Bebop Technique

[Christian Miller]

How do you make up your worksheets
Peter? They look nice.


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[Bop Head]

How do you make up your worksheets
Peter? They look nice.


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I am not Peter, but this looks simply like the Finale Maestro music font plus Times New Roman for the text.

[pamosmusic]

I am not Peter, but this looks simply like the Finale Maestro music font plus Times New Roman for the text.

Peter? Hello?

Yeah my secret? Never use jazz font.

It’s just finale. I’ve gotten pretty good at the spacing and stuff over time. Not sure beyond that.

[Bop Head]

[...] Never use jazz font. [...]

I have never understood why people would voluntarily use ugly imitations of handwritten notation. Probably they think jazz notation has to look like that because of the handwritten notation in the original Real Book.

Yes, your sheets look really good, although Times New Roman is not my favorite serif font.

[Christian Miller]

Peter? Hello?

Yeah my secret? Never use jazz font.

It’s just finale. I’ve gotten pretty good at the spacing and stuff over time. Not sure beyond that.

I find that sort of thjng hard to do on Musescore. Perhaps it’s a skills issue. I just end up posting a million screenshots into word which is LAME


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[Christian Miller]

Bop Head is a man of specific tastes.


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[GuyBoden]

I find that sort of thjng hard to do on Musescore. Perhaps it’s a skills issue. I just end up posting a million screenshots into word which is LAME

No it’s not a skills issue, I'm a software Engineer and I don't find MuseScore very good, but it's free to download and use that's why it's popular.

[Christian Miller]

I mean neither was Sibelius… and that cost a lot more


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[Bop Head]

I find that sort of thjng hard to do on Musescore. Perhaps it’s a skills issue. I just end up posting a million screenshots into word which is LAME


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You know you can shift text frames up and down with the arrow keys? You know how to not stretch shorter examples over the full page-width? You know how to change text fonts in MS 4? (Probably you know all these things, but that is what I would use to get a better page layout. On my to-do-list is integrating Lilypond into TeX, ConTeXt to be more exact, but that is a longer undertaking from which I expect to get the best layout results.) And instead of making screenshots I would export a PDF, import it into Inkscape and export as an SVG having only the size of the example. Vector graphics quality vs. pixel graphics.

[pamosmusic]

You know you can shift text frames up and down with the arrow keys? You know how to not stretch shorter examples over the full page-width? You know how to change text fonts in MS 4? (Probably you know all these things, but that is what I would use to get a better page layout. On my to-do-list is integrating Lilypond into TeX, ConTeXt to be more exact, but that is a longer undertaking from which I expect to get the best layout results.) And instead of making screenshots I would export a PDF, import it into Inkscape and export as an SVG having only the size of the example. Vector graphics quality vs. pixel graphics.

Just plonk it on over to PixelGoober

Sounds like forking over for the extra functionality of Finale is a little easier.

[charlieparker]

I assume the same thing of our jazz greats, Wes, Grant etc. The way they play notes is often as interesting as the notes they choose.

I don’t make the assumption that what my guitar teacher told me to do in CG lessons as a teenager means that there’s nothing to learn from the way those guys played. And yet I’ve heard people talk about Pat Metheny’s ‘bad technique’ because he moves his fingers too much and sticks his thumb over the neck. And so on.

I find this mind boggling. Would Wes have sounded better if he’d played with his thumb behind, fretting with his finger tips? No idea, but he certainly wouldn’t have sounded like Wes.

Interesting post. Classical guitar technique has been codified and documented in many books. How would one even go about learning Wes' left hand technique? Maybe nowadays there are videos and resources one can turn to, but before YouTube it was probably pretty hard to find videos, teachers, or material related to that style.

It's interesting how common that technique is among black guitarists. Is it taught in that community?

As to how much it actually matters, I'm not sure.

[Christian Miller]

Interesting post. Classical guitar technique has been codified and documented in many books. How would one even go about learning Wes' left hand technique? Maybe nowadays there are videos and resources one can turn to, but before YouTube it was probably pretty hard to find videos, teachers, or material related to that style.

It's interesting how common that technique is among black guitarists. Is it taught in that community?

As to how much it actually matters, I'm not sure.

I don’t think it was taught. More it’s a convergent evolution between players. It’s a natural way to play, but for schooled players it would feel unnatural of course - there are many things that may need to be unlearned. A lot of people don’t want to do that, and I understand.

Most younger players use a more classical left hand.

One player who consciously moved towards this technique is Miles Okazaki.

I think it makes a massive difference in terms of sound and phrasing. Not better, just different.

God is in the details. If you are interested in the nuances of specific peoples music, yes I think it does matter. If you just want to operate the guitar well with a technique that works pretty good for everything, stay with ‘legit’ technique.


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[charlieparker]

I don’t think it was taught. More it’s a convergent evolution between players. It’s a natural way to play, but for schooled players it would feel unnatural of course - there are many things that may need to be unlearned. A lot of people don’t want to do that, and I understand.

Most younger players use a more classical left hand.

One player who consciously moved towards this technique is Miles Okazaki.

I think it makes a massive difference in terms of sound and phrasing. Not better, just different.

God is in the details. If you are interested in the nuances of specific peoples music, yes I think it does matter. If you just want to operate the guitar well with a technique that works pretty good for everything, stay with ‘legit’ technique.


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My point was that there aren't a lot of resources for this alternative technique. Maybe less true these days with guys teaching Benson's style. So your average kid is going to end up learning what most books teach. As for how natural that style, it's hard for me to gauge. Do unschooled rock guys use it?

I am also skeptical that it wasn't taught at all in the African American community given how prevalent that style is. And by taught, I mean more in the gypsy sense by word of mouth and imitation.

[Christian Miller]

My point was that there aren't a lot of resources for this alternative technique.

No there isn’t. I saw the Wes arpeggio on a website years ago. I think that’s a bit of verbal lore …

Maybe less true these days with guys teaching Benson's style. So your average kid is going to end up learning what most books teach. As for how natural that style, it's hard for me to gauge. Do unschooled rock guys use it?

Yes, absolutely.

As far as thumb overs ‘naturalness’ - the kids I teach tend to play that way until I nag them not to lol. It takes specific instruction to get them to do it the classical way.

From what I know and my instinct (without doing a PhD) I don’t suspect pedagogy had much to do with it historically. Not all learning or even all teaching is pedagogy, however.

I feel people who are used to being taught in a formal way don’t always realise how readily info can absorbed in other ways. Watching the way players play for example and emulating them is an old way of doing things in jazz. Barry Harris recalled watching the hands of pianists in clubs to learn their voicings, and so on.

I think there would certainly have been informal teaching, put your hand like that, try this shape etc… information gleaned from apprenticing, hanging out, mentorship etc. (One thing a lot of traditional learning environments have apparently is a relative lack of verbal instruction.) But worked out classical style systems of teaching with things like technical studies, method books? well I don’t think that exists in print, let me put it that way. I don’t know that it’s possible to rule it out.

AFAIK most of the formal music education available at the time was based in European classical, including within the African American community (cf Cass technical school for example, but many other examples going back further.) Kenny Burrell and Jim Hall studied classical guitar, and their playing technique reflects that. I would expect jazz guitar teachers of the time would have modelled their left hand pedagogy after classical, looking at the books etc. it was the hallmark of a schooled guitarist!

But I might be wrong! I just don’t really know.

For me, I watch players hands and go with what seems to flow on the fretboard. I transcribe and try to reconstruct that way the player played the notes. If it feels good, it is good by and large.

I am also skeptical that it wasn't taught at all in the African American community given how prevalent that style is. And by taught, I mean more in the gypsy sense by word of mouth and imitation.

I honestly don’t know. If you want to know more detail on this I would suggest hitting up Dennis Chang. He knows a LOT of stuff about this type of thing.

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[Bop Head]

No there isn’t. I saw the Wes arpeggio on a website years ago. I think that’s a bit of verbal lore …



Yes, absolutely.

As far as thumb overs ‘naturalness’ - the kids I teach tend to play that way until I nag them not to lol. It takes specific instruction to get them to do it the classical way.

From what I know and my instinct (without doing a PhD) I don’t suspect pedagogy had much to do with it historically. Not all learning or even all teaching is pedagogy, however.

I feel people who are used to being taught in a formal way don’t always realise how readily info can absorbed in other ways. Watching the way players play for example and emulating them is an old way of doing things in jazz. Barry Harris recalled watching the hands of pianists in clubs to learn their voicings, and so on.

I think there would certainly have been informal teaching, put your hand like that, try this shape etc… information gleaned from apprenticing, hanging out, mentorship etc. (One thing a lot of traditional learning environments have apparently is a relative lack of verbal instruction.) But worked out classical style systems of teaching with things like technical studies, method books? well I don’t think that exists in print, let me put it that way. I don’t know that it’s possible to rule it out.

AFAIK most of the formal music education available at the time was based in European classical, including within the African American community (cf Cass technical school for example, but many other examples going back further.) Kenny Burrell and Jim Hall studied classical guitar, and their playing technique reflects that. I would expect jazz guitar teachers of the time would have modelled their left hand pedagogy after classical, looking at the books etc. it was the hallmark of a schooled guitarist!

But I might be wrong! I just don’t really know.

For me, I watch players hands and go with what seems to flow on the fretboard. I transcribe and try to reconstruct that way the player played the notes. If it feels good, it is good by and large.



I honestly don’t know. If you want to know more detail on this I would suggest hitting up Dennis Chang. He knows a LOT of stuff about this type of thing.

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I just did a Google image search for Kenny Burrell and apart from one relatively early photo where he is actually playing a classical guitar most of the time it does not look very classical. Thumb up high and three fingers on the fretboard. Despite having studied with a guy named Joe Fava who is pictured here.

[pamosmusic]

So this buddy of mine who teaches the trumpet students at the afterschool program where I work was super amped because he decided to take some lessons with a new trumpet professor at one of the area universities.

He sends me all the stuff he got to work on for his first lesson, along with this comment:

He said once the articulation falls into place and feels more second nature, we'd explore the cool harmonic stuff and some of the time displacement Woody Shaw does

and I love it. And immediately thought how foreign that sounds to the way guitar players prioritize what they learn in jazz.

[pamosmusic]

More on accent patterns …

[pamosmusic]

Alright. It’s been a long summer without a lot of time for stuff like this, but here’s a new one. A different sort of “turn” for you to check out.

(I use the blanket term “turn” describe a lot of these things, but maybe “ornament” is the better term. Anyway.)

[AllanAllen]

Seems like a real fancy enclosure to me. Is it different in some way?

I like it, one of those tricks that just sounds like jazz when you use it.

[pamosmusic]

Seems like a real fancy enclosure to me. Is it different in some way?

I like it, one of those tricks that just sounds like jazz when you use it.

Yeah it's a real fancy enclosure. Honestly just that it's faster––intended to ornament a single note rather than compose a melody toward a target note.

But yeah it's insta-jazz. They're pretty fun. Here are the rest that I've collected so far. I've pulled these mostly from Clifford's solos on September Song, Stompin' at the Savoy, and Delilah. Full disclosure I've only put in work on the one in the B (which is the one in the video) and C. I sort of put A-C in kind of a similar category. Not sure you need all of those in the arsenal. Then D-E also have a similar vibe, obviously. Having one from each of those groups probably covers. Not sure –– these are still a work in progress.

[gvurrdon]

A simple idea like chromatic encircling of, say, the 3,5,7 and 9 chord tones is straight forward for the piano player, once they know their scales. The can "see" it easily - if they close their eyes they can easily imagine playing around these chord tones. This is true, I think, for many other instruments (not sure about trumpet!).

However, for our instrument, it's a lot harder, for reasons we all know.

I hope you don't mind me asking, but what is it that makes this harder on guitar?
The reason I ask is that I've found the layout of a guitar neck (bass guitar in particular) very helpful for seeing scales and chord tones. Essentially, I have the image of a bass guitar neck in my mind's eye and can see intervals (and therefore scales and chord tones) laid out on it in a way I never could on a piano keyboard. This works for double bass also as I can see/feel where the frets would be (hitting them accurately is another matter...). This mental image also helps as a representation of the cycle of 4ths/5ths for transposition.
Though there's a bit of an issue with the major third between the 2nd and 3rd strings this visualisation has carried over to some extent to my recent guitar playing attempts.
Re. the trumpet, I have tried to learn that but found it pretty much impossible. It's very hard to find the notes or even to know which note one's currently playing, plus it feels very uncomfortable indeed to play. I am in awe of the abilities of trumpeters! Trombone is a little easier because of the slide and the larger bore but it's still very difficult to find the notes or produce a good tone.
To me, guitars and basses feel like "easy" instruments because of how one might visualise the layout of the fretboard (or fingerboard). Of course, it is highly likely that I have missed something...

[Mick-7]

I hope you don't mind me asking, but what is it that makes this harder on guitar?

I think this short video sums it up well:

It's not a matter of where the notes are on the fret-board but the fact that how you play them (pick and phrase them) must change from one position or string set to the next - but he could have omitted the qualifier, "a little."

[AllanAllen]

Jeeze guys, it's not that hard, pick a position and work on it. Learn one thing at a time and then move on. You can't learn it all at the same time.

[pamosmusic]

I hope you don't mind me asking, but what is it that makes this harder on guitar?
The reason I ask is that I've found the layout of a guitar neck (bass guitar in particular) very helpful for seeing scales and chord tones. Essentially, I have the image of a bass guitar neck in my mind's eye and can see intervals (and therefore scales and chord tones) laid out on it in a way I never could on a piano keyboard. This works for double bass also as I can see/feel where the frets would be (hitting them accurately is another matter...). This mental image also helps as a representation of the cycle of 4ths/5ths for transposition.
Though there's a bit of an issue with the major third between the 2nd and 3rd strings this visualisation has carried over to some extent to my recent guitar playing attempts.
Re. the trumpet, I have tried to learn that but found it pretty much impossible. It's very hard to find the notes or even to know which note one's currently playing, plus it feels very uncomfortable indeed to play. I am in awe of the abilities of trumpeters! Trombone is a little easier because of the slide and the larger bore but it's still very difficult to find the notes or produce a good tone.
To me, guitars and basses feel like "easy" instruments because of how one might visualise the layout of the fretboard (or fingerboard). Of course, it is highly likely that I have missed something...

It’s not the finding of chord tones but the chromatic encircling that tends to be tough on guitar. You either find yourself jumping around a lot or there are really tricky sequences with chromatic pitches spread onto separate strings four frets apart.

Depending on where they fall, chromatic notes tend to be easier on brass instruments because of the way the positions work — first being Bb, second being A, third being Ab etc — and also can be easier on piano because of the fingerings and the ease of motion between registers.

[pamosmusic]

Jeeze guys, it's not that hard, pick a position and work on it. Learn one thing at a time and then move on. You can't learn it all at the same time.

I mean … what if the thing you want to learn is chromaticism? It’s a thing in the vocabulary, and chromatic notes are tough regardless of what position you’re in. They’re just tricky on guitar.