Playing in all keys.

[pamosmusic]

You went too big on the triad pairs and upper structure thing and lost me. I was thinking of replacing a Fmaj7 with A minor or C major. Just one step at a time. I know I can expand this stuff infinitely, but I can't absorb it all at once.

It’s just terminology confusion. Triad pairs is a specific thing.

Youre thinking of a super useful tool and the term is upper structure.

That’s when you take that Fmaj7 that has F A C and E … you take A C and E. The C major works because it’s C E and G and gives you the nine.

So yeah … the thing with the seventh chords is the same concept. There are fewer common options with the seventh chords though. Which is kind of nice actually.

[pamosmusic]

It’s lots of stuff but that’s why I emphasize picking one.

3-9 is a good one. The seventh chord built of the third of each giving you 3-5-7-9

Major … minor 7 off the third
Minor … major 7 off the third
dominant … half diminished or diminished off the third
M7b5 … minor 7 off the third.

(as an aside lots of these are also synonyms for some of those Barry Harris things people like)

[AllanAllen]

It’s lots of stuff but that’s why I emphasize picking one.

3-9 is a good one. The seventh chord built of the third of each giving you 3-5-7-9

Major … minor 7 off the third
Minor … major 7 off the third
dominant … half diminished or diminished off the third
M7b5 … minor 7 off the third.

(as an aside lots of these are also synonyms for some of those Barry Harris things people like)

Okay I think I'm getting it now. I'll toss it around this weekend

[pamosmusic]

Okay I think I'm getting it now. I'll toss it around this weekend

try getting through sections of a song playing just the upper structure. Or beat one from the root, upper structure on beat three.

Try doing the side slipping too. It takes good time and some confidence to pull off buts worth it.

[pawlowski6132]

I used to run the major scale in 5 positions through all 12 keys in different patterns. I got tired of it and moved onto heads thinking I would run those around the circle of 4ths, but it’s fallen off my routine.


How many of us here go through something in 12 keys every day? And what’s your system?

Sounds like a complete waste of time.

[AllanAllen]

Sounds like a complete waste of time.

Well, it wasn't. It was easily the thing that developed my ear and technical facility(fretting the right fret on the right string on time) the most.

I needed a foundation to build on, otherwise I was just guessing where the notes I wanted would be.

[pawlowski6132]

I know the numbers system, but it's the #9 spices that throw me off when I have to transpose on the fly. I'm still playing things with memorized progression grips. My hope playing with the big band is the charts take me out of my comfort zone and I'll see new ways to break up progressions.

A sharp nine is in the exact same position in every key for the same grip, what throws you off?

[pamosmusic]

A sharp nine is in the exact same position in every key for the same grip, what throws you off?

I don’t know man play Billie’s Bounce in B and you tell us?

[pawlowski6132]

I don’t know man play Billie’s Bounce in B and you tell us?

I just did tell you. A sharp nine is three half steps up from the root regardless of your grip regardless of key, never changes.

[pamosmusic]

Sounds like a complete waste of time.

And I guess since we have this argument again, I’ll say it again.

Play a tune in a different key every day you practice it. Either it takes a long time because it’s hard, in which case its probably sometime you need to practice; or it’s easy and you can do it as a matter of course, in which case how much time could it possibly take?

And for the record … the goal is generally to play interesting C major stuff in a free and musical manner rather than to play one of your two to three C major grips whenever the chord symbol pops up. So the idea isn’t that the grips look the same every time, but that the fingerboard layout moves a little bit every time you switch key.

Imagine you’re a pianist and you sit down at a keyboard where middle C is five notes below the middle position on the keyboard. It would mess you up to no end.

[pamosmusic]

I just did tell you. A sharp nine is three half steps up from the root regardless of your grip regardless of key, never changes.

I guess you didn’t play Billie’s Bounce in B before you told us though.

And there are dozens of ways to play a dominant chord. Changing key makes me have to reduce things to the basics, because it’s actually quite hard to feel fluent and free when I’m in a key I don’t know.

So if I’m going to be blunt, changing key is inconsequential only if you’ve decided not to work past those couple basics in the first place.

[pawlowski6132]

I guess you didn’t play Billie’s Bounce in B before you told us though.

And there are dozens of ways to play a dominant chord. Changing key makes me have to reduce things to the basics, because it’s actually quite hard to feel fluent and free when I’m in a key I don’t know.

So if I’m going to be blunt, changing key is inconsequential only if you’ve decided not to work past those couple basics in the first place.

What are you talking about? Why do you have to reduce things to basics? A grip is a grip, a progression is a progression see exact same thing in any key

Learn a progression with chords having root on the 6th and on the 5th strings and you can play anything in any key as long as you know the progressions and your intervals.

[pawlowski6132]

And I guess since we have this argument again, I’ll say it again.

Play a tune in a different key every day you practice it. Either it takes a long time because it’s hard, in which case its probably sometime you need to practice; or it’s easy and you can do it as a matter of course, in which case how much time could it possibly take?

And for the record … the goal is generally to play interesting C major stuff in a free and musical manner rather than to play one of your two to three C major grips whenever the chord symbol pops up. So the idea isn’t that the grips look the same every time, but that the fingerboard layout moves a little bit every time you switch key.

Imagine you’re a pianist and you sit down at a keyboard where middle C is five notes below the middle position on the keyboard. It would mess you up to no end.

I don't know what you're talking about either. If I can play a song I can play it instantly in any key. What is so hard about that I don't understand it?

[pauln]

A lot of players (all instruments) simplify their organisation by dividing the 7 basic chords types into 2 categories, Tonic sounding or Dominant sounding. To simplify, it's basically any chord that doesn't contain the 4th degree is Tonic in function, and every other chord has a Dominant function. So if you are developing devices, or cells, or "mini lines" that be sequenced within each of the CAGED forms, you can get by with just 2 types, ideas that are either T or D. I learned of this concept years ago from someone describing George Benson's basic approach. So if it's good enough for George...

What 7 basic chords types? Do you mean from harmonizing the major and three minor scales with 7th chords?

Does that 4th degree rule reference the chord's 4th degree or resolution chord's 4th? What about quartal chords? Without a 3rd they serve as "multi-tonics"...

Minor - Am7 and quartal x7778x with A's 4th both sound like Tonics
Major - Amaj7 and quartal x99910x without A's 4th both sound like Tonics

(but notice that x99910x quartal can be a tonic chord for both Amaj7 and Bm7 !)

[pamosmusic]

What are you talking about? Why do you have to reduce things to basics? A grip is a grip, a progression is a progression see exact same thing in any key

Learn a progression with chords having root on the 6th and on the 5th strings and you can play anything in any key as long as you know the progressions and your intervals.

This is case in point.

If your goal is to play something compelling or to actually comp for the soloist using voicings that suit what’s happening around you then things get a bit more fluid than just having those two voicings.

If you’d like to voicelead then it’s even more interesting.

If you have any interest in the melody of your voicings then it’s trickier still.

Those things are not easy and doing them in other keys is difficult and does take practice. Or maybe I'm just dense.

[pawlowski6132]

This is case in point.

If your goal is to play something compelling or to actually comp for the soloist using voicings that suit what’s happening around you then things get a bit more fluid than just having those two voicings.

If you’d like to voicelead then it’s even more interesting.

If you have any interest in the melody of your voicings then it’s trickier still.

Those things are not easy and doing them in other keys is difficult and does take practice. Or maybe I'm just dense.

You can play any inversion of 7th chords with extensions on the 5th or 6th string. It makes no difference.

I got some great advice on this form not too long ago. Don't overcomplicate it.

[pamosmusic]

You can play any inversion of 7th chords with extensions on the 5th or 6th string. It makes no difference.

I got some great advice on this form not too long ago. Don't overcomplicate it.

Okay?

Im not saying that you MUST learn all these things right now. I tell students to work on shell voicings w roots on the sixth and fifth strings for quite a long time. In large part because they are easy to transpose and find in different keys.

So if that’s what you’re working on, then in all probability, transposing isn’t that hard to do once you can make the transposition in your head. But that doesn’t mean that you’ve reached the end of the journey, it doesn’t mean that what you’re doing is all there is, and it doesn’t mean that the way someone else has chosen to practice—probably because their goals are different than yours—is a waste of time.

[pamosmusic]

So with all that said, I’m not trying to “over complicate things.” You decided to say that Allen’s practice was “a waste of time” and I’m informing you that there are numerous reasons why it wouldn’t be

[jazznylon]

Been recentedly working on a head in multiple keys in multiple positions (shooting for 12 x 12).. is it a waste of time? Dunno, but its fun... strange man that I am

[princeplanet]

What 7 basic chords types? Do you mean from harmonizing the major and three minor scales with 7th chords?

Does that 4th degree rule reference the chord's 4th degree or resolution chord's 4th? What about quartal chords? Without a 3rd they serve as "multi-tonics"...

Minor - Am7 and quartal x7778x with A's 4th both sound like Tonics
Major - Amaj7 and quartal x99910x without A's 4th both sound like Tonics

(but notice that x99910x quartal can be a tonic chord for both Amaj7 and Bm7 !)

Obviously I was simply referring to the harmonised major scale, with I , iii, vi being Tonic and the other 4 chords being Dominant in function.

Of course with minor keys, given that tonic m6 is essentially a Dom sound (contains tritone), then everything can be Dominant.

But yeah, all bets are off with Quartals!

[pauln]

I don't think deliberately playing an instance of something (scale, chord, melody, harmony, or song) in all keys is particularly useful for how the guitar is played, unless one plays by thinking of the construction names of the pitches, intervals, scales, degrees, and chords. Unlike the non-string instruments, everything on the finger board is isomorphic where the structure-preserving mappings between two structures of the same type hold good up to the ends of the finger board and/or open strings.

I also don't think playing in one position (even through the keys as an exercise) is particularly useful for how the guitar is played, unless again, one plays by thinking of the construction names of the pitches, intervals, scales, degrees, and chords, or in the case of reading music (especially sight reading) one wishes to not move their eyes off the page.

For me, I practice and explore tunes; everything I need to know how to play is in the tunes I want to learn how to perform.

[rpjazzguitar]

I think this is relevant.

To take a really simple case -- do you ever slide into a chord from the chord a fret higher? If you do, do you also do it when you solo? And, if you're sliding into a V7 from above, do you think about the iim of the V7 a fret higher?

So, maybe you've identified the V7 the iim and the V7 and iim a fret higher. An easy way to create those sounds is to use the chord tones of each chord. (Later, you'll add consonant sounding notes and still later, more dissonant sounding notes).

"Chord tones of each chord". How do you get there? One excellent way is to know the notes in the chords you use and to know the fingerboard -- cold. Another way is to work out arpeggio fingerings in multiple spots. The latter approach may make things easier at tempos which are too high for you to be thinking too much.

The point here is that this is taking a fragment of a tune -- and a move that occurs all the time -- and making it a basis for soloing by learning just what you need to know to execute it. Once you've got the arp for the chord, you can play it in the song.

Then, have IRealBook change the key by a 5th and try it again. 12 keys.

You'll want to have each arp in 4 or 5 places on the neck, so it's some work. (I use 5 places, but I think Chuck Wayne used 4. Warren Nunes thought, iirc, more in triads than four note chords.)

[AllanAllen]

What’s the 5th inversion you use?

I do slide into chords, but I don’t think of it as a new chord, it’s how I get to a chord, not a tangible change. If that makes sense.

[pamosmusic]

What’s the 5th inversion you use?

I do slide into chords, but I don’t think of it as a new chord, it’s how I get to a chord, not a tangible change. If that makes sense.

Fifth inversion?

[rpjazzguitar]

What’s the 5th inversion you use?

I do slide into chords, but I don’t think of it as a new chord, it’s how I get to a chord, not a tangible change. If that makes sense.

Not an inversion, since we're talking about 4 note chords.

It's a fingering. For a G7 it would be in between the one with a G on top and the usual one with a B. Just a different fingering that I find convenient. Starts with second finger on the D string 5th fret.