Playing in all keys.

[pamosmusic]

Yeah, I was at a jam and someone wrecked me by calling Moanin' in Bb. There are lyrics, and well, you adjust for the singer. That's part of my renewed interest in 12 keys. I didn't know there were words for Moanin' and just assumed it would always be done in F like the recordings. Going from F to Bb flipped my root strings and it was rough. I ended up laying back way more than I would have liked but we got through the song and I found a problem that needs fixing.

This is why the stage is the best spot to find your weaknesses.

The practice room is a pretty darn good place to find your weaknesses too

[pamosmusic]

You also need to become aware of Sub Dom. That's where much of the good stuff comes from when playing Jazz, or in a Jazz style.

I think for a lot of folks (maybe me at this point, but maybe not if you ask me in a month, who knows) the subdominant category is sort of a sub section of the dominant … ii and IV being pretty often employed as “sus” sounds over the dominant.

[AllanAllen]

The practice room is a pretty darn good place to find your weaknesses too

The point of sharing my experience was the practice room only gets you so far. I thought I had Moanin' as good as I needed it.

[AllanAllen]

Allan.... I've always used Roman Numerals.... Like I VI II V... or I VI II V of II.
I always hear and Play Chord Patterns.... Most Tunes are just a simple Chord Patterns.

It takes a little work.... But at least you make choices as to where your playing is coming from. And it's simple to change or Transpose.

I know the numbers system, but it's the #9 spices that throw me off when I have to transpose on the fly. I'm still playing things with memorized progression grips. My hope playing with the big band is the charts take me out of my comfort zone and I'll see new ways to break up progressions.

[Reg]

I think for a lot of folks (maybe me at this point, but maybe not if you ask me in a month, who knows) the subdominant category is sort of a sub section of the dominant … ii and IV being pretty often employed as “sus” sounds over the dominant.

Well for many it is..... the category. Definitely not a sub section of Doms. Unless that's how you use it. And even if your using II V's or IV... or sus sound... it can easily be a Target. That doesn't need or want to resolve.

Your limiting your playing options as well as what you might be hearing. Don't get stuck in simple functional harmonic Harmonic Rhythm... You don't always need to play and hear... "Vanilla".

Harmony is just like rhythm.... you can subdivide and not always have "Tonic" ... Tonal Targets.

[Reg]

I know the numbers system, but it's the #9 spices that throw me off when I have to transpose on the fly. I'm still playing things with memorized progression grips. My hope playing with the big band is the charts take me out of my comfort zone and I'll see new ways to break up progressions.

So eventually your going to understand and be aware of Tonal organizations.

Simple Version.... You have "Tonal Targets"....which have implied Functional Organization as well as harmonic and melodic musical organization. Ex. #9 can imply Tonal References.... what extensions and alterations you use with Chord Patterns and where to pull from melodically. It's not all just embellishment.

Analyze jazz standards, like 100's of them... with melodies and changes. Start trying to organize extensions on changes with reference to... Melodies as well as where and how the chords are used. You'll start to see and hear standard Chord Patterns with implied extensions... and how they change depending on what the Tonal Reference is. Reference can be old school song book style, Latin or Brazilian... Blues versions of.

Eventually, (not that long), You'll have collections of Plug and Play chord patterns. They are somewhat like Licks... chord Licks that imply Harmonic References and organization...

[Reg]

Pick a tunes... or maybe one of the tunes you've been posting and I'll post some examples of what can be implied as well as different options.

Just a note.... this approach of playing isn't like a practice and perform type of playing. You somewhat need to be able to react and interact with where the tune(s) is or can go etc...

[AllanAllen]

Pick a tunes... or maybe one of the tunes you've been posting and I'll post some examples of what can be implied as well as different options.

Just a note.... this approach of playing isn't like a practice and perform type of playing. You somewhat need to be able to react and interact with where the tune(s) is or can go etc...

I fall in love too easily. That’s one I just memorized 2 ways to play through the RB extension chords.

[pamosmusic]

Harmony is just like rhythm.... you can subdivide and not always have "Tonic" ... Tonal Targets.

Totally.

I think the idea behind having tonic and dominant material is that it’s almost synonymous with the vocabulary you’re using.

Like if the tune is in C, it doesn’t have to be that I’m always aiming for C. I could be aiming for Am or Dm or some other chord depending on where it falls in the form. But that is — for a brief moment — your tonic.

I think the formal vocabulary of “tonic” and “dominant” isn’t always descriptive of what’s happening in jazz music. “Target” and “The-Stuff-You-Use-To-Get-There” is maybe more accurate.

[Bobby Timmons]

At the risk of pointing out the obvious, guitar has very wide frets in some places and very narrow frets in others; higher action in some places and lower in others; string tension feels different, etc.

So if we grant that it can feel a little weird playing someone else’s guitar, then it kind of follows that we’d feel a little weird playing material on our own guitar where we’re not used to playing it.

Which is to say that if you practice things in a couple keys and then get to Stablemates, or even the bridge to Sophisticated Lady or Sentimental Mood, it’s not going to go great.

It’s certainly not like piano where you’ll be totally lost, but it’ll be sloppy for sure and the ideas wont be on the tips of your fingers.

I think with guitar I’ve always just wondered Why Not?

… like … if playing in other keys on guitar is easy enough that we discuss whether or not it’s even necessary … then whats the case against it?

This

[princeplanet]

You also need to become aware of Sub Dom. That's where much of the good stuff comes from when playing Jazz, or in a Jazz style.

I'd be interested in an example of where just T or D won't cover a situation, if you care to provide one. Just curious as to what this "good stuff" is you speak of.

While we're on the subject, with regard to which "category" we place the IV chord into, as opposed to it having it's own category, if we see it as either T or D, it seems to be able to swing either way depending on context. For ex. the IV chord in Autumn Leaves (bar 4)- you can play Tonic material over that. To make it even
more obvious, Imagine you come across a saccharine progression (elevator music?) like: Imaj7 / vim7 / iiim7 / IVmaj7 etc. For the IV chord, do you pull from your Tonic bag? Or Dominant? To my ear, clearly both can work so in this instance, at least, there'd be no real need for a Sub Dom pool to draw from.

But I think you might mean that where Sub Dom precedes Dom, perhaps you get more juice if you feed into the Dom as opposed to pre-empt it?

[orri]

I used to run the major scale in 5 positions through all 12 keys in different patterns. I got tired of it and moved onto heads thinking I would run those around the circle of 4ths, but it’s fallen off my routine.


How many of us here go through something in 12 keys every day? And what’s your system?

Scale practise I vary a lot. At the moment I am closer to one scale per day, play it in multiple positions, intervals, multiple patterns, arpeggios, chords within the scale etc. But I have also in periods been more into doing the same scale exercise in all 12 keys.

These days I have been working on playing phrases in all 12 keys.

I have few band in a box exercise backing tracks, which if for instance all 12 2-5-1 or all 12 dominant chords, all 12 m6 chords etc. with 2 or 4 bars in each key (they all go through the circle of fifths).

If you want to do something in all 12 keys, is much more achievable if you just spend 4 bars (or other limited amount of time) in each key. It's also nice to do it time and seeing which key is next.

These days I'm using these tracks for playing licks in all 12 keys, but I've also used them for chord and scale exercises.

When I work on learning standards I aim at doing them in several keys, but I can't claim I've been consistently doing it. I aim at learning to sing the melody and I am close to being able to play whatever I can sing, so doing it in 3-6 keys is usually enough to decouple the melody from finger patterns. Many standards have a "trickier" spot, which is tricky in every key. Then I analyze based on scale degree and chord function, in order to find the correct melody notes or chords by thinking.

[emanresu]

Oh, this thread reminded me about this cool exercise I've done sometimes.
Pick a scale and the mode, pick a starting note, play the scale from there with 3 different fingers -
meaning in 3 different positions. And keep the position, no switching.

[Reg]

I'd be interested in an example of where just T or D won't cover a situation, if you care to provide one. Just curious as to what this "good stuff" is you speak of.

While we're on the subject, with regard to which "category" we place the IV chord into, as opposed to it having it's own category, if we see it as either T or D, it seems to be able to swing either way depending on context. For ex. the IV chord in Autumn Leaves (bar 4)- you can play Tonic material over that. To make it even
more obvious, Imagine you come across a saccharine progression (elevator music?) like: Imaj7 / vim7 / iiim7 / IVmaj7 etc. For the IV chord, do you pull from your Tonic bag? Or Dominant? To my ear, clearly both can work so in this instance, at least, there'd be no real need for a Sub Dom pool to draw from.

But I think you might mean that where Sub Dom precedes Dom, perhaps you get more juice if you feed into the Dom as opposed to pre-empt it?

yea... Prince, all those chords that can go to either Tonic or Dominant... or even better Hang by them selves
Obviously all the Maj. and Min Sub-Dom standard chords and the modal interchange chords and then when you start using Chord Patterns instead of single chords, you open up Target Functional harmonic space. Subs also are great Subdom. functional space. Blues, related IV chords etc…

yea... I also like using SD function as tool for expanding Tonal targets. Like in sequences or chromatic movement... Well You Needn't..... Miles version, On bridge...

G7.... play off G7 as tonic, you have SD option of pulling and implying... the related II- or D- and then you can pull from the Diatonic related chords of D-.... Fmaj Lyd. etc.

Ab7... you have same options, but the MM door can be opened... the Eb MM and the Pents and then using pattern for where to pull from. anyway... I see and hear those types of harmonic areas all as SD. Which can be labeled Tonic or Dominant. It just depends on what you do.

So sure you could label as Tonic or Dom. but I usually do not. SD musically gives me more options.... where I expand the changes.

[AllanAllen]

Pick a tunes... or maybe one of the tunes you've been posting and I'll post some examples of what can be implied as well as different options.

Just a note.... this approach of playing isn't like a practice and perform type of playing. You somewhat need to be able to react and interact with where the tune(s) is or can go etc...

Was I fall in love too easily not a good pick? Do you want something with less going on harmonically like Four?

[pamosmusic]

Was I fall in love too easily not a good pick? Do you want something with less going on harmonically like Four?

What are you looking for here?

EDIT: This sounds sarcastic, but is not. Actually curious what you're wanting to see demonstrated on the tune.

[BreckerFan]

I totally agree on learning tunes in 12 keys (tho I majorly slack on this and one day at a jam will get totally exposed lolll)

But for single lines, I don't think the challenge is playing in 12 keys, it's playing in 12 keys in the same position. When improvising you don't want to be shifting positions every time you change keys, you ideally want to be able to see how all the keys overlap each other.

One thing I'll do sometimes is try to play a scale or melodic cell in all 12 keys in a single 5 fret area. This forces you to go through basically every iteration of the shape. But warning, it will also make you feel bad about your fretboard knowledge lol.

[AllanAllen]

Pick a tunes... or maybe one of the tunes you've been posting and I'll post some examples of what can be implied as well as different options.

Just a note.... this approach of playing isn't like a practice and perform type of playing. You somewhat need to be able to react and interact with where the tune(s) is or can go etc...

What are you looking for here?

Peter, see above. Reg was going to post examples of implied harmony.

Basically the same thing I've been trying to figure out since last summer, how the hell do I comp beyond memorizing the changes.

Seems like there's this chasm between playing memorized changes and jazz comping. The big band charts are helping as well as learning more and more tunes... it'll probably just take a lot of time and gigging to get it down. Someone posted a bunch of Red Garland songs last time and that really helped me see how simple I could take it. Then I saw a clip of Altar playing a blues and he's doing all this Freddie Green movement and when I tried it, it made things a mess.

Now I'm rambling....

[James W]

I totally agree on learning tunes in 12 keys (tho I majorly slack on this and one day at a jam will get totally exposed lolll)

But for single lines, I don't think the challenge is playing in 12 keys, it's playing in 12 keys in the same position. When improvising you don't want to be shifting positions every time you change keys, you ideally want to be able to see how all the keys overlap each other.

One thing I'll do sometimes is try to play a scale or melodic cell in all 12 keys in a single 5 fret area. This forces you to go through basically every iteration of the shape. But warning, it will also make you feel bad about your fretboard knowledge lol.

Indeed. What's also useful is being able to go through all keys in a single five fret area in different cycles - e.g. up in semitones at first, then in fifths, fourths etc. and then eventually onto random movements. For this, I find the sheet I tore out of Mike Steinel's book on jazz vocab (a picture of which I took and posted on the first page of this thread) very useful.

[GuyBoden]

I practiced Major, Melodic minor scales in all 12 keys for about 5-10 years, using the 3NPS seven patterns, then linked the patterns together to play the whole fretboard. (Later I used 4NPS.)

I learned the whole fretboard this way, but unfortunately not songs, 3NPS using intervals and licks.

[pamosmusic]

Peter, see above. Reg was going to post examples of implied harmony.

Basically the same thing I've been trying to figure out since last summer, how the hell do I comp beyond memorizing the changes.

Seems like there's this chasm between playing memorized changes and jazz comping. The big band charts are helping as well as learning more and more tunes... it'll probably just take a lot of time and gigging to get it down. Someone posted a bunch of Red Garland songs last time and that really helped me see how simple I could take it. Then I saw a clip of Altar playing a blues and he's doing all this Freddie Green movement and when I tried it, it made things a mess.

Now I'm rambling....

Oh yeah okay.

I think starting simple is really important. And there are I think two separate but related things.

1. Playing substitutions that imply extensions of your chords.
2. playing actual separate chords that create motion.

with both I think there are places that are pretty obvious to start based on how common they are.

For the first, 3-9 chords are super common. So that’s like playing an Fmaj7 when you see Dm7 so that you get the notes 3 5 7 and 9.

For the second that’s sideslipping. So moving from a half step above or below the target chord up or down to the target chord.

Picking one of those things and playing through a chord progression using it on every chord can be very helpful. Then pick the other thing. Then try to mix and match them. This is another case when simple, manageable goals are good.

And to borrow Reg’s chord pattern vocabulary … if you are doing an exercise and find a sound you like, spend some time trying to make it sound good, rhythmically interesting, and then treat it like a lick and take it through other keys and stuff.

[AllanAllen]

For the first, 3-9 chords are super common. So that’s like playing an Fmaj7 when you see Dm7 so that you get the notes 3 5 7 and 9.

This is just like triad pairs for arppegios right, but with a full chord? I could also build extensions off the 5th, or 7th, and it leads to the Charlie Parker Cherokee revelation?

For the second that’s sideslipping. So moving from a half step above or below the target chord up or down to the target chord.

I would lump sideslipping into the Freddie Green stuff that I can hear other people doing, but it sounds bad when I try.

[pamosmusic]

This is just like triad pairs for arppegios right, but with a full chord? I could also build extensions off the 5th, or 7th, and it leads to the Charlie Parker Cherokee revelation?

Triad pairs are a specific thing … two triads that don’t share any notes in common, which for that reason, are particularly useful for establishing a scale sound. F and G are a triad pair. F and Am are not because they share A and C in common.

Youre probably thinking of upperstructure triads, where you take an extended harmony and establish it by pulling a familiar chord shape from the extended parts of the chord … like taking F A C E G and just playing C E and G.

In that case, this is essentially the same thing as using upper structures but with 7th chords. Like with most things, you can use any seventh chord as an upper structure but there are a couple that are far and away more common than the others.

For CMaj7, that’s major 7 off the root, minor 7 off the third, and minor 7 off the sixth.

For Cmin7, that’s minor 7 off the root, minor 7 off the fifth, and major 7 off the third.

For dominant there are lots, but diminished 7 off the third (or fifth, flat seven, or flat nine also) will get you a long way.

For half dimished, it’s probably minor 7 off the third and maj 7 off the flat five.

Anyway … pick one sound to work with and go with it for a while.

I would lump sideslipping into the Freddie Green stuff that I can hear other people doing, but it sounds bad when I try.

This is probably because of rhythm. Try just playing two beats on one chord, two beats on the approach chord of the next, two beats on the new chord, etc. Just really strong four on the floor quarter notes.

For what it’s worth, side slipping is a ridiculously useful learning tool because on guitar it’s a super intuitive and easy way to start playing something based on where you’re going rather than where you are.

[pamosmusic]

Again … attempting to translate reg here, but when I hear him talk about expanded tonal references or some such, I usually take him to mean a combination of those two very simple tools.

If your Eb becomes Gm, then who’s to say you can’t target that Gm with a D7? Who’s to say you can’t play Am along with that D7?

I think the blues is probably the most useful tool for this because you can see these tools used explicitly. Bar 9 and 10 are both a C7. Well hey let’s put a Gm in bar 9 then. Well hey then why not put a D7 in bar 8 to get us to Gm? Oh well then we should probably put an Am7b5 in bar 7. Oh wouldn’t it be cool if we put a little Bbm Eb7 thing in bar 6? Then maybe we cram Am7b5 and D7 into bar 7 and do Abm and Db7 in bar 8 so we get a cool walkdown thing. And voila … you’ve got a Bird Blues.

The Bird Blues and Jazz Blues are basically different degrees of that expanded targeting junk that folks were doing anyway … just written into the music.

And for what it’s worth … the sideslipping is so important because it’s just kicking the tires on the ability just to keep track of what’s coming up rather than just what chord you happen to be on. I can’t do a bunch of the fancy stuff because I don’t have the chops, but the seeing and hearing a few bars down the road is absolutely foundational to the idea of playing not just memorized stuff.

And it’s like chess … grandmasters see entire games down the road in front of them. None of us are trying to be grandmasters, but if you can’t see the next move, you can’t really play the game. And that can totally be learned with a little practice.

[AllanAllen]

You went too big on the triad pairs and upper structure thing and lost me. I was thinking of replacing a Fmaj7 with A minor or C major. Just one step at a time. I know I can expand this stuff infinitely, but I can't absorb it all at once.