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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
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09-14-2024 09:17 AM
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Originally Posted by pamosmusicOriginally Posted by ccroftOriginally Posted by Christian Miller
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Well now that you’ve gotten a little affirmation, it would still be cool to hear what the changing and improving of the idea looks like to you.
Maybe some more affirmation in your future.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Maybe I'm dense, and if so, I definitely owe Bobby an apology-- I really thought EVERYBODY did this kind of stuff.
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Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
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Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
Your modular lick thing, which is kind of the same process but with a transcribed lick.
The thing I described, which is the same process but without the recording.
I had a teacher who used to suggest I record and transcribe myself and then do that with things that were cool.
Both of those also would be the same process but with something you presumably like, rather than with something you dislike.
Etc.
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I've spent a lot of time with lick books and a fair amount of time trying to lift fragments that I like from records, but surprising little of that really got into my playing.
Seeing and hearing another player, up close, execute a good lick (in my chops range) has gotten it into my playing very quickly, although not very often.
An assignment from a teacher to write out some of my own ideas for playing over ii V's was helpful and I still use one of those licks.
I don't really work on scat singing. I just do it, and I try to put it on the guitar as I sing. When I'm relaxed enough to do that on the bandstand, and I know the sound of the tune, I'm happiest with the result.
So, it seems to me that this is the skill I should focus on. When I get to the point where I can play the scatting immediately, at the required tempos, then it would be time to work on singing more sophisticated lines.
The background for this is that I play in several bands, each of which is usually focused on unfamiliar material. So a lot of this is a chart I've never seen suddenly directs me to solo and the changes may not seem all that easy. In some of those cases, the scatsinging thing doesn't work because I can't feel the harmony, having never heard it.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Assuming you have a moderate understanding of your instrument and music theory, when you can play a musical phrase that you hear than you understand its structure, the notes it contains and its tonality, and thus the harmonic context(s) it will suit. At that point there is no longer any training or extrapolation involved, you can hear it and recognize when it will be appropriate to play it.
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I don’t know man. Again … color me skeptical.
I would say for most people, the learning of the licks is the ear training.
and it’s finger training etc.
I will say, I’d be interested in hearing how you think your playing differs because of the way you practice. I’ve heard stories of Mark Turner mostly just transcribing what he heard in his head, but I’m no Mark Turner.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
In another thread on transcribing I mentioned that in olden pre-pc days we had no sound modulating apps like Slow Downer to use, so we had to listen to a musical phrase at it's normal speed, stop the recording, ask oneself, "what did I just hear?," then attempt to play it, "No, that's not what was played." Repeat the process 'til you get it right. This really developed my musical memory. I think it's what has led me to my current approach.
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Originally Posted by Mick-7
But honestly … it sounds like you’re saying you’re not much in need of the kind of stuff they’re talking about on this thread because you did it so much in the past. Which is kind of a different thing.
Like it sounds like you learned so many lines by ear that you don’t really need to do it much anymore.
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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I like the Peter Bernstein thing ‘how about I play it and see what it sounds like?’ Haha
Working by ear is great, but I always found it interesting that Ravel told Vaughan Williams to compose at the piano rather than purely in his head so he could invent new harmonies.
The implication seems to be that we can tend to fall into our well work patterns even when we are working purely by ear. And this makes sense.
Real world war training works in quite a modular way in my experience. You can pick a familiar lick, line or voicing. The purpose of learning licks off the record is to learn the vocabulary of common ‘words’, get gpod enough at that and it’s straightforward to work out bop lines etc (I’m told) but other stuff might pose much more of a challenge.
Which is not to say they couldn’t compose in their heads at all, or that Pete doesn’t also have great ears, but it’s a bit of yin, a bit of yang.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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the tune is the lick par excellence - embellishing it, hearing it differently, adding bits in handy gaps. I think that singing the tune generates loads of ideas in the minds of tune-singers.
and good licks are your friend too! I find that just after I play a cool idea (I'm nuts about the 'Mona Lisa' lick just now) - my own most personal hearing improves a great deal.
and of course you can spontaneously hear phrases you've heard in other peoples' solos - does that make them yours? i think it tends to - because you maybe put a kink into them that wasn't in the borrowed line - maybe because you don't re-hear them quite right....
it's such a pity that these chatty spaces for people into jazz guitar are typically so fraught
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Originally Posted by Groyniad
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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You know where licks are great? Turnarounds, licks are really great for turnarounds... bring it all around and give a nod to the top.
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Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
After the session I talked to that guy who played a great jazz violin. I told him that I am looking for people to play with but that I have the impression that he is a busy pro and would have no time for another project, He told me that he is teaching at the conservatory and very busy but he will tell his students that I am looking for musical companions. Seems like I actually can play a little.
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Originally Posted by Bobby Timmons
Regarding the "pecking order" you should maybe consult a shrink. I give a damn about pecking orders -- I have been an anarchist all of my life. But i know where my musical place is. I have jammed tonight with people who could have been my sons and daughters but who were light years better than I am. I would never call them "kids". I know my qualities and I know my deficiencies.
You asked me recently who I have studied with. I did not study with any Tony Monaco or so. I am an autodidact apart from recorder and piano lessons as a kid. And I studied life in the school of hard knocks. Which is probably why people consider my music and my singing and my playing authentic and true. I played probably 500+ concerts with my former band, partly in front of a few thousand people. I have worked as a tech guy at probably 1500+ concerts of any style you can imagine, from early Korn or Slipnot shows to Abdullah Ibrahim or the first Faithless concert in Germany. That was my conservatory. If I am talking about things I am talking from experience. Which does not mean that I would consider myself impeccable -- not at all. And all this does not make me a better human being. But probably I am not the worst musician on earth
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
had no idea it came from Picou.. wow these early jazz guys are heavyweights
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