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Should have named the Title differently.
"Using mostly 3 fingers to imitate Old School Players old school Beboppers etc."
Using< 3 fingered technique> - kind of no such thing exactly.
Using 8 fingered Piano Technique to emulate Bud Powell ...
Oscar Peterson
Rachmaninoff
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02-23-2019 02:27 PM
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Just fed up of repeating myself when people start talking about not using the pinky... It's just not that important. Second order thing, really.
Originally Posted by princeplanet
Wot? Did I say something obvious? Or just plain stoopid? Hmmm, let me just go back and read all 530 posts again just to be sure ....
How do you fret notes, how do you pronate your hand?
If one think George Benson plays like Adam Rogers because he uses the fourth finger sometimes, essentially missing everything that's going on.
There's a parallel with pick technique. People say 'do a downstroke here and an upstroke here.'
NO, that's second order. Physical mechanics govern what upstroke and downstroke combinations work naturally. Rest stroke pickers don't tend to upsweep for instance, unless they change hand position.
Same with whether or not you favour the pinky. Not all players use it, but most do to one extent or the other. Doesn't mean they use it 25% of the time, with full independence, like Adam Rogers, say.
More telling is - are you a position player or a shifter?
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I think the equivelant might be whether or not you pass the thumb in scale playing. Originally Posted by Robertkoa
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Mind your own business! Originally Posted by christianm77
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Christian, allow me to condense what seems to be your point. Why call something a technique when it’s simply how one person feels most comfortable playing something? Feel free to publicly humiliate me if I misinterpreted your point.
Personally, I use my pinky nearly as frequently as my other fingers simply because it makes sense to me and isn’t particularly difficult since I’ve always done that. And I use my thumb at times as well!
never thought about it, I just did it. Technique? No. Style or habit? 
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I WILL DESTROY YOU WITH FACTS AND LOGIC!!!!!! Originally Posted by snoskier63
Christian, allow me to condense what seems to be your point. Why call something a technique when it’s simply how one person feels most comfortable playing something? Feel free to publicly humiliate me if I misinterpreted your point.
Personally, I use my pinky nearly as frequently as my other fingers simply because it makes sense to me and isn’t particularly difficult since I’ve always done that. And I use my thumb at times as well! never thought about it, I just did it. Technique? No. Style or habit?
But before I do that, that's not it.... I don't honestly care about your pinky. Do what you like with it, sweetie. ;-) If what you are doing works for you, great, but listen to your body as soon as anything feels a bit wrong (see the Kurt quote below)
The positioning of the hand is a basic issue in teaching. I come across it all the time, both with beginners and advanced students. So what advice to give? In general I would say, tend towards the classical approach. Square off the left hand to the neck, develop the use of the pinky etc, just because if in doubt, teach classical.
(Then they have to play a C major chord.)
Many taught guitarists are very 'down' on the other self-taught way of playing which is a very slanted left hand wrt to the neck, and shifting to play notes rather than stretching... That includes the players that do it who feel they are doing it wrong.
Some of these players are exclusively three fingered - like Dave Cliff, Peter Bernstein and Jim Mullen (three of the best players I know) and others, like Pat Metheny and Jimmy Raney shift a lot, pronate the hand but also use the pinky as well...
So anyway, rather than being prescriptive about technique 'this is correct, this is incorrect' - it's good to observe players and make conclusions. I think the way the players above, in addition to Benson etc, play physically is worth studying even when they themselves exhibit typical humility about their technique. I know many players who just imitate the notes, and feel that how they play is 'wrong technique.' Some people say that classical technique is 'more healthy' than this approach - slanty hand, shifting a lot rather than stretching. This is in fact wrong.
Personal experience - playing Bach with a classical lefthand but poor posture lead to wrist problems, due to the collapsed carpal tunnel. Thumb over won't hurt you (at least in this way) because the carpal tunnel is always straight.
Well known players affected with these sorts of conditions Yngwie Malmsteen, Kurt Rosenwinkel and (I believe) Johnny Greenwood. Kurt (a pronated left hand player incidentally) said of his experience:
"At a certain point in my life when I was really practicing all the time and really shredding a lot to get to the next level, my elbow started to have some pain. It forced me to take a real hard look at the mechanics of my playing and identify reasons why I was doing something wrong. It’s simply a symptom of doing something wrong.
It turned out to be a good thing, because I realized if you are playing single lines, you never have to stretch your fingers. So I developed a technique for myself where you can play all up and down the neck without having to stretch out your fingers the way guitarists do. One thing I do know is if you are experiencing any pain in your hands, you should never play through the pain because that could cause some serious damage."
Other (perhaps subjective) aspects of the technique are - more vocality to the sound of the lines, more swing & groove, more 'juiciness' to the notes. Objectively, it's easier to mute and bend notes with the hand in this position.
So, where am I going with this is whether or not you use the pinky is pretty superficial. Also, that there are dangers in using the pinky to stretch if your technique is not really classical and schooled, and that actually the '3 finger' (by which I mean pronated, shifting, not stretching technique) constitutes instead of bad practice, an alternative form of technique that we observe in some of the greatest players and, what's more is pretty healthy. There's not even an agreed name for it FFS - thumb over, grab n whack, three fingered - no-one has agreed....
In fact, you could say that classical technique seeks to conquer the anatomy of the left hand, while 'grab n whack' works with it. Think about the anatomy of the tendons and the carpal tunnel and the fact that the 1st and 2nd fingers are our main manipulators while the 3rd and 4th work together as a power grip.
Anyway for those that toiled through that, I've started studying for a Masters in Music Education, this topic's rather interesting to me, so might be good to research, and now I have my access to the academic literature all set up, maybe I'll dip into it and see what research is being done - if any - in this area.Last edited by christianm77; 02-24-2019 at 03:25 PM.
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I think the benefit of playing primarily with three fingers is real. Best tone, a more relaxed hand and faster lines,..., yes I said that, faster lines. Slower scales but faster lines. I I am forcing myself to three finger technique, using the pinky for chromatisms and line endings. When you play with three fingers you always have a way for continuing the line, with four fingers the line stops when you use the pinky.
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Well, honey, my point wasn’t to stress that I use my pinky because I think it’s the right thing to do. I actually don’t think about it at all and simply do what comes naturally to me and what works best for me, which was my point and what I thought yours was as well. Regardless, keep enlightening us with your masters level knowledge and maybe we can all finish with a degree...and play better jazz in the process.
I have a lot of work to do to play better jazz, so excuse me while I get back to work.
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No need to critique or discredit anything you are doing, sweet cheeks. If it works, it works, the only potential issue is whether or not it’s physically healthy. Originally Posted by snoskier63
Well, honey, my point wasn’t to stress that I use my pinky because I think it’s the right thing to do. I actually don’t think about it at all and simply do what comes naturally to me and what works best for me, which was my point and what I thought yours was as well. Regardless, keep enlightening us with your masters level knowledge and maybe we can all finish with a degree...and play better jazz in the process.
I have a lot of work to do to play better jazz, so excuse me while I get back to work.
While I would be interested to see how you play, in general there’s enough out there to form an opinion.
Mentioning the fact I’ve started (started, mind) a postgrad is not an attempt to ‘flex’ but to point out I now have a legitimate reason to dig into this stuff beyond blathering on the internet.
Oh dear.
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Another point that occurred to me reading snoskiers comments is that a lot of guitar players won’t really be interested in the ins and outs of these questions, find it a bit academic, whereas I find myself getting deep into this stuff.... sure, I’m sure if you asked Jim Mullen about his technique he wouldn’t be able to tell you much, and would probably mostly be humble about it....
The fact that you might not be interested in digging into these questions doesn’t mean they are not worth digging into. I feel we lack a good established model of best practice for non classical guitar, and while I don’t think it’s the best idea to standardise everything, I think it’s worth to me as a teacher to understand this stuff on a deep level and perhaps try and tie together some of the strands a little.
Btw my initial quick search through the literature hasn’t thrown up much, but I would be surprised if no one has dug into this. The most relevant looking article was actually from a medical journal.
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Another point (personal) on three finger technique. Four fingers forces you into position playing, but three forces you into horizontal playing.
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Yeah that’s an interesting one. Lage Lund has this thing about how you should use finger 4 only for direction changes. Originally Posted by sjl
What’s interesting about that is he has a very ‘legit’ left hand.
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Yeah I noticed that too .... Originally Posted by sjl
(I'm a largely 3 finger player too)
I just watched myself playing the head of Donna Lee slowly
and I seem to do a fair number of one fret position shifts
, as well as some of the normal expected bigger position shifts
to me It feels right and sounds right that way
others can and should do stuff they way that's right for them
but as Christiam says , play your stuff in the most relaxed way for YOU
I contend that you will be faster , smoother , have a better groove,
better tone and get less hand issues that way
carry on Mr Christian
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Christian, the good news is you could make a dissertation pretty quickly by compiling a weeks worth of your posts
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Yeah the thought crossed my mind... I'm generating a lot of text here, might as well use it to some actual goal IRL lol. Originally Posted by joe2758
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well .. yes and no. Originally Posted by sjl
I consider position playing as a 'technical reference' - the most imposrtant advantage of this is technical stability and precision - especially with long jumps over the neck.
that it is one shifts his wrist up and down the neck from position to position... at an advanced technical level it does not limit horizontal movement at all.
Basically you can play even with one finger in positions))))
But.. if one refers to positions as some sort of fretboard organization then I believe there can be the opposite tendency... this kind of position player will tend to play with four fingers.
(though in my opinion one usually quickly overcomes this limitation.. this is more of a beginner reference thing)
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Yeah I think that’s a good point.
Btw I don’t think playing with a non pronated left hand means you can’t shift, but playing with a heavily pronated left hand where it’s difficult to stretch doesn’t half encourage one to use them :-)
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I used to play differently on different instruments... but today I tend to play more and more similarily... becasue the lutes -whcich are most demanding as they respond to every little nuance - they just overcome...
If I change technique crucially when I switch to electric or steel string I feel when I come back that it destroys my contact with lute...
I managed to develope some sort of compromise... this is where this idea of being in position but playing horizothally originally developed in my practice.. I wanted to keep some idiomatic steel jazz/blues things but did not want to dramatically change hand position...
Byt the way.. we often refer to classical guitarists as having very good left hand.... at lest healthy)) well... most of them I know have pretty bad one actually... especially that 'elbow thing' ... it was only my lute teacher who made me 'drop down' the left hand elbow....
His idea was that it is the first thing you should get used to: he elbow hangs down like a pendilum... then you try to make it one smoothe natural curved line with the wrist... then you seek for a proper instrument neck angle for yourself... I think it comes much from Pat O'Brien techniques...
This pendilum thing really takes away lost of problems at the beginnig.. and it is interesting that due to natural hand position most rock/jazz players will have it naturally like this))) but they will have a different instrument angle...
whereas classical players as beginners seem often to raise up the neck and raise the elbow together with it...
as a result they do not really have much of advantage in wrist position for pinky and also get stifness in back, hand and shoulder.
If you look carefully many classical players can use pinky thanks to their personal wrist anatomy not because of very correct hand position.
(By the way Pat was very versatile person and he knew very well and described also bluegrass and blues techniques as very efficient for the style)
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Jonah did Pat O'Brien publish anything on this academically?
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he taught only orally. Most of his works were spread through his teaching students (something like Barry Harris?)... Originally Posted by christianm77
Now and then I see in master classes of many players the traces of his approaches.
(Another vast topic for him was nervousness and self control on stage and during records)
Also formally he could not cure people as he did not have some MD license, so he was never openly advertised.
But I personally heard from a few players (one was top world one) how he saved their hands and careers when doctors could not help.
I personally found that his abduction exercises and the whole conception moved my left hand on another level... at least for lutes.
After his death lute society of America issued at least 3 magazines completely dedicated to his work. One of this issues is his long physiology lesson published from tapes where he in discussion form goes in all the details of his hand physiology conceptions, describes his most important exercises etc. and many other things and observations, some of which are extremely interesting, concerning kinesthetic memory, nature of virtuosity etc.(he speaks with bluegrass player by the way, though lutist too).
I would love to share but as LSA lacks funds and annual membership gives access to all their magazines archives from 60s I just can encourage people to subscribe (usd55 is not that much, and there is plenty if other stuff as well )
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Originally Posted by christianm77
My initial post was never intended to imply that this is not a worthwhile topic, but was simply to inject a little humor into the mix. My subsequent post was an attempt to clarify what I thought you were saying with some of your posts as some among us were apparently on a different page from you. Since then I’ve learned one thing... don’t do that. Originally Posted by christianm77
My reality, and then I’ll shut up, is that I care very much about technique and I enjoy reading your posts and the posts of many others because I always learn something I didn’t know and sometimes never even considered. This is actually a great example of that. I realize Django had a limited number of fingers to play with, and he made it work very well. That said, I never considered that there was such a thing as a three finger technique because I just use whatever fingers are available to do the job in the most efficient and effective manner possible. I’m sure that means at times I play primarily with two, three, or four fingers. I never, however, set out to limit or maximize the number of fingers I use. I simply use as many or as few as I need at a given time to get the best possible results. For me that usually has me using all of my fingers. For me to express that is nothing more nor less than an attempt at expressing an opinion which may or may not generate a discussion, and which in no way attempts or intends to discredit anyone else’s opinion. On a side note, of interst to this thread may be Jimmy Bruno’s suggestion to me through his online workshop that I limit my horizontal playing as it can potentially create tonal differences that may not be optimal. I’m sure it’s not as simple as that and as one of my all time favorite guitarists I would love to sit and pick Jimmy’s brain for days regarding jazz guitar, but unfortunately, I don’t see that happening any time soon.
Regarding the physically healthy part, I couldn’t agree more. On your side of the pond I am what’s known as a physiotherapist. Over the years I have worked with some very accomplished classical and jazz musicians due to repetitive stress issues relating to improper posture of their choosing, or because of the genetic pool they were born into. That being the case, it is natural that I try to play in a way that minimizes undo stress and strain on my body, and as a formal educator I’m glad that matters to you as well.
Finally, I don’t know what your opinion is regarding how you think I play, and it really doesn’t matter. I will remove all doubt and state that you are a much better player than I am. That being the case I play well enough for an occasional open mic night. I have yet to receive any death threats, but my playing days are not over and hopefully will not be for quite some time, so I’m not out of the woods yet.
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Yeah, thanks for this. Originally Posted by snoskier63
My initial post was never intended to imply that this is not a worthwhile topic, but was simply to inject a little humor into the mix. My subsequent post was an attempt to clarify what I thought you were saying with some of your posts as some among us were apparently on a different page from you. Since then I’ve learned one thing... don’t do that.
My reality, and then I’ll shut up, is that I care very much about technique and I enjoy reading your posts and the posts of many others because I always learn something I didn’t know and sometimes never even considered. This is actually a great example of that. I realize Django had a limited number of fingers to play with, and he made it work very well. That said, I never considered that there was such a thing as a three finger technique because I just use whatever fingers are available to do the job in the most efficient and effective manner possible. I’m sure that means at times I play primarily with two, three, or four fingers. I never, however, set out to limit or maximize the number of fingers I use. I simply use as many or as few as I need at a given time to get the best possible results. For me that usually has me using all of my fingers. For me to express that is nothing more nor less than an attempt at expressing an opinion which may or may not generate a discussion, and which in no way attempts or intends to discredit anyone else’s opinion. On a side note, of interst to this thread may be Jimmy Bruno’s suggestion to me through his online workshop that I limit my horizontal playing as it can potentially create tonal differences that may not be optimal. I’m sure it’s not as simple as that and as one of my all time favorite guitarists I would love to sit and pick Jimmy’s brain for days regarding jazz guitar, but unfortunately, I don’t see that happening any time soon.
Regarding the physically healthy part, I couldn’t agree more. On your side of the pond I am what’s known as a physiotherapist. Over the years I have worked with some very accomplished classical and jazz musicians due to repetitive stress issues relating to improper posture of their choosing, or because of the genetic pool they were born into. That being the case, it is natural that I try to play in a way that minimizes undo stress and strain on my body, and as a formal educator I’m glad that matters to you as well.
Finally, I don’t know what your opinion is regarding how you think I play, and it really doesn’t matter. I will remove all doubt and state that you are a much better player than I am. That being the case I play well enough for an occasional open mic night. I have yet to receive any death threats, but my playing days are not over and hopefully will not be for quite some time, so I’m not out of the woods yet.
One related issue I’ve come across is whether or not a student practices using consistent fingering. That’s the main thing that’s important to me I’d say along with making sure the wrist is straight.
Some students get this idea right away, while others seem to use different fingers every time and you have to tell them exactly what to do and get them to practice it super slow.
In the former case it’s simply a matter of making a suggestion where their initial fingering might not be efficient. You can work with the student in terms of what their body seems to want to do naturally and adapt it using one’s knowledge to overcome problems.
Consistent fingerings of course could be more reliant on the strong fingers, or positional, or something else. I do not believe it’s very natural to play in position but the amount of shifting etc varies from player to player.
I also see a fair amount of bad technique that’s clearly been influenced by the idea of thumb behind classical style posture.
I wouldn’t take what I said personally, I meant I would always be professionally interested to see what you do physically as I would with any player.
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Originally Posted by Tal_175
Originally Posted by christianm77
Originally Posted by christianm77
First of all I have to be honest here - not trying to be difficult .
But as I said earlier - there is no such thing as '3 finger technique' .
You have not defined it.
All the so called 'advantages' or most of them break down for those of us who have put in 40,000 hours or more.
So here's why it's a limited technique -
Fusion Playing ...
Wide intervals mixed into lines .
Counterpoint , polyphonic playing.
Playing Legato and or actually sounding like a Saxophone.
Playing long lines in 8th notes and 16th notes with swing .
Playing 32nd notes in time .
Playing Arpeggios including simple ones like
1 b3 5 9 vertically then moving it around .
A] For every Player like Benson or Jesse Von Ruller - I have no idea if you call him a 3 finger Player because you haven't defined it and it doesn't affect what I do but IF you are talking about Modern Guitar Playing - none of the Modern Jazz Players ( who are my contemporaries technically ) ..are 3 finger players [ Marino , Hekselman , Kriesberg, Lage Lund,Julian Lage etc etc etc
There is probably a 10 to 1 ratio of people who embrace the Pinky rather than avoid it - and there's a reason for that.
Even Rock Shredders 10 to 1 and there's a reason for that .
Reaching 3 fingers to a 4 fret span is a limited technique .
And earlier in this thread you upvoted that .
Now IF you are going to stretch your definition to say that Peter Farrel is a 3 fingered technique Player - he does not stretch 3 fingers over 4 frets - nor do I.
So then we ALL use 3 fingered technique if Farrel does.
And the term is meaningless.
Stretching 3 fingers to cover 4 frets is a limited technique and cannot be maintained in 'time' - the Player will trip themselves up mentally , then physically .
It's far more comprehensive to just train all 4 ...like almost all Modern High Level Players do...
As soon as you Poll Guitarists who really have chops (time, fluidity, intervallic freedom and SWING) and ask them about restricting the Pinky or strongly favoring the first 3 fingers - they'll think 'why would I do that ?
And possibly poitely say 'whatever works '.
OK - as soon as there is a 4 fret span laterally - the pinky comes into play. See that ?
Now IF you are going to call Farrel a' 3 fingered Player ' then fine .
I am too and so are we all and you are just talking about variations in left hand and the definition of 3 fingered technique is so 'Vast ' lol I gave you a positive term that it includes everyone.
Ironically- using a three fingers to cover a 4 fret span is not that bad physically - it's mentally where it will break down ESPECIALLY on long lines in 16ths and 8ths in locked time whether 'Swing ' or Classical time , because we have a problem where sometimes 3 fingers are 3 frets sometimes there are 4 ...too many exceptions ...guy trips .
So I suggest you poll advanced Players who already have their chops and time not a work in progress.
But in reality it's a limited technique which modern players don't espouse because - it's a limited technique.
Same with Benson- I don't know how you call him a 3 fingered Player - but most people who get to 80 or 90% of Benson NEED all 4 fingers On Demand to do it.
So having the 'Pinky ready On Demand' versus favoring the first 3 is the break point.
Poll some people who have advanced chops - they'll say why would I restrict the Pinky? in any way ?"
"3 fingered technique Players are not restricting the Pinky in any way , Robert "
OK then ...never mind we are all 3 fingered Players ...Last edited by Robertkoa; 02-26-2019 at 01:10 PM.
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Look at the pronation of Farrell's hand, the position of thumb - behind the neck but somewhat back from classical position, the way his pinky flaps around and the tendency to shift. Actually he is pretty close to the way I play.
Now watch carefully, is PF using the pinky on even footing with the other fingers? No. He's not using it 25% of the time.
Compare to Adam Rogers on one extreme and Jim Mullen on the other. AR actually uses the pinky to position shift.
Different right? PF is sort of in between, but still pretty pronated.
Left hand technique is a spectrum. Most players pronate, but some, such as Ben Monder and AR, don't.
You may as well use your pinky - I don't think any player never uses it. The point is that pronating your hand makes it less available anyway, and harder to stretch.
Not sure what's so complicated about that concept, TBH. I'm gonna do a quick video.
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