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I'm posting this because recently I've been having some problems on my jazz studies. Actually, I'm a bit lost. I've already transcribed some jazz solos, from swing up to modern jazz, passing through each period. I've studied arpeggios, scales, chord changes, I've memorized repertoire, gigged, but I've come to a point where I get a standard (or not) and start playing, and I can't really do interesting, and good stuff. Of course I can play some licks, do the changes, even use some motifs (although I have weakness in ALL these areas).
So, I decided that I should focus on some jazz style, try to study the elements and start soloing in such a way that it makes sense!!! I think that the best thing that I could focus now is on bebop. Solos, compings, players, EVERYTHING. Really try to go as deep as I can, as my own ability permits. Besides, every modern jazzist from nowadays plays bebop perfectly... amazing bebopers !!
Well, the thing is that this semester I tried to start studying bebop, so I asked the people who knows and plays bebop, what should I do. First thing... transcribe Parker, but then, they told me about chromatic approach. Well, I started studying the CA on the instrument, on arpeggios first. How? Like this, I played all notes from the arpeggio coming from a b2 down, then from a b2 up, then mixing them, then 2M down, b2 up, back to chord tone, and continued.
The thing is that this sounds NOTHING like bebop... It's 10th April and I've lost like 3 months studying something wrongly !!!!!!! :shoots self:
Yes, I won't deny that it has given me some VERY interesting tools when soloing, gives a lot of color to plain arpeggios, sounds amazing... but that's not what I wanted to study.
Well I would like to know your opinion on this, and why people talk about chromatic apporoach as bebop, even tho it doesn't sound bebop (maybe because it started there?).
Also, I would love to have some help on approach on studying bebop jazz. Which standards to play, scales to use, substitutions... maybe a list of solos for me to transcribe? Would be a HUGE help if I could get some guidance...
Thank you VERY much !
Zhivago
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Hey Man,
I totally feel your pain!!! I struggled with this stuff for years. Here are a few things I've found that really helped me in playing Bop and Hard Bop. Hopefully they'll help you out of your rut.
1) Using one octave scale fingerings. For me it was really hard to navigate through fast chord changes when using larger, two or three octave scales and modes. It was like trying to run up the stairs with a piano on my back! So I've worked on learning my scales and modes in one octave chunks that are easier to move arounds and see when the tempo is fast and the chords move quickly. I've attached a .pdf of these fingerings for you to check out.
2) Adding chromatic notes to my scales. Instead of thinking about putting passing notes between the 4th and 5th, or other notes, I put chromatic notes in by using fingerings. For example, in a C major scale the notes E F and G are a 124 fingering. So the first finger plays the E, the second F and the 4th G. So after transcribing and analysing solos I've found a bunch of licks that are idiomatic to Bop that fit within this fingering. Like, 43241, all 8th notes. I've attached a .pdf that has chromatic licks from transcriptions that work with 124, 24 and 134 fingerings. This way you are not trying to think of intevals and note names when the tempo and chords are flying by. You can just focus on playing solid time and outlining the chords using these fingerings instead.
3) Break down 2-5's to either 2 or 5. A lot of famous players did this, for example if Charlie Parker saw a Dm7/G7 progression he would just think of it as a G7/G7 progression. If Martino saw the same two chords he would think about it as Dm7/Dm7. They would do this so that it eliminated one level of thinking when blowing, but they still could outline the harmony and run the changes as Dm7 and G7 are "considered" the same chord in jazz harmony. When combined with the one octave scale fingerings, you can now just focus on blowing on a small fingering and one chord, instead of two chords and large 6 string scale fingerings.
4) Always focusing on playing good solid time. It will take a while to be able to "run changes" and nail everything all the time. BUT in the meantime, everytime we practice we can focus on playing good solid driving time, especially with our 8th notes. To me alot of Bop and Hard Bop is not the note choices, Miles was Bop but so was Parker Trane and Rollins all of which played different harmonic ideas, but the way in which players attacked their 8th notes. Playing good solid time is a lot harder than most people think, and I've talked to great players who say that they stopped practicing scales and licks years ago but are constantly working on playing better time.
That's how I think about things. It took me 10 years at 5-7 hours a day of practicing and 200+gigs a year to work this stuff out. So it won't be easy, and to me that 's the whole fun of it!! It's a struggle but once you get to a point where you are comfortable playing in the Bop style, to me at least, it's more than worth all the late nights and sweat I've put into it.
MW
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m78w,
Thanks A LOT !!!! I will start with this approach right away.
The breaking down part I had already started using it, and helped a lot of course, still the bebop sound wouldn't appear.
I have two more questions,
On Bebop, players used to outline the harmony A LOT. This was accomplished how? By playing arpeggios? Guide tones? How could I study this area, sounding bebop. I've studied chord tones, and guide tones, but maybe I need to have them clearer? easier to find?
And I wanted to know what kind of solos would you recomend for me to transcribe (I enjoy transcribing entire solos), and also what standards are good for starting to get a bebop sound.
Thanks a lot ! You've been a great help ...
Zhivago
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Hey Zhivago,
You are right on track with outlining harmony in the bebop style. When I first took jazz lessons I asked my teacher Nick Ditomasso "how to I sound like jazz, like bebop" and his reply was "arpeggios up, scales down".
Now this is very simplified, but it's a very good place to start. Start by practicing a tune, say a blues or standard, and play the one octave arpeggio up and the scale down for each chord, try and add some chromatics going down when you can. Do this in a bunch of positions and you're well on your way to sounding like Bop.
The other thing that boppers did was instead of using the 1-7 arpeggio for each chord, so C E G Bb for C7, they would use what's called the 3 to 9 arpeggio, so E G Bb D for C7, or Em7b5 instead of C7. There is an easy formula for figuring out the 3-9 arps for each chord type.
Maj7 = min7 off the 3rd
Min7 = Maj7 off the 3rd
7 = m7b5 off the 3rd
m7b5 = min7 off the 3rd
7b9 = dim7 off the 3rd
That's a good place to start, so now play the 3-9 arpeggios for all the chords of a blues or standard up and the scales, with chromatics where possible, on the way down. This will give you the ability to outline the chords in a bebop fashion and to get the bebop chromatic sound going at the same time.
For guide tones you can use the standard 3rd and 7th tones that are common in bop. But there are a bunch more you can use to get deeper into the voice leading. I've attached a page I wrote that outlines all of the "other" guide tones.
As for solos here are 10 that are great to transcribe by guitar players in the Bop and Hard Bop style.
1) Movin' Along Wes
2) It Could Happen to You Johnny Smith
3) I Remember You Johnny Smith
4) Joy Spring Joe Pass
5) Just Friends Pat Martino
6) Blues for Herb Emily Remler
7) D Natural Blues Wes
8) April in Paris Jimmy Rainey
9) Minor League Jake Langley
10) Someday My Prince Will Come Grant Green
MW
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This is a fabulous topic!
Lucky for me I search for bebop everywhere, and run into this kind of gold...
I just tried the 3-9 arpeggio idea, and it really adds some bop flavour to the changes, I had tried to do arps off the 3rd, and had a feeling this was important, but this is more in detail to offer structure to the wobbly vehicle which should become bebop in the end...
I think now's the time (see, it's everywhere) to get practicing, I'll get through it tonight, and tomorrow, well, all of my tomorrows, will be tedious repetitions until it's glued solid into this poor head of mine.
What about a sharp 4? could that be utilized in any manner?, I saw something about 1,2,3,4,#4, or something, if you go on to the 6, M7 etc...
Just wondering.
Peace
Skei (the long time passing one)
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the 3-9 arpeggio...so that's what it's called...
i like you college types, matt. i'd been doing this stuff but never had such a snappy name for it...i guess that's what happens when you learn jazz from a 70 year old piano player!
a typical exchange with him was "okay, so over the Em7b5 i'm going to play G minor."
YOUNG ME: "okay...lemme write this down...now why?"
HIM: "Because it has a B flat, silly."
lucky for me, i was able to absorb enough of this stuff before he passed away.
but, sob stories aside, i feel this idea is especially important over the m7b5, as m7b5 arpeggios always sound "obvious" to my ears.
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Yes in deed sir!
And for us unlucky guys who haven't had the chance to learn from someone like your teacher, we're happy to have such a splendid and outrageously jazzy spot like this to see us through the hardships of getting it all in. All those years in rock, I may have accidentally touched a note now and then which might be considered to have some kind of bearing in these circles, but never realized it, just a cool sound, forgotten two minutes later...
I remember vividly my feeling of pure happiness when I struggled through the lesson on chromatics, adding a bit of jazz to the scales, that feeling, I heard jazz from my guitar, and it was a miracle. I tried to understand what made it so groovy, the simple combination of notes spread out there on the fretboard, how should I work things to get that feeling again?
I tried every scale I could think of, got a feeling it might have something to do with diminished scale or something. Did all I could to get that sound, that sensation.
No luck.
What was it...
Tried to learn arpeggios, they worked, but the feeling just wouldn't come back.
These last few days I've read a lot on different sites about tensions and adding this and that note to the chord and scale, among other things I read a piece on the sharp 4, and that gave some spice, but not to the extent that was needed.
Actually, I've been sitting here by the computer with my guitar in lap for between 6 and ten hours a day for a week now, desperately seeking clarity, and I saw something a day or so ago about playing arpeggios off the 3rd, and that inspired me, but I had no guide to the minor 7 becoming major 7 et c. And today I did a google on 'Bebop+arpeggio' and lo; this post at our beloved jazzguitar.be comes up, among several others that didn't seem to have it. So I rapidly went here, and found this, this answer to all my prayers. Why aren't people talking about this? This actually saved my future. Now I get the sound from that lesson, and believe me, I was on the verge of giving it up, feeling I'd never get that sound, that sound that is so special to jazz, that sound that separates jazz from all other music to my ears, my heart and my soul...
Understand how I looked at the lesson, and just couldn't get any scale or mode to give that sound, I'm so damn (excuse me) happy now, my brain isn't out of order, there is a way, yup...
Peace
&
Jazz explained
Skei (the extremely satisfied (probably simple minded but)one)
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well, after doing some research, studying and listening a lot, I must say that bebop is much easier than what I thought it was (I'm still not getting the sound but I'm going that way)...
Bebop = Dexter Gordon !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
live at montreux... he's pure swing
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To me Coltrane always had a TON of Dexter in his playing. I've actually listened to early Trane and swore it was Dex.
MW
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This is awesome stuff. I remember a while ago when I first started working on the jazz I heard that arpeggios up and scales down was a pretty good part of the jazz sound. I tried practicing it, but it was enough of a challenge to navigate the changes and stuff so it didn't stick. Slipped my mind until now. I think I'll have to try that out now that I'm getting into the bop stuff and can actually (kind of) play it.
By the way...
I learned the first eight bars of Donna Lee today. It took me about as long to learn those eight bars as it did to learn the entire Scrapple from the Apple and Oleo heads together. haha.
Indeed... it's all I heard it would be. And thanks again for all the great advice.
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Just curious... Why is the arps up and scales down thing such a big deal?
I'm not trying to sound sarcastic. It's an honest question. It's huge in bebop stuff especially and it does seem to contribute to the vibe. I was just downstairs playing over some slower swings trying that kind of stuff and it did seem to give the lines a little bebop jump. I was just curious if there was a musical reason why like particular notes on particular beats (the way the bebop scale is) or if that's just the way it is. Thanks again for the great suggestions. I'm just curious about the music behind it.
By the way MW. I just printed out your two posts. Awesome stuff. I was going to print out your "other guide tones" sheet but I think that might be a little further down the road. I think I swiped all I can handle for the time. Thanks a lot.
Last edited by DMatthewsBand07; 08-19-2008 at 12:43 AM.
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Glad you dug the posts.
I guess the answer to your question is that by playing arps up and scales, with chromatics, down the accents produce that "bebop" sound.
It's just kinda the way it is, sorry there's no "scientific" answer.
MW
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That's alright. That's kind of what I figured. Thanks.
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Hello Everybody:
This particular thread is really really good.I am having trouble with the arpeggio up and scale down thing. If I have a bar of i.e. Dm7 in eighth notes and have four notes up and four down in the bar I can play the 3-9 four note arpeggio up in the first half.I had read that, by the way are we using the bebop scale on the down cycle?If so if I accent the first beat and every other I emphasize the chord tones.Since I only have four notes I can use in the second half of the bar I am in trouble. I probably have the structure wrong, so I am asking for a simple example and then I will know how to apply the concept.
And the chromatic exercises are really starting to sound good to my ears.
My last question is about guide tones. What is the definition? I see them in the pdf files but I would like to hear an authoritative source.
Thanks in Advance
RichVincent
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You can use any number of chromatics on the way down, for example.
Use the 3-9 on the way up, F A C E, over the Dm9 chord.
Then on the way down you could use:
D Db C B
D C B Bb
Eb D Db C
The last one looks odd, but resolves rather nicely, especially if the next chord is Cmaj7, so the C resolves down the the 7th, B of C.
Guide tones are any notes that resolve up or down by a semi-tone, or in some cases a tone, to the next chord in the progression.
Certain guide tones are more important than others.
3rds and 7ths are good on any chord.
11ths are great on m7 chords.
b9 and b13 are good on dominant 7th chords.
MW
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Matt:
A more concise and short example I could not have asked for.So it looks like the arpeggio outlines the chord on the way up and the chromatics lend the jazzy spice on the way down.
Thanks Again
RichVincent
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Hey Rich,
Yeah I've often wondered why jazz makes itself seem so complicated. One example I give my students is learning math. Math can get very complicated but what's the first thing they teach students? To break everything down to the lowest common denominator, a few digestable chunks that we can understand and easily apply to solve a complex problem.
I've spent so many years trying to understand and apply complex theoretical concepts. Then one day I started breaking them down to smaller chunks that I already could understand and voila! I could do complex things that had seemed impossible just days before.
These things may seem hard to understand and hard to apply, but by breaking them down, or relating them to material you already know, you'll be suprised how fast this stuff comes along!
MW
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Matt:
I have been working on your post #4, building 3-9 arps from the third and have a little problem. For example Gmin7b5 is G Bb Db F. However if I build a min7 from the third ( the Bb ) I get Bb Db F Ab instead of Bb Db F A. The A would give me the ninth. I am probably screwing up somewhere. I really like the 3-9 arpeggios. I wish there was a way of doing an exercise like the cycle of fifths with chords and chromatics, like the drop II cycle, which I practice religiously.Anyway, what's with the Ab?
Thanks
Rich
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Nope you got it.
The b9 implies a locrian scale. 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 1. As opposed to the 6th mode of Melodic Minor which is 1 2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7 1. So the Ab is fine over the Gm7b5.
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Dave Matthews Band 007:
Thanks a lot on that one. Using the A would have taken me into a melodic minor mode. I should have known that but I have been studying jazz really for about six months or so and am really a kid compared to all you guys, except for my age, 64. Thanks again.
Rich
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That's it, over a m7b5 chord I tend to just play the root arpeggio because it's so unique.
But check this out!
Gm7b5-C7alt-Fm7
I like to use Gm7b5 - Bbm7b5(From the C altered scale) - Dm7b5 (Outlines a Fm6 chord.
Cool way to take one idea and just move it around to get three totally different sounds!
MW
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One of the most overlooked aspects of be bop is the rhythm. Check out the rhythm. Click your fingers on 2 and 4 and sing moose the mooche or oleo or other. Now, apply those rhythms to the arpeggios. Add some serious swing. Now you're cookin!!
Mike
Mike Walker Guitarist - Jazz, fusion and funk player, teacher and improviser based in Manchester, UK
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Good idea mr walker!
I tried it just now, and it really does wonders, this must be part of the magic 'timing' concept I suppose?
Well anyhow, I'll try to work it into my automatic register because it feels jazzy, that's for sure.
Peace
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harmony
Skei (the 'on 2 & 4' one)
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nice one Skei,
It's nuts how the rhythmic aspect of Be Bop gets overlooked. The arps, tritone subs, upper and lower nieghbour tones etc are given life when rhythm takes them for a dance.
And the other ingredient is Accents.
Pop those notes. Like the word 'pepper'. Listen to Clifford Brown.
Mike
Mike Walker Guitarist - Jazz, fusion and funk player, teacher and improviser based in Manchester, UK
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hello all ...i'm new to the site and like to have my guitar by my side when i'm surfing the net. i came up on this site when i typed in 'bebop runs on guitar'. maybe i can learn a bit from you fellow guitarists.
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