Three Finger Guitar Technique

[Robertkoa]

Look at the pronation of Farrell's hand, the position of thumb - behind the neck but somewhat back from classical position, the way his pinky flaps around and the tendency to shift. Actually he is pretty close to the way I play.

Now watch carefully, is PF using the pinky on even footing with the other fingers? No. He's not using it 25% of the time.

Compare to Adam Rogers on one extreme and Jim Mullen on the other. AR actually uses the pinky to position shift.

Different right? PF is sort of in between, but still pretty pronated.

Left hand technique is a spectrum. Most players pronate, but some, such as Ben Monder and AR, don't.

You may as well use your pinky - I don't think any player never uses it. The point is that pronating your hand makes it less available anyway, and harder to stretch.

Not sure what's so complicated about that concept, TBH. I'm gonna do a quick video.

OK - I get the 25% thing definitely - that would mean that someone might be forcing the pinky into everything -
'I practiced X hours with Pinky and I am going to use it all the time dammit ' lol.

That is as irrational as not using it at all.

Also - and here I am more novice than most of you going against my own ' points'
rant (lol) .

Someone mentioned earlier about this -
The idea of moving laterally ( I do it but this thread made me more conscious of it ) ...
WITHOUT using Pinky during the actual shift -

So when you get there ( wherever it is ) you still have Pinky if you need it to continue the line smoothly mostly in ascending laterally - someone mentioned that.

I think that might be a really good idea ... to continue the ascending line with pinky at new position then go up a string etc.

But yeah - the chances that you would need the Pinky 25% of the time are slim - if that's the point I get it - AND it only took 12 pages lol .

So we look and say - 'am I forcing the Pinky and either straining hands or putting commas in my lines unintentionally .'..

Also the idea that ascending laterally the position largely STOPS when you place the pinky and you either go down OR continue to ascend but staying in that Position jumping to higher strings ...correct ? - I need to credit who said that before.

Trolling - I don't know what the purpose would be for that.

[christianm77]

OK - I get the 25% thing definitely - that would mean that someone might be forcing the pinky into everything -
'I practiced X hours with Pinky and I am going to use it all the time dammit ' lol.

That is as irrational as not using it at all.

Also - and here I am more novice than most of you going against my own ' points'
rant (lol) .

Someone mentioned earlier about this -
The idea of moving laterally ( I do it but this thread made me more conscious of it ) ...
WITHOUT using Pinky during the actual shift -

So when you get there ( wherever it is ) you still have Pinky if you need it to continue the line smoothly mostly in ascending laterally - someone mentioned that.

I think that might be a really good idea ... to continue the ascending line with pinky at new position then go up a string etc.

But yeah - the chances that you would need the Pinky 25% of the time are slim - if that's the point I get it - AND it only took 12 pages lol .

But some players do use it pretty much equally with the other fingers. People with very legit techniques.

You are very hung up about the pinky... Watch the video. The pinky is simply less useful in some common right hand positions. Pinky use or otherwise is emergent from other considerations.

[WillMbCdn5]

Unless I missed it! I find it interesting that within this discussion there has been little acknowledgement of the relationship of the angle between the floor and the fretboard in relation to left hand technique. Seems like some aspects of left hand technique are better served by having the neck at approx 45 degrees and other aspects are better served with the neck parallel to the floor. How the hand relates to the fretboard is quite different in either case.

Will

[pingu]

Ha! If you say so.

What are you trying to say again?

You know, I give up.... You are clearly trolling. Surely, no one can be this obtuse.

I'm just embarrassed I went so far as to make a video. You win!

the vid was cool , I now completely understand what you're saying Christian
and as it happens I agree with you ....

i dont get get why it got turned into Duelling banjos
weird shit huh ....

as an aside I for one really dig your playing
you pick really clean and fast (much

better than me ...dammit)

still i I do what I do and sometimes people dig it
so that's ok then

pingu three fingers

[christianm77]

Unless I missed it! I find it interesting that within this discussion there has been little acknowledgement of the relationship of the angle between the floor and the fretboard in relation to left hand technique. Seems like some aspects of left hand technique are better served by having the neck at approx 45 degrees and other aspects are better served with the neck parallel to the floor. How the hand relates to the fretboard is quite different in either case.

Will

I mention it briefly in the video. It’s an important consideration.

[Jonah]

Unless I missed it! I find it interesting that within this discussion there has been little acknowledgement of the relationship of the angle between the floor and the fretboard in relation to left hand technique. Seems like some aspects of left hand technique are better served by having the neck at approx 45 degrees and other aspects are better served with the neck parallel to the floor. How the hand relates to the fretboard is quite different in either case.

Will

I think I mentioned this but not directly whne I was describing elbow position and all the Pat O'Brien thing above.

[Jonah]

BY the way another technical thing on left hand that was some kind of discovery for me from Pat O'Brien's methods.

I had an interesting experience. A luthier made a baroque and invited me to try it.
I noticed that the neck was much much thinner than on my baroque guitar he had made before.

I asked why. He said that it was his new conception of neck etc. basically derived from baroque lutes.

But I said: on baroque lutes on has to fret 7th of 8th course sometimes that it why the neck should be very thin.

This is one of the thing that Pat O'Brien describes in his abduction excercises: when you play on 1st string and then you move up (physically up not in pitch) to the 6th string... you thumb on the other side of the neck should move up too.
This is the thing somehow many classical players do not notice - often they try to fix thumb in the middle of the neck and that makes the wrist curve outside too much for lower strings and inside for higher strings...


Actually such a thin neck on baroque guitar can cause problems - because having only 5 courses it is narrow, there is really nowhere to move up actually...
but being almost flat on back side you feel like there is nothing between your thumb and other fingers... and it increased tesion in the hand as if you tried to hold something you do not really have.. like trying to press a sheet of paper.

On the contrary well-curved and rounded neck would help a wrist to achieve more natural position on such a narrow neck that many teachers describe as 'tennis ball' grab.

And on baroque lute where you have very wide working surface of the fretboard you will have this 'tennis ball' grab only with with very thin neck profile.

In that sense how efficient and natural grab the V-neck can give for early acoustic blues playing: three fingers and a thumb and almost horizonthal neck.

[Robertkoa]

I agree with the earlier Posts ( mine , lol ) about LFOD playing.



LFOD Playing = Little Finger On Demand.

Order it from your Cable Company today .



The video about thumb up which points out the limited use of the pinky resultant from that neck grip taught me why I switched about 5 years ago - but I already knew why I did it.

I don't really think about % of what fingers I use and deciding in advance would be restrictive...

I wasn't on this thread to 'learn' this wonderful new 3 finger technique but to warn people that it is not generally a good idea for people who wish to reach a high level of Play.







I can and don't have to 'settle' or far far far less than before.


If I am playing wide intervals my pinky might be 30 % ( I

[Irez87]

I've responded to this thread in Private Messages, because I wasn't sure if I was ready to get back into posting on the Forum again.

I actually studied with a classical guitarist recently, and one of the topics that we discussed was shifting. I've been practicing shifting techniques across the fretboard, informed by Segovia and Johnny Smith. He said it bluntly, shifting doesn't really occur all that often in classical guitar. He even said that the Segovia fingerings were 'almost' useless in real life classical guitar playing because "playing 2 or 3 octave scales doesn't really show up in most classical pieces". He did point me in the direction of a book by Abel Carlevaro, and there were some good shifting ideas in that book.

In jazz, we are mostly playing music that is played on the horn (honk, honk). The demands are different. I think we should look at 3 finger vs. 4 finger techniques as choices instead of ultimatums. The one pet peeve I have about people talking about 3 finger technique is that they belittle it as a "lack of technique".

I think this whole discussion could be useful if it got us all to think about being more strategic with our fretting hand, instead of arguing about what is considered "right" or "proper".

[monk]

Hello All,
I haven't been around for awhile. Just checking in. Nine years on and still talking about this. Wow!

[christianm77]

Half assed left hand Stochelo

[christianm77]

Anyway the reason why I picked out the Stochelo vid as it is indeed at circa 320 BPM. (Actually more like 330)

Also I forgot to mention Steve Morse who is a master of cross string picking, but again AFAIK his fastest licks are not based on that.

Again I'm not terribly interested in scalar shred runs or anything. The upper ceiling of someone who plays language and lines as opposed to mechanically optimised licks is always going to lower. The combination of scales, leaps and arpeggios will always present a greater challenge, but that's where the actual music is to me.

In general very fast playing is usually based on things that work well mechanically with the player's technique, often intuitively.

Even in Holdsworth's case, a lot his shreddy playing is based on 3 nps stretch patterns with string skipping. He had a million ways to use this basic pattern, but alternate picking these combinations would have been actually much more challenging, which is probably why you don't hear it done.

[christianm77]

Beautiful playing man.

[Irez87]

yes, Chris77, teach more guitar players how to shift fer once.

Position playing is great, CAGED has a ton of benefits, but shifting is also incredibly important.

Too many people try to stick everything into one position.

Here's a line from Mike Allemana, the guitarist who played the recorded etudes for Greg Fishman's Jazz Guitar Etudes

"For example, position shifting is crucial in executing the (saxophone) lines of this book... One way that a student can learn about fingering is to watch great guitarists improvise. For example, Wes Montgomery had a very interesting approach, using mostly the first three fingers of his left hand, rarely using the pinky."

Barry Greene told me that he is more of a positional player, but even he shifts around. Even Joe Pass shifts around to create interest and range in his lines. Other wise, it just sounds like a bunch of sameness.

I think Cannonball sounded great because his time was ridiculous and his lines were incredibly "rangey".

Another example, Ron Eschete. He's a positional player as well. However, he told me that he's sick of players who only play in one area of the neck for solos. He likes to hear the whole range of the guitar in an improvisation. A larger shape and arch, if you will.

Once again, I only said that this conversation should really be about being more strategic with how we approach the fingerboard. I think some people got offended because they missed my point.

[matt.guitarteacher]

yes, Chris77, teach more guitar players how to shift fer once.

Position playing is great, CAGED has a ton of benefits, but shifting is also incredibly important.

Too many people try to stick everything into one position.

Here's a line from Mike Allemana, the guitarist who played the recorded etudes for Greg Fishman's Jazz Guitar Etudes

"For example, position shifting is crucial in executing the (saxophone) lines of this book... One way that a student can learn about fingering is to watch great guitarists improvise. For example, Wes Montgomery had a very interesting approach, using mostly the first three fingers of his left hand, rarely using the pinky."

Barry Greene told me that he is more of a positional player, but even he shifts around. Even Joe Pass shifts around to create interest and range in his lines. Other wise, it just sounds like a bunch of sameness.

I think Cannonball sounded great because his time was ridiculous and his lines were incredibly "rangey".

Another example, Ron Eschete. He's a positional player as well. However, he told me that he's sick of players who only play in one area of the neck for solos. He likes to hear the whole range of the guitar in an improvisation. A larger shape and arch, if you will.

Once again, I only said that this conversation should really be about being more strategic with how we approach the fingerboard. I think some people got offended because they missed my point.

I'm struck by how many self-described position players shift like crazy. Reg has always talked about his playing in this self depricating way, like he's a boring "position player", but he shifts more than anyone.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I think there is always an assumption of lost opportunity, in choosing "the wrong way" or what may eventually BE the wrong way for you in the end. If you spend too much time chasing after one thing , what's the cost of all that time that could've been spent pursuing one thing well?

I now think that this fear is completely overblown. Hal Galper made a statement that kind of summed up what has become my gut feeling about learning things like this. He said, "All learning is global". If you work on 3-finger playing (or 2-finger) for a time, the end result may be that you "magically" achieve improved results in 4-finger playing as well. The mind doesn't work only in the linear, analytical way that we thing it does.

I think the takeaway might be that not only is it OK to explore other ways without hindering your "real way" but also that the "lost time" and opportunity cost fear may be a non-issue as well.

I feel like much of this discussion is based in the fear of choosing "the wrong way".

[christianm77]

I'm struck by how many self-described position players shift like crazy. Reg has always talked about his playing in this self depricating way, like he's a boring "position player", but he shifts more than anyone.

I have trouble aligning Reg the poster with Reg the player sometimes. He's just such a trad, goove based post-bop cat, and yet the way he talks in this sort of aphoristic algebra that I half understand...

I think (sorry Reg) the boomer generation just learned more practically and experientially because there were just more gigs. The pedagogy and theory was never meant to cover that material. I think that's what Reg means by 'technical skills' and 'vanilla stuff' but I'm not sure....

And that's why I suspect Gary Burton doesn't cover chord tones in his video. You're meant to know that stuff backwards by the time you get to his teaching.

[mr. beaumont]

I always got the impression that Reg learned how to play, and later, learned the "school" names for all the stuff he already knew.

I understand about a third of what he says, but I always learn something good from his posts. It's nice to hear from a guy who truly learned all that stuff and can actually get to the "forget that shit and play" part of the quote that people love to throw around.

[matt.guitarteacher]

I have trouble aligning Reg the poster with Reg the player sometimes. He's just such a trad, goove based post-bop cat, and yet the way he talks in this sort of aphoristic algebra that I half understand...

I think (sorry Reg) the boomer generation just learned more practically and experientially because there were just more gigs. The pedagogy and theory was never meant to cover that material. I think that's what Reg means by 'technical skills' and 'vanilla stuff' but I'm not sure....

And that's why I suspect Gary Burton doesn't cover chord tones in his video. You're meant to know that stuff backwards by the time you get to his teaching.

After several years, I honestly believe that Reg has a harder time understanding what other players don't see/understand etc., because the approach he adopted early on toward fretboard is so logical. When things start to read as being algebraic/analytical/theoretical to your eyes, understand that HE'S mostly coming from a very PHYSICAL/spacial/kinesthetic understanding of these things, with the guitar fretboard as the sliderule.

The theoretical understanding is the BYPRODUCT of his PHYSICAL understanding much more than it is the reference point for designing the physical part. I've come to think that the rest of us mostly do it backwards. The repeating pattern of the fretboard is mostly a drawback with traditional approaches. His way utilizes the strengths more and diminishes the drawbacks.

Anyway, I never really understood his relationships/references thing until I actually started playing it. It really is mostly a kinesthetic understanding which eventually yields the framework from which you can approach broader analytical and theoretical associations.

[MarkRhodes]

After several years, I honestly believe that Reg has a harder time understanding what other players don't see/understand etc., because the approach he adopted early on toward fretboard so logical. When things start to read as being algebraic/analytical/theoretical to your reading, understand that HE'S mostly coming from a very PHYSICAL/spacial/kinesthetic understanding of these things, with the guitar fretboard as the sliderule.

I think there's a lot to that. Reg has always stressed that point A is to know the fingerboard so it is a 12-fret grid that repeats and you know where everything is within that grid all the time. This point A, which is 'the given' for him, is something most people never get to (at least to the extent that he does.)

Curiously, the only person I've heard describe the fretboard as a slide rule is Carol Kaye. Very different, though. Doesn't teach positions at all that I know of. But she will say things like "always think of a minor chord as a ii chord to play on." So if you're playing "Summertime" in Am, think of G, as Am is the ii of G. I don't know if anyone OTHER than her thinks of it this way. ;o) But she knows the guitar (and bass) every which a way.

And now for something completely different: She once told me that in her first lesson with Horace Hatchett (famed guitar teacher), when she was 14 or so, he taught her "Tea For Two" and "Blue Skies." In short order, he hired her to teach beginners. (That's the only way she could keep taking lessons, as she couldn't afford them otherwise.) I wonder how many people she's taught over the decades who have gigged professionally.

[christianm77]

After several years, I honestly believe that Reg has a harder time understanding what other players don't see/understand etc., because the approach he adopted early on toward fretboard so logical. When things start to read as being algebraic/analytical/theoretical to your reading, understand that HE'S mostly coming from a very PHYSICAL/spacial/kinesthetic understanding of these things, with the guitar fretboard as the sliderule.

The theoretical understanding of all of it is the BYPRODUCT of the PHYSICAL understanding more than it is the reference point for laying out physical understanding. I've come to think that the rest of this mostly do it backwards. the repeating pattern of the fretboard is mostly a drawback with traditional approaches. His way utilizes the strengths more and diminishes the drawbacks.

Anyway, I never really understood his relationships/references thing until I actually started playing yet. It really is kinesthetic understanding which eventually yields the framework from which approach broader analytical and theoretical associations.

I really must sit down and work out what he's talking about at some point.

[mr. beaumont]

But she will say things like "always think of a minor chord as a ii chord to play on." So if you're playing "Summertime" in Am, think of G, as Am is the ii of G. I don't know if anyone OTHER than her thinks of it this way. ;o).

Yeah, it sounds cray-cray to me...that song is SOOOO "in minor."

BUT...If I hear that chord as an Am6, tonic minor chord...are there any different notes that are gonna sound good from my analysis versus Carol's? Not really...

[christianm77]

Yeah, it sounds cray-cray to me...that song is SOOOO "in minor."

BUT...If I hear that chord as an Am6, tonic minor chord...are there any different notes that are gonna sound good from my analysis versus Carol's? Not really...

Well...... that’s a whole endless thread on its own

[mr. beaumont]

Well...... that’s a whole endless thread on its own

I suppose it is...the combinations might change, but I maintain the note choices are pretty simple...over any chord, notes have three possibilities to me:

1. In the damn chord, of course it sounds fine
2. Not in the chord but it can be an extension, feel free to hang on it
3. Not off limits but be careful with it.

That's it.

[MarkRhodes]

Yeah, it sounds cray-cray to me...that song is SOOOO "in minor."

BUT...If I hear that chord as an Am6, tonic minor chord...are there any different notes that are gonna sound good from my analysis versus Carol's? Not really...

O, yes, she would agree that it's a minor key song. But Am is the ii of G. Most think of it as the vi of C, which it also is. The one different note would be F# (in G) for F (in C).