Bebop Technique

[Christian Miller]

Well if four fingers was good enough for Allan Holdsworth, it's good enough for my meagre talent.

Watch this video of Allan Holdsworth trying to do an advertisement for his signature guitar, it's very funny and shows closeup his incredible four finger fretting technique.
"RIP AH, you will never be forgotten."

He starts really playing at 3:38mins

I find it interesting that Allan’s hand was quite pronated. If you look he almost had to reach around his third finger with the little finger. Which is not to say that there aren’t classical guitarists with quite a pronated left hand form - see above.

Also you can just about see his thumb in the - ahem - thumbnail - it’s quite a bit back, almost heading up towards George’s position. Certainly not opposite his second finger.

(A lot of Allan’s left hand forms are using the three fingers to span four or more frets with the pinky extended further. I expect his thumb was quite mobile.)

But it’s different from Adam Rogers for instance who is absolutely square on.


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[dasein]

I think people are confusing two related, but not identical, things:

- using primarily three fingers vs all four fingers for single line playing (not aware of anyone who doesn't use all four fingers for chords, except Django for obvious reasons)

- a pronated finger angle vs. a more traditional classical guitar angle where the fingers are perpendicular to the frets

You can play with all four fingers with both a pronated angle and CG guitar angle. Plenty of players who do both. Holdsworth's finger angle is more pronated -- I actually think it's REALLY tough to get the stretches he did without pronating, as it puts your third finger in a position that makes it very hard to separate from your second finger.

You could play with three fingers with a CG approach, although most don't. But you could!

I would actually encourage all jazz guitarists to try playing through some Wes solos with his exact fingerings. You don't have to play like that 100% of the time, but once you get used to them, there's a certain ease to them as they sit perfectly on the guitar. Watch any video of Wes playing, and it all looks effortless -- that's because he's never fighting the instrument.

[ccroft]

...I like Denis Chang’s term - violin technique - for ‘three fingers.’ I learned that from a girlfriend years ago who played violin. So we can divide polyphonic technique (CG) from violin technique...

Is that correct? Violinists use the pinky constantly. Interestingly, they don't have the thumb behind the neck. Is that what Mr Chang is talking about?

Cello players have thumb behind, and they use 4 fingers.

Seems guitar sits right between the two in scale length and fingerboard orientation, until you put the guitar on your right thigh. Then it's something completely different.

I started violin at 8 or 9 and switched to cello after a year. Got interested in guitar 4 or 5 years after that. So my pinky was pretty well developed by then.

I started guitar with a dread on right thigh and have no idea what I was doing with my left hand. But then I was required to stand with an SG on a strap. Like others here, I wanted the guitar to be in the same place when I sat so I ended up semi-classical. Always strapped, 4 fingers, thumb behind and straight wrist came out of that. Felt totally natural after cello.

How I sit came from cello too I guess: on the edge of a chair with guitar between my knees and straight back-bone.

I'd like to add that I came up with my thing by doing what came naturally to me. So... it's not really a nerdlinger conservatory type thing, even tho it kinda looks that way :-)

Obviously, great guitar playing can be done with all kinds of different postures and techniques. I learned a lot from listening to the great 2 and 3 fingered players. Back then there weren't any vids to show what these guys were doing. Maybe this is more about how to teach, or get a head start on the learning? If you want to play like Wes might as well do like Wes makes sense.

On a different note: the 'turns' you guys are talking about are the twiddles in something like Joy Spring? Never heard the term before.

[ccroft]

If anybody wants to see some extreme pronation and 3 fingered stretches they could google up Sonny Greenwich. I can't remember which vid showed it, but I was kinda shocked!

[pauln]

...a certain ease to them as they sit perfectly on the guitar. Watch any video of Wes playing, and it all looks effortless -- that's because he's never fighting the instrument.

I observe the same thing, but Wes may not be the right example for encouraging three fingered technique with using a pick. He is an excellent example of planning ahead... I get the sense that Wes' fingerings were very carefully done in such a way as to naturally end a phrase in pre-position to begin the next one. The constraint of using the thumb for mostly down strokes meant that of all the various fingering path solutions, one would prove to be most playable (which is true of all guitarists whether pick or thumb, but the "looks effortless...never fighting the instrument" fingering paths are fewer. Ordinary guitarists using a pick may not exclude some of the "difficult fight with the instrument" looking fingering paths because of some reserve capacity or freedom using a pick). To me, Wes seemed to have developed a meta-technique with regard to physically staging present fingering for subsequent fingering, which sounded fantastic not so much because it was three fingered, but rather because he planned well ahead, needing optimized fingering to account for using his thumb.

[pauln]

I mean… this is heavy metal guitar… right?
What am I missing?

It's called "heavy mental guitar"

[AllanAllen]

It's called "heavy mental guitar"

I decided to delete the comment. It came off as smart ass instead of inquisitive.

[jazznylon]

I find it very tempting to try to beat the guitar down into submission. However its usually the guitar that comes out on top most of the time unfortunatedly. Its just one of those instruments that can really put up a fight

[Christian Miller]

I think people are confusing two related, but not identical, things:

- using primarily three fingers vs all four fingers for single line playing (not aware of anyone who doesn't use all four fingers for chords, except Django for obvious reasons)

- a pronated finger angle vs. a more traditional classical guitar angle where the fingers are perpendicular to the frets

I would generally agree, I’m not sure the distinctions are that black and white and also the two things while distinct are also connected.

You can play with all four fingers with both a pronated angle and CG guitar angle. Plenty of players who do both. Holdsworth's finger angle is more pronated -- I actually think it's REALLY tough to get the stretches he did without pronating, as it puts your third finger in a position that makes it very hard to separate from your second finger.

Having worked a bit with some Allan material recently, I would say that for me, it varies. Some of the stuff seems to demand I put my hand in a more squared off position, others need me to pronate more. I think in that clip Guy posted you can see him use some different positions for the thumb. But the basic position does seem to be quite pronated.

Otoh his thumb is not fully over as it is in Pete’s, Kurt, Pat or Wes’s left hand forms

You could play with three fingers with a CG approach, although most don't. But you could!

I think Peter said something about Segovia fingering a prioritising three fingers?

I would actually encourage all jazz guitarists to try playing through some Wes solos with his exact fingerings. You don't have to play like that 100% of the time, but once you get used to them, there's a certain ease to them as they sit perfectly on the guitar. Watch any video of Wes playing, and it all looks effortless -- that's because he's never fighting the instrument.

Yes, definitely - and that’s a very good way of putting it.


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[Christian Miller]

Is that correct? Violinists use the pinky constantly. Interestingly, they don't have the thumb behind the neck. Is that what Mr Chang is talking about?

To be honest I’m getting this second hand and don’t have time to sift through Chang’s 40m+ videos - good though they are - to find the source. Otoh my conversation regarding this was decades (!) ago.

Going on what people have said I might myself avoid the term ‘violin technique.’ I need another snappy term that doesn’t just result in people talking about using their pinkies (everyone uses their pinkies a bit, even Django. The distinction is how much and how.)

Obviously violins have a vastly shorter scale length than either cellos or guitars. I believe cello is different to violin. It is also a bit different from guitar technique, although that didn’t stop me from learning some stuff from the missus who plays cello.

I'd like to add that I came up with my thing by doing what came naturally to me. So... it's not really a nerdlinger conservatory type thing, even tho it kinda looks that way :-)

Obviously, great guitar playing can be done with all kinds of different postures and techniques. I learned a lot from listening to the great 2 and 3 fingered players. Back then there weren't any vids to show what these guys were doing. Maybe this is more about how to teach, or get a head start on the learning? If you want to play like Wes might as well do like Wes makes sense.

I was in the same boat. I feel now there’s more info and that’s great, it’s fun to change things up. Keeps the brain young.

As I say I doubt the three fingered thing will stick, too much water under the bridge, but I REALLY like the way I sound in that little intro solo on my video where I consciously used only three fingers. As Miles Okazaki puts it:
“In certain circles of guitar playing, tucking away the fourth finger and putting the thumb over the top of the neck is considered improper technique. I would side with the contrary view, that this is an absolutely natural way to approach the guitar when the goal is strong articulation, groove, and rhythm. Using primarily three fingers does not at all limit speed or harmonic options — look at all the stuff drummers can play with two sticks! And the third finger easily spans four frets when the hand is angled towards the guitar’s body. This approach is clear in the video footage that we do have of Wes Montgomery and George Benson, who modeled their styles after Christian.”

For me it’s as Miles says - the articulation, groove and rhythm side of it that goes a notch up when I play with a thumb-over technique. Watching videos of my playing the hand looks so much better in that video than normal, too. I usually hate watching my left hand lol.

CG otoh gives me access to things impossible with a thumb over approach. You can also certainly swing with a CG position - but there’s something lost in terms of what I call grease. There is a trade off and a compromise.

That’s up to the player, anyway. But they should know the lay of the land on this. Once we get past the ‘seven year old playing twinkle twinkle’ stage of the guitar.

The thing I’m objecting to is a high handed tacit assumption that in some way Wes etc didn’t know what they were doing. This is partly for historical reasons no doubt. We now have a more curious and inclusive idea of guitar technique I hope.


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[Christian Miller]

I find it very tempting to try to beat the guitar down into submission. However its usually the guitar that comes out on top most of the time unfortunatedly. Its just one of those instruments that can really put up a fight

Haha too true


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[dasein]

I observe the same thing, but Wes may not be the right example for encouraging three fingered technique with using a pick. He is an excellent example of planning ahead... I get the sense that Wes' fingerings were very carefully done in such a way as to naturally end a phrase in pre-position to begin the next one. The constraint of using the thumb for mostly down strokes meant that of all the various fingering path solutions, one would prove to be most playable (which is true of all guitarists whether pick or thumb, but the "looks effortless...never fighting the instrument" fingering paths are fewer. Ordinary guitarists using a pick may not exclude some of the "difficult fight with the instrument" looking fingering paths because of some reserve capacity or freedom using a pick). To me, Wes seemed to have developed a meta-technique with regard to physically staging present fingering for subsequent fingering, which sounded fantastic not so much because it was three fingered, but rather because he planned well ahead, needing optimized fingering to account for using his thumb.

I'm going to have to think about this more, it's a good observation. I think it's mostly true.

I've done much more thumb playing in recent years, as I have a picking setup that can pretty seamlessly switch between pick and thumb. Love the articulation it gives, the warmth with just a hint of a percussive attack.

BUT, in my case, it's strictly for mid-tempos and slower. I have a pretty decent number of Wes solos that I've transcribed, and I can play most of them with a thumb, but definitely not all of them. Certain lines he played, I have no idea how he could do it so fast and clean with just his thumb. And that version of "Caravan"? Forget it. He really was one of a kind.

[ccroft]

...The thing I’m objecting to is a high handed tacit assumption that in some way Wes etc didn’t know what they were doing. This is partly for historical reasons no doubt. We now have a more curious and inclusive idea of guitar technique I hope.

Couldn't agree more. Hope I haven't been high handed on this...

Love Okazaki BTW. Him and Kleinhaut are good examples of great playing with completely different technique.

In the end, who cares how you get there. Whatever gets you there is the right way. And what's wrong with changing it up? Lots of us use a pick for one thing and put it down for others. Guitar's weird like that.

[AllanAllen]

These turns, is that where those twiddles in Song For My Father come from? After the C in the head.

[pamosmusic]

These turns, is that where those twiddles in Song For My Father come from? After the C in the head.

Yessir.

Theyre all over. Billie’s Bounce, Now’s the Time. Anything written by a trumpet — Ceora, Joy Spring, for example. That cliche ending like in Sandu, or the Theme

[Bop Head]

Update on this stuff. I've been trying to get some videos together, working mostly with the turns because I have a lot of that put together in PDFs so far. I will post some as I've got them.

Thinking about reviving my currently-defunct Patreon page and putting some longer form versions of stuff up there for $1 or something just to keep myself working on it. We'll see.

I've got lots done with the turns and some pretty cool stuff I've lifted from a few Clifford Brown solos I've transcribed.

Got some stuff together with the accent patterns, though there isn't much to really write out with that.

I've also got one of my arpeggio studies done, based on a lick I lifted from Grant Green.

And then some things with grace notes––slides and hammer/pulls, again really leaning on Clifford for that stuff.

Goddam trumpet is so expressive.

A little off-topic from guitar technique: Clifford Brown is known to have studied the Arban method a lot which might explain some ornamentation stuff. (Haven't looked into it myself, might be some good material to study sight reading as well.)

[pamosmusic]

A little off-topic from guitar technique: Clifford Brown is known to have studied the Arban method a lot which might explain some ornamentation stuff. (Haven't looked into it myself, might be some good material to study sight reading as well.)

Oh baby you just opened a can.

Yeah I’ve been super interested in Arban’s for a while. I borrowed a copy from a friend and adapted a bunch of exercises. A lot of this I’m kind of thinking in those terms.

Eventually I’ll compile it and call it Guitarban’s Incomplete Conservatory Method and sell it to a prestigious publisher

[pamosmusic]

Which is to say:

You have no idea how “on topic” you are.

[pamosmusic]

So I’m going to do a little follow up on the turns next, maybe two. Then what would be of interest?

The things I’ve made some material on:

Other turns
Grace notes
Arpeggios
Accent patterns

[Christian Miller]

Twiddles m8


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[CliffR]

So I’m going to do a little follow up on the turns next, maybe two. Then what would be of interest?

The things I’ve made some material on:

Other turns
Grace notes
Arpeggios
Accent patterns

Accent patterns. Jack Z recently made a great post about groups of threes, and a not-so-well-known guy on YouTube Benny G did something similar - I can't get enough of this stuff.

[AllanAllen]

Combining turns and arpeggios. But just do the ones I'm bad at, m7b5 and Augmented.

[AllanAllen]

Another thought, the turns sheet you did was a downward exercise. Is the next one going to be upwards?

[pamosmusic]

Another thought, the turns sheet you did was a downward exercise. Is the next one going to be upwards?

Good point.

First example, just play the pattern back up the scale. It’s written descending but you can just ascend. In the video, I think I played it both ways.

Or if you meant can the actual pattern be reversed, I suppose it could. Like starting on C, triplet to B and back, and then up to D.

I don’t see why not, but I’ve never seen them that way.

With number two, could you reverse the direction of the run—like a turn from C, up to D, turn from E, etc? Again, you could but if you try and play it, it sounds pretty awkward.

That idea came from an Oscar Peterson lick a student transcribed off of Night and Day. I’ve been working on Clifford’s solo from Delilah and he’s got a similar thing there. A couple spots in his Stompin at the Savoy too.

[AllanAllen]

I tried going upwards and it also sounded awkward to me also. That's why I was asking if you had a different way. I was trying out scalar warmups like 3rds up the scale, turns down the scale. Thought it would be nice if there was a Peter's Bebop (...Pebop?) way to go up the scale.