - %
CM7/Am - F7/E7 - Am - E7+
Am/E7 - % - % - Am/A7
C#m - % - E7 - %
Am/E7 - % - % - %
F#7 - % - Am - E7+
I don't think they sound like wrong notes except one. That was the very last note of all, which was Bb over E7aug... which is technically not wrong, it just sounds wrongly placed.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by James W
I think you misunderstand the context, I'll try to explain.
Classical music undergrad students at elite conservatoires (as opposed to say, university music courses) are often very specifically focussed on a concert career. Needless to say the competition here is incredibly intense, and traditionally that's how these places are set up. Improvisation doesn't really fit into that unless they are maybe specialising in baroque music (in which case you'd probably be into it.) Would you want to teach improv to students who'd rather be in a practice room doing 'proper stuff'? (I mean I'd give it a go but I'm weird.)
The reality of it is not everyone gets to be the star. For those that aren't, improvisation could be really useful for branching out and finding other possibilities for a career other than the role of orchestral player or concert soloist etc which are out of the question for the majority of players in any case, even those at conservatoires. (Which is presumably why they are trying to teach this stuff to students,)
https://www.reddit.com/r/classicalmu...lliard_effect/
I think eventually the needle will move on this. The busiest musicians I know are seemingly capable of playing pretty much anything, including classical. But they can also improvise, groove, read chord symbols, and so on and so forth, and many compose too, writing library music and so on.
Teachers should IMO be well rounded music makers as well.
I find it strange that Classical improvisation gets put on a pedestal. I mean, what about all the great Romantic instrumentalists who were great improvisers, people such as Liszt and Chopin? There have always been strains of improvisation in European art music (I use this term so as to avoid the ambiguous 'classical') but then its history has occurred mostly without the means of recording. I guess the baton got passed in the twentieth century onto jazz where it's assumed a much more central role, its raison d'etre, even. What is considered contemporary art music now is much more fragmented, but improvisation is definitely a thing, there is a list given here of recent or contemporary composers who use it: Musical improvisation - Wikipedia
Probably looking back to past eras with rose-coloured spectacles about the time when composers composed and improvised quickly in an agreed idiom is another facet of a kind of conservatism that wonders, simultaneously, why classical musicians now put the act of creating music on a pedestal.
I'm not saying I'll ever be up to the level of, say, a generic professional composer of the C18 (obviously these guys trained from an early age) but I can see that it is fundamentally teachable. You need to learn the patterns and sequences and internalise them, which of course is the same thing you need to do to become conversant with, say, bebop vocabulary. It's not hard to see how Vivaldi or Corelli for instance used the Moti de Bassi in his compositions - it's very much on the surface (harder with Bach.)
OTOH more knowledge of the way these musicians learned music actually makes me more impressed, not less, but the likes of Mozart and Beethoven and so on. And even the less revolutionary composers, supremely skilful. I'm not sure if it democratises the Canon exactly, but it certainly creates a healthier relationship with it IMHO.
Another aspect though is how the Italians were essentially written out of the mainstream histories of C18 music when in fact they were supremely influential during this period. C19 German nationalism casts a long shadow in music. The likes of Schenker were a refinement of that trend. Here's a good paper on these and related subjects:
Just a moment...
As far as contemporary improvisation goes, I've met and jammed with some classical music students who are way more confident and better at "non-idiomatic" improv than I am. I'm also quite impressed by how differently composers think about improvisation to me. It's a different language and approach.Last edited by Christian Miller; 09-19-2024 at 01:29 PM.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by James W
I think Trinity Laban are being very smart by differentiating themselves from this traditionalist world. Mind you they don't have that many classical students these days (defunding of music edu in the state sector hasn't helped.)
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Originally Posted by James W
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Originally Posted by bediles
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Last edited by Bobby Timmons; 09-19-2024 at 04:47 PM.
Easy Jazz Phrases by Ear.
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