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Originally Posted by princeplanet
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09-18-2024 12:30 PM
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Originally Posted by acidskiffle
If the project isn't clear the danger is drifting off into a sea of indeterminate ideas, concepts and theories and getting thoroughly lost. So the first step is making sure the direction is quite clear.
So what exactly is the question you're trying to answer?
The question is, what is the best way to explain this to an audience as there is no one way to do it, and a lot of disagreement as to how to even begin to approach the music.
I thought an interesting paper would be to look at the solos of certain players, that the consensus agree are great solos, and talk about what makes them so. And even more specifically look at phrases, and talk about why they work so well in that given harmonic situation
To answer your question about who the audience is - it could be anyone really, the more accessible things are the better, but predominantly classical musicians.
You keep talking about an audience. So is this a written paper or a talk you're going to have to deliver? If it's a talk to a live audience - and even if it's not in some senses - the secret there is that it has to be tailored to that audience. It's no use trying to explain quantum theory to a bunch of ten-year olds. Or, it has to brought down to a level they can understand and absorb.
With classical musicians it's easier. They know their music and there'll be numerous examples of what and how things work in classical music too. It's not something confined to jazz. The expression may vary but the principle is the same.
Of course the problem then is whether qualia can be explained. What makes one thing attractive to one person and not another? And since there's apparently no concrete scientific answer it might be wiser not to linger too long on it. In any case, it's something that most people are happy to accept as a simple fact. Tastes vary. Some of it is definitely cultural, some personal, and so on.
I doubt if it's possible to explain a lot of this, that's the trouble. Why are they classically orientated and not jazzers? Some can be both. A lot of jazz players were classically trained and went over later. Why does a line/phrase work so well? Because it flows? Because it touches some part of us that appeals emotionally to us?
It's quite a tricky subject and I hope you won't spend most of the talk/paper saying 'It is this way but no one can explain it'!
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Originally Posted by acidskiffle
You’ll probably have to spend a fair amount of time defining basic terms, so I’d say keep it simple. Even then you might find it going over their heads. Classical musicians theory background tends to be a bit different and a lot less practically oriented.
It’s a bit frustrating some times haha. I honestly feel a few of my MA assignments were marked by people who didn’t really understand what I was talking about - so you have to be a bit careful.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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[QUOTE=pauln;1360191]"If you were to try and communicate to a non-jazz audience why an improvised line or lick works/sounds good, how would you go about it?"
That is the very true epitome of the real jazz performance,
not a TED Talk on phenomenological existentialism of jazz.
ahhh.and what key would that be in??
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Back when (yes..black & white TV!)
Dr. Billy Taylor had a show and would take the Jazz Mobile out to show/teach people about "jazz"
for me it was a fascinating..He would explain why the sounds of intervals make our ears like or dislike them.
His Playing was mysterious and wonderful--(the word--Full of Wonder!)
He had me transfixed .. and somehow I knew I had to be able to understand more about this stuff.
I think rather than trying to explain what "music" is to those who have no idea of its mechanics and could care less..introduce
something that will inspire the sense of wonder about the mysterious nature of music.
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Wynton Marsalis is one of the most articulate commentators on this subject:
Wynton Marsalis on “Teaching Young People About Jazz” - National Press Club Luncheon 1995 – Wynton Marsalis Official Website
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Originally Posted by acidskiffle
At the phenomenological level, no; the sound of a guitar is strictly invisible, non-numeric, non-verbal... the only language of music is music itself, paradoxically the reason that music is intrinsically self revealing.Last edited by pauln; 09-19-2024 at 10:16 AM.
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If it's for classical musicians, who should be no strangers to analysis (Schenkerian etc), then most aspects of the Jazz language obviously can be deconstructed (harmony, substitutions, melodic line construction, chromaticism etc). I'd be looking for idiomatic peculiarities that exist outside of classical pedagogy as the main challenge when attempting to explain what sounds good in the Jazz context.
For example, there are probably the odd incident of temporary modulations to IV7 in classical music, but nothing that "feels" like going to IV7 in Jazz which of course is the Blues part of Jazz, which needs a lot of explaining for many reasons, particularly when decoding bluesy Jazz lines that sound great but tend to defy straight jacket analysis.
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It’s possible to make somewhat objective statements about music - this musician is playing notes from this pitch set, this musician is playing behind the beat, this musician is playing consistently slightly sharp, and so on.
As to what sounds good, that’s subjective. A perfectly in tune saxophone in jazz might be out of tune in a classical context for instance. It’s not a bad thing if the sax is slightly sharp in jazz or behind the beat in the right way (which people - Germans- have been trying to formulate for a long time haha)
Many people think that jazz sounds bad, and you kind of need to listen to a lot of it for it to sound good. I remember when I first heard kind of Blue as a teenager it just sounded out of key to me. I obviously don’t think that now.
I think it’s not a forgone conclusion that classical musicians would even understand that jazz has an aesthetic and isn’t just random improvisation based on ‘vibes’. I’ve read numerous papers by classically trained academics who claim jazz is purely praxis based - ie process based. Which is nuts to me, but makes sense for historical reasons.
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It’s also worth pointing out that much classical music theory is an attempt to elevate aesthetics to a science, to formulate objective virtue in music. This casts a long shadow….
Jazz has resisted this so far…
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Christian -
I think your point about analysis being far more prevalent among players in jazz than classical music is a good one. Acidskiffle should probably base his paper/talk on why analysis is more important in jazz than classical. Why and how it's used isn't a difficult thing to cover bearing in mind that classical players read off the score whereas jazz involves improvisation.
By the sound of it, his project is aimed at ordinary players, not theory geeks. He can touch on why some lines sound jazzier than others but not get into too many consciousness mysteries for which there's no real explanation.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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That's why it's a theory :-)
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Originally Posted by ragman1
You gotta get hip, ragman.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Well, I'll play interesting color notes and you play a lot of nonsense. I don't mind, it's been done before :-)
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Originally Posted by ragman1
Their purpose in doing is not (generally) the same as classical musicians. The theory they use in doing so is also different.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by ragman1
But most classical theory isn’t about that. Most classical players have no interest in constructing new music on any level. They put the act of creating music on a pedestal and the theories of music they learn encourage this.
This may be shifting. A friend of mine has the unenviable job of trying to teach classical students at a prestigious conservatoire who would rather be practicing their concertos or whatever (as if there’s a career in that for most of them lol) to improvise in a classical idiom. I’ll check in and see how it’s going lol.
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Originally Posted by ragman1
I wish classical musicians did a bit more. I remember my old classical guitar teacher had me do jazz adjacent harmonic analysis on whatever I was playing. Partly because he was a really good teacher and knew those were the terms in which I was thinking, but also just because it was really helpful in getting me to hear a deceptive cadence here and a plagal there and an internal pedal over there. Classical music is interesting in that all the notes are there but if you’re not in tune with the musical shape of the piece, it’s remarkable how little of the actual music really makes it to the listener.
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