Bebop Technique

[Christian Miller]

Christian, you spoke of cumbersome fingerings, and later played a clip of Adam Rogers playing. Is he not using the "cumbersome fingerings" you advised against?

P.S. - I'm not asking the question just to be contrary, I'm wondering whether his more classical technique overcame the drawbacks you mentioned?

Yeah, it works for him.

But also his left hand is perfect.


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[Christian Miller]

Soon? Are the second 5 years faster?

I should knight you with a telecaster!


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[pamosmusic]

Yeah, it works for him.

But also his left hand is perfect.

Pinkies for the win

[Mick-7]

Yeah, it works for him. But also his left hand is perfect.

By "perfect" do you mean control over all 4 fingers so he doesn't have to resort to the "crutch" of only using 3 fingers?

[pamosmusic]

By "perfect" do you mean control over all 4 fingers so he doesn't have to resort to the "crutch" of only using 3 fingers?

Duck!

[Christian Miller]

By "perfect" do you mean control over all 4 fingers so he doesn't have to resort to the "crutch" of only using 3 fingers?

The simplest way of replying to this is to say I also think Wes has perfect left hand

I like Denis Chang’s term - violin technique - for ‘three fingers.’ I learned that from a girlfriend years ago who played violin. So we can divide polyphonic technique (CG) from violin technique.

Both have their ups and downs. CG technique to be perfect requires a few things that Peter would be better qualified to comment on, but includes equality between all four fingers. Hard to achieve. Adam has it. So does Pasquale and Ben Monder.

I wonder if it isn’t something best developed in childhood?

Anyway… most of the video is not specific to violin technique but it works well with that approach.


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[Christian Miller]

It seems to me people don’t look at the left hand with the same mentality as the right. With picking we can say that there various picking approaches and stances of great pickers represent often quite diverse solutions to the same problems. Some might argue that one way or other is the best way, but I think most are open to different schools of picking existing and being equally valid.

Otoh with left hand people seem to more likely to argue that’s there’s a single correct approach. I find this odd when we have so many counter examples - maybe the majority of players historically!

It’s also a matter of personal physical characteristics. FWIW I do think CG style technique works better for those with small hands. But I’m not 100%. Conversely Django was obviously not going to be using CG left hand lol (to take an extreme case). But those aspects being equal it does seem to me that you can choose an approach.

Also it varies by instrument. My old ES175 with its funny skinny little neck does not like a ‘legit’ CG left hand but is very comfortable if I go thumb-over. My modern 335 has a much wider neck and is comfortable either way.

Something I found out the painful way is that you can’t pick and choose elements of classical technique. You have to accept the whole thing. Posture supports left hand positioning. You can give yourself carpal tunnel by using a folk guitar position and a very legit left hand. In teaching kids I have to compromise a bit.

Unless a player is in a particular school of jazz technique (Chuck Wayne, Rodney Jones etc) it seems to me the physical aspect of jazz guitar is often left up to the player…

[Christian Miller]

Pinkies for the win

My pinky is not a winner for sure. Have you seen that bad boy flap around like a dying fish?


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[GuyBoden]

My pinkie finger is equally as bad as the rest of my fingers for fretting.

I've accepted my limited ability for speed and really enjoy just playing slowly.

I had Classical Guitar lessons as a teenager, so my CG technique is thumb behind the neck.

I'm too old to change to using three fingers and see no reason too, it does seem faster using certain phrasing (Bebop), but slower at others.


George Orwell's fretting hand quote: "All fingers are equal, but some player's fingers seem a lot more equal than others."

[Christian Miller]

Maybe - but my experience is most students have limited appetite and patience for practicing anything consistently regardless of what it is.

Tbf it takes a lot of concentration. Some would say all true practice does.

I think kids are easier to talk into it and more open to trying new things. Adults are more likely to rationalise their way out of trying things - me as much as anyone haha.

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[GuyBoden]

Maybe - but my experience is most students have limited appetite and patience for practicing anything consistently regardless of what it is.

Tbf it takes a lot of concentration. Some would say all true practice does.

I think kids are easier to talk into it and more open to trying new things. Adults are more likely to rationalise their way out of trying things - me as much as anyone haha.

As an adult, if you've spent 20-60 years fretting notes with four fingers, I wouldn't advise anyone to change to using three fingers, IMHO.

[pamosmusic]

As an adult, if you've spent 20-60 years fretting notes with four fingers, I wouldn't advise anyone to change to using three fingers, IMHO.

Making mechanical changes is a bit like changing your posture when you walk. It’s hard to change something you’re not really supposed to be focusing on consciously all the time anyway.

I usually tell people to pick a small part of their practice time to focus on the change like a laser beam and then just not worry about it for the rest of the time.

Gradually it will start to show up. It’ll take longer to sink in, certainly, but you also won’t be utterly miserable while you work on it.

Works better with some things than with others too. Changing how you hold a pick? I think it’s more of a practical consideration to keep someone from giving up. Changing to playing with three fingers? I actually think this piecemeal approach would work really well because there’s no requirement that you always play with just three fingers — getting better at being mobile and flexible in that way would be an end in itself.

[pamosmusic]

The simplest way of replying to this is to say I also think Wes has perfect left hand
Hard to achieve. Adam has it. So does Pasquale and Ben Monder.

Preach.

I like Denis Chang’s term - violin technique - for ‘three fingers.’ I learned that from a girlfriend years ago who played violin. So we can divide polyphonic technique (CG) from violin technique.

Both have their ups and downs. CG technique to be perfect requires a few things that Peter would be better qualified to comment on, but includes equality between all four fingers.

Not sure I’m all that qualified, but funny you mention violin. I’ve got two buddies I routinely refer classical students to when I’m out of my depth (my weakness is rep, so gifted high schoolers getting ready for college are my wheelhouse, guys who are deep into the Bach are not). One of them came out once when I had a gig and he we were talking about nerd stuff and at one point he was like … “I was always tweaking my left hand and then finally got a teacher once who told me that it should just look like a violinist’s left hand and that’s when it finally clicked.”

He definitely wasn’t talking about using only three fingers—more about the angle of the fingers against the strings—but still.

[princeplanet]

Ah yes, the old "where does the thumb go" dilemma... When I did the Rock/Blues thing, like most, the thumb was always visible over the edge of the neck. Once I got serious about Jazz, the thumb (unconsciously) slipped down and often lived near the middle of the neck's thickness. This is how I learned CG, so there was a precedent, and hence a relatively easy adjustment.

Only very recently have I tried to play certain lines with the thumb up higher and it's amazing how different that feels! There's more strength and less fatigue, but at the expense of fretting and slurring accuracy (especially around the thicker strings). I've also started noticing how some players often switch thumb position even mid-line (Metheny?).

To the members - Where does your thumb hang out (or not)?

[lawson-stone]

I'm really finding this discussion in the last dozen posts or so very helpful. Some really fine players (you guys!) and very thoughtful as well, bringing a lot of knowledge, experience, and chops to the table. I never thought before about how we tend to be very accepting of lots of different right-hand technique (even Chicken-Pickin') but can get really testy about left-hand. I wonder if it's because we never think much about the right hand unless we get in a jam? I am a slow to moderate tempo player, so I can get away with erratic picking, up, down, whatever. But as tempo increases and the bebop lines get more testy, I get more worried about how I'm picking.
Left hand... I will hook the thumb to grab a note on the 6th string pretty often, but generally it sits just above the centerline of the neck.

[mr. beaumont]

My pinky is not a winner for sure. Have you seen that bad boy flap around like a dying fish?


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This Donna Lee thing is the most I've used my pinky in my life, I think.

[Mick-7]

The simplest way of replying to this is to say I also think Wes has perfect left hand

I like Denis Chang’s term - violin technique - for ‘three fingers.’ I learned that from a girlfriend years ago who played violin. So we can divide polyphonic technique (CG) from violin technique.

Both have their ups and downs. CG technique to be perfect requires a few things that Peter would be better qualified to comment on, but includes equality between all four fingers. Hard to achieve. Adam has it. So does Pasquale and Ben Monder.

I wonder if it isn’t something best developed in childhood?

Anyway… most of the video is not specific to violin technique but it works well with that approach.

I don't know Ben Monder's musical background, but Allan Holdsworth played violin before he played guitar.

"Unless a player is in a particular school of jazz technique (Chuck Wayne, Rodney Jones etc) it seems to me the physical aspect of jazz guitar is often left up to the player… "

Could you please explain what you mean by that statement? Are you referring to their phrasing? Chuck Wayne did a lot of sweep picking but he also played classical music, Joe Puma said he played Bach very well.

One time I was in New York City and heard that Chuck Wayne would be at a club, took a long taxi cab ride there only to find that he couldn't make it that night - what a let down!

[pamosmusic]

Could you please explain what you mean by that statement? Are you referring to their phrasing?

He meant that unless person works with a very specific and possibly niche technical method — classical pedagogy, benson picking, etc — then there is generally little to no guidance on how to hold the pick, orient the left hand, or really do much of anything on the guitar. You get “straight wrist, thumb behind the neck” and that’s about from most beginning methods.

Contrast that with beginning piano or violin pedagogy.

One time I was in New York City and heard that Chuck Wayne would be at a club, took a long taxi cab ride there only to find that he couldn't make it that night - what a let down!

1. Who played instead??? It was New York, so they were probably a killer anyway. Missed opportunity, my dude.

2. You learned a valuable lesson. Nothing is worth a long cab ride in New York City. Between the hours of 5:00am and 11:50pm, the train is faster and costs one twentieth the fare. Let this be a lesson to you all.

[Christian Miller]

I don't know Ben Monder's musical background, but Allan Holdsworth played violin before he played guitar.

"Unless a player is in a particular school of jazz technique (Chuck Wayne, Rodney Jones etc) it seems to me the physical aspect of jazz guitar is often left up to the player… "

Could you please explain what you mean by that statement? Are you referring to their phrasing? One time I was in New York City and heard that Chuck Wayne would be at a club, took a long taxi cab ride there only to find that he couldn't make it that night - what a let down!

Allan actually had quite a pronated left hand - not that this is necessarily untrue of Classical players as Peter indicated, but much more so than Adam. Violinistic, in fact.

Schools of jazz technique - Rodney jones teaches what is often called ‘benson technique’ for the right hand. Two of his students are Sheryl Bailey and Miles Okazaki. However while Sheryl has a very classical left hand, Miles quite consciously moved towards three fingered ‘violin technique’ and wrote a good article about it. I don’t know what Rodney recommends if anything for left hand, maybe others could help on this.

Players in the Chuck Wayne tradition - Pasquale, Ben Monder, Jack Wilkins have a very specific technique that they all use, a bit like economy picking. I think the left hand is very classical. This is a school that has a clear view on everything.

You also have things like the Berklee Modern Method (Leavitt)

But that aside, it seems that many uni level players are expected to have it sorted out. I think the amount of specific advice in terms of technique really depends on the teacher, but many are more music focussed. (Some have more of a compulsion to rebuild players techniques in a certain mould.)


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[Christian Miller]

Preach.



Not sure I’m all that qualified, but funny you mention violin. I’ve got two buddies I routinely refer classical students to when I’m out of my depth (my weakness is rep, so gifted high schoolers getting ready for college are my wheelhouse, guys who are deep into the Bach are not). One of them came out once when I had a gig and he we were talking about nerd stuff and at one point he was like … “I was always tweaking my left hand and then finally got a teacher once who told me that it should just look like a violinist’s left hand and that’s when it finally clicked.”

He definitely wasn’t talking about using only three fingers—more about the angle of the fingers against the strings—but still.

That reminds me of one of the more interesting response to my ‘three fingered’ video who cited this video:

Interesting video especially if you bought the book haha


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[Mick-7]

He meant that unless person works with a very specific and possibly niche technical method — classical pedagogy, benson picking, etc — then there is generally little to no guidance on how to hold the pick, orient the left hand, or really do much of anything on the guitar. You get “straight wrist, thumb behind the neck” and that’s about from most beginning methods.

Contrast that with beginning piano or violin pedagogy.

1. Who played instead??? It was New York, so they were probably a killer anyway. Missed opportunity, my dude.

It was funny, Wayne's bass player was playing guitar in his place with the drummer, he asked me if I wanted to sit in, I said no.

2. You learned a valuable lesson. Nothing is worth a long cab ride in New York City. Between the hours of 5:00am and 11:50pm, the train is faster and costs one twentieth the fare. Let this be a lesson to you all.

Thanks but those hours would not have worked, and besides I was with a date, good thing she tolerated my late night musical excursions. I found out later that Robin Ford was her cousin, which probably extended the relationship longer than it would have otherwise lasted.

[GuyBoden]

I don't know Ben Monder's musical background, but Allan Holdsworth played violin before he played guitar.

Sorry, I'll have to correct your statement, Allan Holdsworth played guitar long before learning the violin.

Allan Holdsworth started learning Violin in Manchester in the 1960's, when he was playing in the area in a covers band or cabaret band as they were known then.

Quote from Allan Holdsworth interview: "I played the violin for a couple years too, but I missed playing chords. So I went back to the guitar"
In Memoriam: DownBeat’s Final Interview with Allan Holdsworth

[Christian Miller]

Sorry, I'll have to correct your statement, Allan Holdsworth played guitar long before learning the violin.

Allan Holdsworth started learning Violin in Manchester in the 1960's, when he was playing in the area in a covers band or cabaret band as they were known then.

Quote from Allan Holdsworth interview: "I played the violin for a couple years too, but I missed playing chords. So I went back to the guitar"
In Memoriam: DownBeat’s Final Interview with Allan Holdsworth

That’s nuts. That’s not how violin works! You don’t just dabble in it for a couple of years lol. Unless you are Allan apparently.

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[Mick-7]

That’s nuts. That’s not how violin works! You don’t just dabble in it for a couple of years lol. Unless you are Allan apparently.

In other interviews he said that the guitar was not his preferred instrument (nor was the piano), he listened to saxophonists and violinists rather than to guitarists, so I presumed he had played other instruments first. He wanted to make the guitar sound like a different instrument but apparently didn't have a means to do that at first so he tried other stringed instruments - violin, Chapman stick, etc. But then newer sorts of guitars and electronic effects became available that allowed him to realize his goal.

[BreckerFan]

Something I found out the painful way is that you can’t pick and choose elements of classical technique. You have to accept the whole thing. Posture supports left hand positioning. You can give yourself carpal tunnel by using a folk guitar position and a very legit left hand. In teaching kids I have to compromise a bit.

Late to the thread but wanna second this bigtime. Ive always used four finger CG left hand technique since I started when I was 13. I never took lessons and I was trying to play power chords along with punk songs and I think it was the only way I could play a full 3 note power chord. Fast forward a couple years and I had discovered Joe Satriani and was obsessed with all his legato (or whatever you wanna call it) stuff. I would spend hours a day practicing it in folk guitar position and with a super bent left wrist. And lo and behold, my wrist started popping and my hand started tingling, to the point where I couldn't play guitar anymore. I went to the doctor to see what could be done and he suggested I stop playing guitar, to which I responded by laughing at him, only to realize he wasn't joking. But when it became apparent to him that that wasn't an option for me (I was already hooked and practicing 3 hours nearly every day), he sent me to physical therapy. So I spent a summer at 16 going to a sports therapist to get my guitar induced cubital tunnel syndrome treated (same as carpal, but the nerve to the pinky).

Since then I've changed to playing in classical position and to keeping my left wrist straight. Every once in a while I'll practice something that will cause a flare up, but for the most part it's not an issue anymore.

Reflecting on that makes me appreciate how valuable a teacher can be. I've always been a bit stubborn and indepent so I may have done it anyway, but it would've been nice to have someone show me the right way.