What did early Jazz guitarists in America play live pre-swing era?

[Vitellozzo]

This is part historical part practical question. We know that the banjo (tenor and plectrum) was favoured in early trad Jazz (NOLA through Dixieland but not Swing) because it was louder and ruder and it could penetrate through the loud brass instruments. In the 30s, full amplification killed the banjo and the guitar took the place of the banjo, at least in Swing and then be-bop.

But what were guitar players doing in that period before amplification? I mean live. Were they playing solo guitar? What style did they play (blues, ragtime, fingerstyle, etc)? What kind of guitar (6 strings, 4 strings)? What tuning (standard tuning, all 5th tuning, plectrum banjo tuning)? Etc.

Was the style pioneered by Eddie Lang the only one? I can hear echo or banjo technique in that style. Do we have a full historical picture of the 1890-1930 period, when it comes to Jazz/blues/ragtime guitar?

I read a few books on the subject but they remain quite vague when it comes to that period.

I tend to think that a guitar player could find a role as a live player only if he played ragtime or, alternatively, folk(ish) music.

Any contribution on this matter is welcome, in particular techniques and tunings.

[AllanAllen]

Nick Lucas was another pre-swing guitar player.

[RLetson]

There are enough reissues of 20s-30's recordings to give an idea of the guitar's range and role in the pre-amplification period, though for big-band performance the recording tech probably doesn't serve the guitarists well. For small-group work, though, you can hear it pretty well--for example, Al Casey, who was a crucial part of Fats Wallers's Rhythm; or Alan Reuss with Arnold Ross or Goodman's small groups. And of course there's the chamber jazz of the Eddie Lang-Joe Venuti duets and the likes of Carl Kress and Dick McDonough. There are compilations that cover most of this kind of material--I'd make a list, but I'd have to go downstairs and read my shelves. But the aural record is there to hear.

[Doug B]

A good album to get an overview of early guitar in jazz is:

"Pioneers of the Jazz Guitar"

Doug

[ruger9]

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[Vitellozzo]

There are enough reissues of 20s-30's recordings to give an idea of the guitar's range and role in the pre-amplification period, though for big-band performance the recording tech probably doesn't serve the guitarists well. For small-group work, though, you can hear it pretty well--for example, Al Casey, who was a crucial part of Fats Wallers's Rhythm; or Alan Reuss with Arnold Ross or Goodman's small groups. And of course there's the chamber jazz of the Eddie Lang-Joe Venuti duets and the likes of Carl Kress and Dick McDonough. There are compilations that cover most of this kind of material--I'd make a list, but I'd have to go downstairs and read my shelves. But the aural record is there to hear.

Thanks for that, but I am also interested in how to recreate that sound. What guitars were they using? Did they all use the pick or were they finger picking? What tuning? Foe example, Carl Kress used a hybrid tuning that reminds of tenor and plectrum banjo. Was he the only one?

Sorry for being picky, but I don't know where to start. I mean, I used to play 6 strings guitar, now I have started the tenor guitar but still I am not sure if I can reproduce that early 1900s saloon kind of music that I have in mind.

[mr. beaumont]

Well keep in mind, these players may have sounded a lot more like guitars sound today, but limitations in recording quality paint a different picture.

[AllanAllen]

Eddie Lang, Allan Reuss, Nick Lucas all used standard tuning. Like Beaumont said, the sound is 90% recording technology of the time. They more played Gibson archtops.

Link to the compilation that was recommended Pioneers of the Jazz Guitar.

https://youtube.com/playlist?list=OLAK5uy_l4CDYpEvoebnV4PBzx9_dZDt30gl jCMHg&si=UAksEgfCcAlRgwJr

[Bflat233]

The Blues.

"The Story of Jazz" by Marshall Stearns is a great read with many insights on jazz music generally and a few details on the guitar.

[Litterick]

Was the style pioneered by Eddie Lang the only one? I can hear echo or banjo technique in that style. Do we have a full historical picture of the 1890-1930 period, when it comes to Jazz/blues/ragtime guitar?

Before Eddie Lang, the guitar was mostly a parlour instrument, seldom found in jazz bands or dance orchestras. Lang had played banjo, from 1920 with various acts, but took up guitar in 1924 when he played with the Mound City Blue Blowers, a novelty jazz act which had a banjoist. Lang's influence led to guitarists being recruited into jazz bands and replacing the banjo — several years before the electric guitar.

Leonard Feather describes the early history of jazz guitar in his Book of Jazz, a section which was republished in The Guitar in Jazz, an excellent anthology edited by James Sallis:

Little change was effected in jazz banjo during the early 1920s; the guitar for the most part was quiescent. Every band had its banjo man: Will Johnson or Bud Scott with Oliver, Charlie Dixon with Henderson, Freddy Guy with Ellington, Lew Black with the New Orleans Rhythm Kings, Johnny St. Cyr with the early version of Armstrong's Hot Five. Their four-to-the-bar strumming threaded the rhythm section together but added little or nothing of durable solo value. Lonnie Johnson, a guitarist who had played on the Mississippi riverboats with Charlie Creath, became a recording artist in 1925 and soon had to his credit the luster of disc associations with Duke Ellington and Louis Armstrong. With him came the first signs of melodic continuity and tonal depth, of a maturation beyond the metallic plunking that had characterized so many of his predecessors.

Eddie Lang was the first to elevate the guitar to the stature of horns and piano as an adult jazz voice. Lang could play the blues with an earthy feeling that, for some Southern-oriented skeptics, belied his Philadelphia background; but he could also do for the guitar what Bix was doing for the comet and Venuti for the violin, in the sense that all three combined unprecedented tonal purity with the gently swinging grace of an aerialist. In recording duets with Lonnie Johnson (under the pseudonym of "Blind Willie Dunn", presumably a more authentic name than Eddie Lang for the 'race record" market), in duos and quartets with Venuti, and innumerable sides with the small jazz groups and large commercial orchestras such as Whiteman's and Goldkette's, Lang became one of the most accessible artists on wax; his early death in 1933 left a void that was never filled. At a time when guitarists were strumming simple, unaltered chords, Lang not only expanded the harmonic horizon but developed a single-string solo technique that was a decade ahead of its time, for not until 1939, with the advent of Charlie Christian and the electric amplifier, did the guitar step permanently out of the shadows of the rhythm section.

There were others who accomplished the difficult task of transferring the language of Lang to their own guitars: Carl Kress and the late Dick McDonough were among the most talented, devising well-meshed duets more noteworthy for their slickness than for intensity or depth; George Van Eps and others of that well known plectrist family were early arrivals, but none quite captured the spark that had radiated from Lang.

[Christian Miller]

This is part historical part practical question. We know that the banjo (tenor and plectrum) was favoured in early trad Jazz (NOLA through Dixieland but not Swing) because it was louder and ruder and it could penetrate through the loud brass instruments. In the 30s, full amplification killed the banjo and the guitar took the place of the banjo, at least in Swing and then be-bop.

But what were guitar players doing in that period before amplification? I mean live. Were they playing solo guitar? What style did they play (blues, ragtime, fingerstyle, etc)? What kind of guitar (6 strings, 4 strings)? What tuning (standard tuning, all 5th tuning, plectrum banjo tuning)? Etc.

Was the style pioneered by Eddie Lang the only one? I can hear echo or banjo technique in that style. Do we have a full historical picture of the 1890-1930 period, when it comes to Jazz/blues/ragtime guitar?

I read a few books on the subject but they remain quite vague when it comes to that period.

I tend to think that a guitar player could find a role as a live player only if he played ragtime or, alternatively, folk(ish) music.

Any contribution on this matter is welcome, in particular techniques and tunings.

It's a great question. the guitar is SO much quieter than the banjo it's hard to see how it could have caught on!

Here is what I know, FWIW. I've played all-acoustic jazz guitar gigs, so I have some experience in this area.

The music was the jazz and popular music of the time. Hot jazz (like the Hot Fives and Sevens), sweet dance orchestra style music (like Paul Whiteman etc), variants of string band jazz, jug band music, later swing, dance orchestras. There wasn't so much to separate jazz, blues and country back then as there is today. And while ragtime is an earlier style distinct from jazz, to modern ears there's a lot of commonality. There were also now forgotten trends for things like mandolin orchestras and Hawaiian music which was VERY important for the development of the instruments.

Before the main gig was rhythm guitar. Rhythm guitar is not really meant to distinctly audible, but a blend with drums and bass. Chord solos could punch through on a well set up archtop. Beyond that, guitar found a natural home in smaller ensembles such as string groups (most famously the Hot Club of France but also in the US), jug bands (like Teddy Bunn) and small dixieland ensembles (like the Bechet/Spanier Big Four with Carmen Mastren). Dixieland is kind of seperate from early jazz BTW - it was a recreation... late 1930's/40's musicians trying to get back to the source haha.

The acoustic guitar technique of the era is designed to absolutely maximise projection. The rest stroke has become associated with Gypsy jazz guitar, but was common to all players of acoustic plucked instruments to project their sound. The instrument set ups conversely, were BRUTAL, often featuring a wound B string and a high action. That said, Django was shredding it up on .10 Argentines! But he wasn't gigging with an orchestra.

The style of drumming back then helped too.. less cymbal, more on the snare and hat, hide heads and smaller cymbals. Large modern ride cymbals tend to obliterate an acoustic guitar. Basses played gut strings. Horns played more to the level of the rhythm section - this was quite a known thing about the Basie orchestra even late in their career. People just used to play softer, and I suspect audiences were quieter.

Stages were set up for acoustic performance. You often see the bass player on a hollow riser for example, to act as a natural amplifier. The stages generally had acoustic band shells, long since gone. You can still find such thing in old school band stands... They are interesting. They definitely help you hear the guitar - I've played under one in my local park with a hot club style group. It was striking how much it helped.

These were all acoustic solutions to problems that would be later addressed by PA systems and microphones. Bands would get louder.

And you mention Eddie, who was a single string soloist, and I think most of him would credit him as one of the earliest if not the earliest in that respect (perhaps Nick Lucas, but Nick played more of an arpeggio style to my ears). So that's a bit of mystery to me.

TBH it's possible he just wasn't very audible on gigs. A colleague knew an old guy who had heard Django at Alexandra Palace before the war.... or rather he didn't hear him. There's a reason why electric guitar took off...

EDIT: The Sallis book is good BTW, I have it.

[RJVB]

I think one name is missing here, even if he was born only in 1900 so maybe a little late in this context:
Roy Smeck - Wikipedia

Before Eddie Lang, the guitar was mostly a parlour instrument, seldom found in jazz bands or dance orchestras. [...]

An interesting enough read, but was that out of some AI aggregator?

Modern banjos are very loud (very little sustain though) but how certain are we that the banjos of the time could be comparably loud?

[Christian Miller]

Yeah, good point,banjos would certainly have had hide heads, not sure if that affects the volume. I mean everything’s got a bit louder, horns… Selmer mk6 compared to the old Balanced action horns for example. I’d surprised if banjos themselves hadn’t got louder too.


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[sgcim]

I think one name is missing here, even if he was born only in 1900 so maybe a little late in this context:
Roy Smeck - Wikipedia



An interesting enough read, but was that out of some AI aggregator?

Modern banjos are very loud (very little sustain though) but how certain are we that the banjos of the time could be comparably loud?

I met Roy Smeck once at a gig in a country club in Westchester. He came up to me and complimented my playing. He wrote down his phone # and invited me to come up to his studio sometime. I told him my father had one of his method books, and he was very happy about that. Nice guy.

[Litterick]

An interesting enough read, but was that out of some AI aggregator?

Modern banjos are very loud (very little sustain though) but how certain are we that the banjos of the time could be comparably loud?

No, it was written by Leonard Feather, co-editor of Metronome magazine, chief jazz critic for the Los Angeles Times.

Sallis notes (p12) that studio and stage veteran Hy White recalled in 1978, "When a band played a waltz or a soft ballad, the banjo player typically switched to guitar." Nick Lucas, who started out accompanying his accordionist brother on the mandolin, recalled that his brother later "had me learn guitar so it could be used as more of a background, since the mandolin was primarily a lead instrument." After graduating high school in 1915, Lucas found work in a club, where he played a banjeaurine — a mandolin with a banjo head — because the club where he played with a pianist and a violinist wanted more volume than a guitar. "Eventually they went haywire and put in a drummer", Lucas recalls.

The early jazz guitarists like Lucas were Italian Americans who started out playing christenings and weddings, then played in night clubs. This was before the big bands were formed and the ballrooms where they played were built. When the Roseland opened in 1919, Lucas played there in Sam Lanin's band, with a tenor banjo and a guitar — for waltzes, because it was difficult to play three-quarter beat on the banjo. When they made recordings, Lucas would play his banjo at the back of the room with the tuba player, because both instruments made enough noise to make the needle jump out of the groove. To solve that problem, he brought his guitar to a session and sat under the horn, like the dog in the His Master's Voice logo.

[RJVB]

Yeah, good point,banjos would certainly have had hide heads, not sure if that affects the volume.

How certain are we that they always had steel strings, in fact? So-called classical banjos were gut-strung so the transition must have taken place at some point.

I mean everything’s got a bit louder, horns… I’d surprised if banjos themselves hadn’t got louder too.

As loud as you need nowadays, or at least I'm pretty certain I've seen plugged-in banjos in bluegrass and related music...

No, it was written by Leonard Feather, co-editor of Metronome magazine, chief jazz critic for the Los Angeles Times.

Heh, I didn't want to ask to directly if you just cited someone (but providing the citation would have been appropriate in this case!)

[Bop Head]

Just came across this one:

https://youtube.com/watch?v=OWUgm8wRprQ

[Christian Miller]

Also Lucas wasn’t even playing an archtop but a steel string flattop

(Usually when muppets on YouTube talk about the first signature model guitar they think it’s the Clapton strat. Actually it was the Nick Lucas guitar in 1923, which is a great dad fact no one cares about. It had a deeper body than a standard concert model of the time according to Wikipedia.)


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[Christian Miller]

How certain are we that they always had steel strings, in fact? So-called classical banjos were gut-strung so the transition must have taken place at some point.

Not certain at all

Banjo stuff gets complicated because it is in fact several distinct instruments conflated into one. Fred Van Eps played ‘classical banjo’ though didn’t he? Was that fingerstyle on a plectrum banjo?

I think plectrum was standard for jazz, maybe tenor. But Johnny St Cyr played six string guitar banjo didn’t he? He soloed a lot like a guitarist on single notes.

I suppose you could see the banjo body as an amplification technology that can be applied to any plucked string instrument with any tuning - a very venerable one going back to the ancient Egyptians and Sumerians (3000BCE according to one thing I read (!))

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[RJVB]

Also Lucas wasn’t even playing an archtop but a steel string flattop

The boundaries between those 2 types can be pretty vague if you accept that archtops can also "arched by glueing on preformed braces" (under constraint, whatever). That would in fact make just about every classical guitar an archtop too.
(I was looking at Stefan Sobell's website yesterday, which features many instruments that have a clearly not-dead-flat top.)

Side-thought: exactly what do we know about the possible use of metal-but-not-steel strings? There's a whole family of instruments that predates the steel-strung guitar (or banjo) significantly, after all.
Pyramid still make bronze trebles; I only haven't tried them yet because I haven't been able to figure out what gauges I'd need and what lifetime to expect.

I suppose you could see the banjo body as an amplification technology that can be applied to any plucked string instrument with any tuning - a very venerable one going back to the ancient Egyptians and Sumerians (3000BCE according to one thing I read (!))

I used to have a souvenir tourist prop instrument someone brought back from Africa: a tortoise shell with a piece of hide spanned over it, a floating (bamboo?) "bridge" and a more or less straight branch sticking out of the neck opening. Simple enough that it could have been "invented" even before the Sumerians.

No reason that you couldn't play such instruments with a bow, btw!

[Vitellozzo]

Before Eddie Lang, the guitar was mostly a parlour instrument, seldom found in jazz bands or dance orchestras.

I am actually interested also in the pre Eddie Lang era. Yes, guitar was a parlour instrument, but what genres were played? Did guitarists play unaccompanied or in a band?

[Christian Miller]

The boundaries between those 2 types can be pretty vague if you accept that archtops can also "arched by glueing on preformed braces" (under constraint, whatever). That would in fact make just about every classical guitar an archtop too.
(I was looking at Stefan Sobell's website yesterday, which features many instruments that have a clearly not-dead-flat top.)

It depends on the year. More info here Nick Lucas - Gibson Nick Lucas Special

Early archtops are not exactly L5s either.

Side-thought: exactly what do we know about the possible use of metal-but-not-steel strings? There's a whole family of instruments that predates the steel-strung guitar (or banjo) significantly, after all.

Afiak monel or mona-steel was standard on steel string guitars from 1930, with bronze coming in towards the end of the 30s. Don’t know what people used before then - possibly silver plated steel? I used Monel strings (Martin Retro strings) a while, they are more consistent than modern bronze strings that have a ‘break in’ period. Here’s some info from Jonathon Stout’s research:

Guitar String Composition and Swing Guitar


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[RJVB]

Early archtops are not exactly L5s either.

But early Gibson archtops sold as such were carved.

Afiak monel or mona-steel was standard on steel string guitars from 1930, with bronze coming in towards the end of the 30s.

Brass, not bronze (which was introduced only in '76 or so IIRC).

But I was talking about the trebles (and possible the core wire used in the wound strings).

[mr. beaumont]

Heavy strings though, whatever the composition...Lang used a wound B!

[Litterick]

I am actually interested also in the pre Eddie Lang era. Yes, guitar was a parlour instrument, but what genres were played? Did guitarists play unaccompanied or in a band?

Italian and Spanish music, mostly, since the guitar was most popular in America in those two communities. The guitar was becoming more popular elsewhere, not least because Orville Gibson had made his first archtop in 1900, and his firm was busy promoting it. I think the guitar was usually played solo or with one other instrument — piano or violin. Popular songs of the day would have been played from sheet music.