rearrange violin chords or not?

[orri]

I am struggling with the highlighted chords here:
(from a solo violin piece by Bach)



The blue Dm voicing is playable but I do find it challenging to to phrase beautifully with 10 8 7 10 x x
The first two occurences I think sound pretty good if I omit the lower 3rd (F) and just play x 5 7 x 6 x, but the third occurrence I feel the the lower third (F) is moving the to the 9 (E) so it is needed. If I play it with phrase preceding in 5th position it feels easier and obtainable to get it to sound nice with a bit more practise.
x 5 3 2 x 1 might be an option which doesn't need a shift. but I feel shifting to 10 8 7 10 x x should be easier.

I feel with a reasonable amount of practise I could clean up the 10 8 7 10 x x to sound good in the context but I also feel the 2 first occurances sound good enough with the "cheat" voicing.


The red chord is a Gm6 but this voicing is barely reachable with 3 x 2 x 3 6 with a two fret stretch between 3rd finger (D 5th) and 4th finger (Bb b3rd).
I feel I am quite far from nailing it with nice phrasing, but I could try to practise it more and see if I get closer.

I think the best sounding cheat voicing I've tried is to omit the 6 and just play 3 x x 3 3 6.
I've also s 3 x x 3 5 6 which omits the fifth, but has a #4 between the 6 and the b3 in a rather high register which somehow feels like it doesn't belong in this piece.
And I've also considred moving the root up an octave to x x 5 7 5 6 it stills has the same #4 which somehow isn's as piearcing in this close voicing, but moving the bass note up an octave ruins the nice bass voice movement.
I've also considered if I should try some kind of rolled chord where all the notes doesn't need to ring at the same time, a bit like how block chords are played on a violin.


Any insights?

[setemupjoe]

I’d lose the low F on the first 2 blue chords and lose the low D on the third blue chord. The stretch on the red chord is never going to be comfortable. Your alternatives seem sensible.


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[pamosmusic]

I am struggling with the highlighted chords here:
(from a solo violin piece by Bach)



The blue Dm voicing is playable but I do find it challenging to to phrase beautifully with 10 8 7 10 x x
The first two occurences I think sound pretty good if I omit the lower 3rd (F) and just play x 5 7 x 6 x, but the third occurrence I feel the the lower third (F) is moving the to the 9 (E) so it is needed. If I play it with phrase preceding in 5th position it feels easier and obtainable to get it to sound nice with a bit more practise.
x 5 3 2 x 1 might be an option which doesn't need a shift. but I feel shifting to 10 8 7 10 x x should be easier.

I feel with a reasonable amount of practise I could clean up the 10 8 7 10 x x to sound good in the context but I also feel the 2 first occurances sound good enough with the "cheat" voicing.


The red chord is a Gm6 but this voicing is barely reachable with 3 x 2 x 3 6 with a two fret stretch between 3rd finger (D 5th) and 4th finger (Bb b3rd).
I feel I am quite far from nailing it with nice phrasing, but I could try to practise it more and see if I get closer.

I think the best sounding cheat voicing I've tried is to omit the 6 and just play 3 x x 3 3 6.
I've also s 3 x x 3 5 6 which omits the fifth, but has a #4 between the 6 and the b3 in a rather high register which somehow feels like it doesn't belong in this piece.
And I've also considred moving the root up an octave to x x 5 7 5 6 it stills has the same #4 which somehow isn's as piearcing in this close voicing, but moving the bass note up an octave ruins the nice bass voice movement.
I've also considered if I should try some kind of rolled chord where all the notes doesn't need to ring at the same time, a bit like how block chords are played on a violin.


Any insights?

Oof.

For what it’s worth, the D minor Chaconne is one of the hardest pieces in the sort of standard classical guitar rep. ***

If you just want to hear the sounds, and you’re not playing it for a grade or a concert, I’d change whatever you need to keep melody and chord qualities intact.

*** there are plenty of crazier pieces out there now, but this is the one that put Segovia on that map. It’s in the upper echelons of the grad level classical performance rep.

[docsteve]

No classical guitarist would play thar D minor chord up on the neck. I would play it in 2nd position, or maybe in 5th and leave out the lower F.


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[Rob MacKillop]

I hate to say this, but if you have to ask such questions, you are not ready for the Chaconne. Seriously. I've been teaching classical guitar for over 30 years, and the one thing guaranteed to hinder a student's development is for them to jump to virtuoso pieces before they have developed to the point where the next piece seems the next logical step for them. I make half my living from people who jumped ahead big style, got stuck, and need a sherpa to show them a slower but more sure way to the summit.

[orri]

I hate to say this, but if you have to ask such questions, you are not ready for the Chaconne.

You're definitely right about that.
But i do enjoy working on it. Just for the fact that it is very long makes it feel unrealistic that ill be able to play it, but i do enjoy trying, and i do make progress.

I started with the allemande as a sight reading exercise but kept on playing it and working on it. I got the entire dm partita in the same pdf from imslp, so i started looking at the other movements and enjoy them a lot too. The Chaconne is much more difficult and much longer. But I think the first few lines are so insanely beautiful so i'd take it as a win if i can learn only the first page somewhat decently.

I recorded this where i played the sarabande:

I know it is what it is. I am not trying to be classical guitarist.
There are several phrases I know I can do better (and there are wrong notes). But i enjoy playing it and working on it and am happy with the progress i've made

[orri]

That’s not a Gm6

My sincerest apologies

[Rob MacKillop]

Orrì, sorry for being pompous! I’m embarrassed about my post, but I thought you were trying it on classical guitar - much wider fretboard - and hadn’t done much in the way of classical playing. Having heard you play the Sarabande so beautifully on a “jazz box”, you can of course play anything you want, whenever you want. That was really nice.
I do get complete beginner classical-guitar students who want to play the Chaconne in ten lessons. That’s the trigger for my response, but I see your needs are different. I look forward to more videos by you.

[Christian Miller]

My sincerest apologies

;-)

Apologies, probs not very funny… but there are people who are like this without any trace of irony.

But that move,

I IV6b V7a (however you want to call it)

is such a common opening gesture… you’ll start to see it everywhere…

Bach prelude in C is another very obvious example..

[Christian Miller]

You're definitely right about that.
But i do enjoy working on it. Just for the fact that it is very long makes it feel unrealistic that ill be able to play it, but i do enjoy trying, and i do make progress.

I started with the allemande as a sight reading exercise but kept on playing it and working on it. I got the entire dm partita in the same pdf from imslp, so i started looking at the other movements and enjoy them a lot too. The Chaconne is much more difficult and much longer. But I think the first few lines are so insanely beautiful so i'd take it as a win if i can learn only the first page somewhat decently.

I recorded this where i played the sarabande:

I know it is what it is. I am not trying to be classical guitarist.
There are several phrases I know I can do better (and there are wrong notes). But i enjoy playing it and working on it and am happy with the progress i've made

Lovely work orri! Sounds great with the thumb I think.

EDIT: thinking about your OP, I think pruning down the voicings to prioritise musical flow is probably what I’d do….

[orri]

Orrì, sorry for being pompous! I’m embarrassed about my post, but I thought you were trying it on classical guitar - much wider fretboard - and hadn’t done much in the way of classical playing. Having heard you play the Sarabande so beautifully on a “jazz box”, you can of course play anything you want, whenever you want. That was really nice.
I do get complete beginner classical-guitar students who want to play the Chaconne in ten lessons. That’s the trigger for my response, but I see your needs are different. I look forward to more videos by you.

Thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate it.

To be honest, I didn't know this was part of classical guitar repertoire. I only knew it as a solo violin piece.

I just looked at videos on youtube. They don't seem to be playing the same arrangement/transcription, but of those I've seen they do all seem to tune their 6th string to D.
Is there a "main" classical guitar transcription that most people use? I don't see one on imslp which probably means that there are no sufficiently old to be on there.

[Rob MacKillop]

The Segovia edition remains popular, and is easy to get hold of, I think. I haven’t seen it for 35 years, but it’s still the main one, I think. Yes, almost all transcriptions use dropped D.

[alltunes]

Apologies for the diversion….what is considered one the easier “movements” from sonatas and partitas for solo violin to adapt to guitar?

[pamosmusic]

Apologies for the diversion….what is considered one the easier “movements” from sonatas and partitas for solo violin to adapt to guitar?

Ooo good diversion though. Looking forward to Rob’s answer on this one.

I never spent much time with the violin stuff. In the cello suites, folks usually consider the Sarabandes and Minuets to be the easier movements (not easy, mind you, but relatively speaking) and the Preludes and Gigues to be the hardest.

[Rob MacKillop]

As it says on the cover, my book is for plectrum technique, but it can also be read with fingerstyle technique. Either way, the minuets are often the easiest, though my favourite movements are the preludes, allemandes and sarabands.

The violin works lend themselves less successfully - as written - to guitar performance, due mainly to some chords with impossible stretches on the longer fingerboard of the guitar. But I used to play them with classical guitar technique and a minimal amount of readjustment. Some of the ‘Doubles’ make excellent plectrum studies, more suited to a pick than fingerstyle technique. I don’t think any of the violin works are easy on the guitar, so I always suggest you work on the cello suites first.

I like playing the cello suites with Aquila LOW A strings, all of which are tuned a 5th below normal: ADGCEA.

At that pitch you don’t need to add a bass line or fill-out chords.

The best tuning is the original, and I’ve explored that on a ukulele tuned CGDA and also a tenor banjo. It’s amazing how everything seems to be easy in this tuning.

[grahambop]

Thanks for the kind words. I really appreciate it.

To be honest, I didn't know this was part of classical guitar repertoire. I only knew it as a solo violin piece.

I just looked at videos on youtube. They don't seem to be playing the same arrangement/transcription, but of those I've seen they do all seem to tune their 6th string to D.
Is there a "main" classical guitar transcription that most people use? I don't see one on imslp which probably means that there are no sufficiently old to be on there.

There are 3 versions for guitar on IMSLP, look under the ‘arrangements and transcriptions’ tab. I haven’t tried them though, since I have the Segovia arrangement.

Actually I don’t find the Chaconne all that difficult, it’s surprisingly playable (in the guitar version) if you just want to sight read through it fairly slowly. Obviously the fast bits are tricky to do at the proper speed though.

[orri]

Apologies for the diversion….what is considered one the easier “movements” from sonatas and partitas for solo violin to adapt to guitar?

From the Partita 2 in D minor the Allemande seems the easiest. It is in two sections which can easily be split in two more manageable assignments/projects.

The Gigue seemed the second easiest to sight read but I haven't spent much time on learning it.

Apart from the two chords in the OP I haven't come across any significant hurdles with playing the public domain violin sheet music as is, in standard tuning.

I've tried to read some of the cello music but cellos go down to C, and are written in the less familiar bass clef (which I can read, but with less experience). So buying Rob's book seems tempting. Does it use standard tuning? Is it available in from an EU based webshop (less import fee hassle)?

In my teens my teacher assigned me the Sarabande in Bm from a photocopy from a book called Classical studies for pick style guitar by William Leavitt.
From that book he also assigned me some of the Inventions which are easier. But they are duets (written by Bach as one part for each hand on a keyboard). Playing the "right hand" part only, mostly works as a stand alone piece but I remember there is at least one trill that lasts for a few bars that makes less sense with the other part missing, so they are more ideal to work on with a teacher or other guitarist (my current teacher has done at least one where he plays one part on guitar and sings the other).

[alltunes]

Thank you for the suggestions on the Bach solo violin movements. I have that Leavitt plectrum study book (forgot about it until this thread). There are lots of interesting pieces in that book. All standard notation as is all Leavitt.

My intent is to uses these works to practice reading while playing some beautiful melodies. I would never have the time to get the stuff remotely together. Hence my request for easier pieces.

Sidenote: Al DiMeola plays the Sarabande on his album “Land of the Midnight Sun”

I have Rob’s Cello Suite book. It is in treble clef and I believe keys were changed to suit the guitar but I could be wrong. Regardless it is well done and I appreciate the clear legible typeset. I do work from that from time to time and should stick with it more.

Rob what would you consider the easier pieces in your book? Oops I see you said the Minuets.

Thanks

[grahambop]

Here’s a nice version by Petra Polackova (interesting guitar too!)

[Rob MacKillop]

That ^ is a Viennese-style guitar, meaning from the time of Giuliani & Schubert. There were a few variations, some with one "floating" string, or up to four. Petra's is a new version, beefed-up for modern concert halls. She's a great player.

[Rob MacKillop]

Here's a similar one I had for a short while. I add a semi-improvised prelude, and a cadenza at the 2'00" mark. This one was not 'beefed up'.