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Originally Posted by GuyBoden
Also you can just about see his thumb in the - ahem - thumbnail - it’s quite a bit back, almost heading up towards George’s position. Certainly not opposite his second finger.
(A lot of Allan’s left hand forms are using the three fingers to span four or more frets with the pinky extended further. I expect his thumb was quite mobile.)
But it’s different from Adam Rogers for instance who is absolutely square on.
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05-26-2024 11:53 AM
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I think people are confusing two related, but not identical, things:
- using primarily three fingers vs all four fingers for single line playing (not aware of anyone who doesn't use all four fingers for chords, except Django for obvious reasons)
- a pronated finger angle vs. a more traditional classical guitar angle where the fingers are perpendicular to the frets
You can play with all four fingers with both a pronated angle and CG guitar angle. Plenty of players who do both. Holdsworth's finger angle is more pronated -- I actually think it's REALLY tough to get the stretches he did without pronating, as it puts your third finger in a position that makes it very hard to separate from your second finger.
You could play with three fingers with a CG approach, although most don't. But you could!
I would actually encourage all jazz guitarists to try playing through some Wes solos with his exact fingerings. You don't have to play like that 100% of the time, but once you get used to them, there's a certain ease to them as they sit perfectly on the guitar. Watch any video of Wes playing, and it all looks effortless -- that's because he's never fighting the instrument.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Cello players have thumb behind, and they use 4 fingers.
Seems guitar sits right between the two in scale length and fingerboard orientation, until you put the guitar on your right thigh. Then it's something completely different.
I started violin at 8 or 9 and switched to cello after a year. Got interested in guitar 4 or 5 years after that. So my pinky was pretty well developed by then.
I started guitar with a dread on right thigh and have no idea what I was doing with my left hand. But then I was required to stand with an SG on a strap. Like others here, I wanted the guitar to be in the same place when I sat so I ended up semi-classical. Always strapped, 4 fingers, thumb behind and straight wrist came out of that. Felt totally natural after cello.
How I sit came from cello too I guess: on the edge of a chair with guitar between my knees and straight back-bone.
I'd like to add that I came up with my thing by doing what came naturally to me. So... it's not really a nerdlinger conservatory type thing, even tho it kinda looks that way :-)
Obviously, great guitar playing can be done with all kinds of different postures and techniques. I learned a lot from listening to the great 2 and 3 fingered players. Back then there weren't any vids to show what these guys were doing. Maybe this is more about how to teach, or get a head start on the learning? If you want to play like Wes might as well do like Wes makes sense.
On a different note: the 'turns' you guys are talking about are the twiddles in something like Joy Spring? Never heard the term before.
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If anybody wants to see some extreme pronation and 3 fingered stretches they could google up Sonny Greenwich. I can't remember which vid showed it, but I was kinda shocked!
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Originally Posted by dasein
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
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Originally Posted by pauln
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I find it very tempting to try to beat the guitar down into submission. However its usually the guitar that comes out on top most of the time unfortunatedly. Its just one of those instruments that can really put up a fight
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Originally Posted by dasein
You can play with all four fingers with both a pronated angle and CG guitar angle. Plenty of players who do both. Holdsworth's finger angle is more pronated -- I actually think it's REALLY tough to get the stretches he did without pronating, as it puts your third finger in a position that makes it very hard to separate from your second finger.
Otoh his thumb is not fully over as it is in Pete’s, Kurt, Pat or Wes’s left hand forms
You could play with three fingers with a CG approach, although most don't. But you could!
I would actually encourage all jazz guitarists to try playing through some Wes solos with his exact fingerings. You don't have to play like that 100% of the time, but once you get used to them, there's a certain ease to them as they sit perfectly on the guitar. Watch any video of Wes playing, and it all looks effortless -- that's because he's never fighting the instrument.
Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkLast edited by Christian Miller; 05-27-2024 at 06:36 AM.
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Originally Posted by ccroft
Going on what people have said I might myself avoid the term ‘violin technique.’ I need another snappy term that doesn’t just result in people talking about using their pinkies (everyone uses their pinkies a bit, even Django. The distinction is how much and how.)
Obviously violins have a vastly shorter scale length than either cellos or guitars. I believe cello is different to violin. It is also a bit different from guitar technique, although that didn’t stop me from learning some stuff from the missus who plays cello.
I'd like to add that I came up with my thing by doing what came naturally to me. So... it's not really a nerdlinger conservatory type thing, even tho it kinda looks that way :-)
Obviously, great guitar playing can be done with all kinds of different postures and techniques. I learned a lot from listening to the great 2 and 3 fingered players. Back then there weren't any vids to show what these guys were doing. Maybe this is more about how to teach, or get a head start on the learning? If you want to play like Wes might as well do like Wes makes sense.
As I say I doubt the three fingered thing will stick, too much water under the bridge, but I REALLY like the way I sound in that little intro solo on my video where I consciously used only three fingers. As Miles Okazaki puts it:
“In certain circles of guitar playing, tucking away the fourth finger and putting the thumb over the top of the neck is considered improper technique. I would side with the contrary view, that this is an absolutely natural way to approach the guitar when the goal is strong articulation, groove, and rhythm. Using primarily three fingers does not at all limit speed or harmonic options — look at all the stuff drummers can play with two sticks! And the third finger easily spans four frets when the hand is angled towards the guitar’s body. This approach is clear in the video footage that we do have of Wes Montgomery and George Benson, who modeled their styles after Christian.”
For me it’s as Miles says - the articulation, groove and rhythm side of it that goes a notch up when I play with a thumb-over technique. Watching videos of my playing the hand looks so much better in that video than normal, too. I usually hate watching my left hand lol.
CG otoh gives me access to things impossible with a thumb over approach. You can also certainly swing with a CG position - but there’s something lost in terms of what I call grease. There is a trade off and a compromise.
That’s up to the player, anyway. But they should know the lay of the land on this. Once we get past the ‘seven year old playing twinkle twinkle’ stage of the guitar.
The thing I’m objecting to is a high handed tacit assumption that in some way Wes etc didn’t know what they were doing. This is partly for historical reasons no doubt. We now have a more curious and inclusive idea of guitar technique I hope.
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Originally Posted by jazznylon
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Originally Posted by pauln
I've done much more thumb playing in recent years, as I have a picking setup that can pretty seamlessly switch between pick and thumb. Love the articulation it gives, the warmth with just a hint of a percussive attack.
BUT, in my case, it's strictly for mid-tempos and slower. I have a pretty decent number of Wes solos that I've transcribed, and I can play most of them with a thumb, but definitely not all of them. Certain lines he played, I have no idea how he could do it so fast and clean with just his thumb. And that version of "Caravan"? Forget it. He really was one of a kind.
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Originally Posted by Christian Miller
Love Okazaki BTW. Him and Kleinhaut are good examples of great playing with completely different technique.
In the end, who cares how you get there. Whatever gets you there is the right way. And what's wrong with changing it up? Lots of us use a pick for one thing and put it down for others. Guitar's weird like that.
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These turns, is that where those twiddles in Song For My Father come from? After the C in the head.
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
Theyre all over. Billie’s Bounce, Now’s the Time. Anything written by a trumpet — Ceora, Joy Spring, for example. That cliche ending like in Sandu, or the Theme
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Originally Posted by Bop Head
Yeah I’ve been super interested in Arban’s for a while. I borrowed a copy from a friend and adapted a bunch of exercises. A lot of this I’m kind of thinking in those terms.
Eventually I’ll compile it and call it Guitarban’s Incomplete Conservatory Method and sell it to a prestigious publisher
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Which is to say:
You have no idea how “on topic” you are.
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So I’m going to do a little follow up on the turns next, maybe two. Then what would be of interest?
The things I’ve made some material on:
Other turns
Grace notes
Arpeggios
Accent patterns
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Twiddles m8
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Originally Posted by pamosmusic
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Combining turns and arpeggios. But just do the ones I'm bad at, m7b5 and Augmented.
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Another thought, the turns sheet you did was a downward exercise. Is the next one going to be upwards?
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Originally Posted by AllanAllen
First example, just play the pattern back up the scale. It’s written descending but you can just ascend. In the video, I think I played it both ways.
Or if you meant can the actual pattern be reversed, I suppose it could. Like starting on C, triplet to B and back, and then up to D.
I don’t see why not, but I’ve never seen them that way.
With number two, could you reverse the direction of the run—like a turn from C, up to D, turn from E, etc? Again, you could but if you try and play it, it sounds pretty awkward.
That idea came from an Oscar Peterson lick a student transcribed off of Night and Day. I’ve been working on Clifford’s solo from Delilah and he’s got a similar thing there. A couple spots in his Stompin at the Savoy too.
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I tried going upwards and it also sounded awkward to me also. That's why I was asking if you had a different way. I was trying out scalar warmups like 3rds up the scale, turns down the scale. Thought it would be nice if there was a Peter's Bebop (...Pebop?) way to go up the scale.
Experimental/free etc music
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