Three Finger Guitar Technique

**Tal_175** · 02-13-2019, 02:04 PM

Originally Posted by christianm77

Funny what people worry about

I think it’s incorrect to imagine the pinky is a muscle that you exercise. Whether or not you can reliably use your pinky has much more to do with left hand alignment, and actuating the right joints.

But in aligning the left hand ‘correctly’ (ie no pronation) you trade off a few of other things such as the reach of the third finger and the ability to pop the thumb over the top of the neck.
But obviously this is a better position for Polyphonic fingerings, stretch chords and holdsworth style legato.

Most players sit somewhere on a spectrum between the two extremes but I feel optimal technique is basically one or the other....

We all pronate our hand to various degrees even in classical playing. For instance I was taught to fret a C major scale on the B and E strings 1 3 0 1 3.... in fact some teachers suggest 1 4 0 1 4. Look what your hand does in each case.... otoh can one cleanly play a C major open chord without pronating?

So the fingers I don’t think is as important as the stance of the left hand. Stuff like what fingerings you use come naturally from that basis. A study of this axis of movement of the left hand I think is really useful for making informed decisions about fret hand technique.

Lastly I have noticed that while many players are happy to copy equipment in order to imitate a player, fewer seem happy to copy what a player is doing physically. I think the main reason for that is dogmatic teaching.

I agree with most of what you're saying (although I do think muscles that control individual fingers require use/practice to maintain strength and agility which can be done by separate practice like Lobomov said).
There are two main left hand techniques IMO (two extremes you mention).
Classical: Thumb behind the neck and function like a dancers feet (always counter balance movements of other fingers), gap between the pad of the index finger (first joint) and lower part of the neck, upper arm straight with guitar neck pointing up.
Blues/rock: Thump over neck, index pad resting on the neck, upper arm slightly rotated to enable middle and ring finger reach, neck can be positioned relatively straight.

I've made switches between these techniques over the years classical to blues back to classical. So 3 finger system would ideally require complete switch in all the elements of LH because it's all one system. I think you alluded to that as well.
It's not that hard to do, as I have used both techniques in the past. May be sometime down the line.

**AndyV** · 02-14-2019, 02:30 PM

Since my son accidentally closed the car door on my left hand about 7 years ago, breaking and dislocating my pinky, I've been a mostly 3 finger guitarist. I really miss the pinky for chords but not so much for single note stuff.

**Robertkoa** · 02-18-2019, 11:07 AM

Regardless of all the different ideas ...

I get the idea of using a limited technique

like using just thumb for picking to prevent myself from using speed and rhythmic figures picking with pick - and force myself to play slower >singable < melodies ...in improv.

However - I should be able to hold back and do that with a pick anyway...

And I DEFINITELY will not have altered or different fingerings .

Playing with 3 fingers of fret hand - the 'Wrong' three fingers is something I have done - just playing almost anything - even nonsense notes without index finger - however they need to be in Rhythm - it's a physical exercise to strengthen :
1] Muscles tendons, whatever, of the weaker fingers including Finger A and Pinky .

2] Perhaps MORE importantly it also strengthens the mind body connection to this part of the hand ( lowered lag time to hit imagined note or finish the line or musical figure ).

Don't take this seriously - just 5 to 15 minutes a day - a little more if you want - it makes a difference very quickly in your regular playing.
Do NOT work out any fingerings for this - it is just a physical exercise ...relax when your hand or forearm burns a little - use less force ...gradually you and your muscles will not panic.

Play anything this is not serious just a light physical workout.

Results are very quick -when you go back to 4 fingers playing -* less than a week you will notice that your fingers feel more 'alike ' , uniform etc.

*I am not suggesting you play 3 fingered all week ...just emphasizing that benefits are quick from such a silly exercise.

I personally do not agree with ANY alternate fingerings for me - and playing across strings and wide intervals - there is zero reason for me to use 3 fingers .
But I just mean for myself - that way I am 100% correct lol.

However - advanced Players - sure if using three fingers SOMETIMES makes you slur and play cooler stuff or it might cause you to play more "Raw" Blues etc.. sure why not?..I can imagine '3 finger mode ' might cause straight Jazzers to dumb down a little and play simpler Blues .. and forget scales , and complex lines and Arps.

[ Although I think/ see how attitude, sharp Rhythms and a little more Vibrato can cause straight Jazz , and Bebop licks to be more Raw sounding, my default kind of ]

For me - life is too short for alternate fingerings personally.

**christianm77** · 02-18-2019, 11:31 AM

'Three fingered' technique isn't limited though - different yes...

In some ways four finger technique is limited - weaker tone, problems with applying vibrato and note bends, issues with using the pinky effectively for slurring (a lot of guitarists suffer from that), harder to stretch with the third finger, thumb fretting more difficult, left hand muting more difficult.

Of course there's no law saying you can't change left hand stance according to the needs of the music.

I can say from personal experience Peter has pretty savage double time chops! I think he holds back on gigs a long way...

**whiskey02** · 02-18-2019, 12:12 PM

I'm surprised at this point that there's no 43 page thread about people struggling to replicate "Metheny picking".
As a fan of jazz guitar I'm very happy that not everyone plays with 3 fingers or exclusively with 4. I'm glad some people use a pick, some fingers and some thumb, some a unique blend of all options. I'm glad that some players use a crystal clean tone and some gritty edge of tube breakup and everything in between. I'm glad Tal played giant chords with his thumb over the neck, as I am that John Stowell holds his guitar at his Adam's apple level to play Bill Evan style voicings. It would be a sad small world of guitar if no one found a uniquely personal way of expressing themselves and strictly followed a narrow path of "acceptable" technical parameters to make music. If everybody did the exact same things, there'd be little reason to listen to different players.

**Robertkoa** · 02-18-2019, 02:34 PM

@Christian

3 fingered technique is limited just like
mostly 2 fingered technique like Django used is a limitation or a handicap which he extremely overcompensated for.

You may be able to get a Student to an intermediate level faster or even Bernstein's medium advanced level with 3 fingered technique - I get that.

But Arps especially picked legato Arps like I do, and Kriesberg and Adam Rogers do especially with wide intervals a 10th or more between bottom and top notes won't happen with 3 fingers ...

That's probably musically more important than playing Quadruple time.

If you ask Kriesberg about 3 fingers - probably get the diplomatic answer - 'whatever works '.

If you ask him if HE could work out new 3 fingers fingerings for scales - ' sure , but why ?'

If you ask him IF he could do the legato picked Arpeggios with 3 fingers - he'd say 'most of them - no .'

When you get really good with the pick - the fingers can not be too far out of position especially for legato - someone might do some choppy approximation with 3 fingers - but not go there really.

But again , for common practice Jazz Guitar up to 1965 - we have Johnny Smith

lets say as one of the Top Guns - his single lines might be OK with 3 fingers -
but too much shuffling for the smooth Arps for 99.99% or more Players [ wild guess on my part ].Especially Arps with wide intervals stacked 4th Arps , or successive 7ths across strings , wide intervals in 8ths get really tricky with only 3 stops

>•Kind of like Violinists or Keyboard Players eliminating Pinky finger - you may get to intermediate quicker but never make it to the top tier .

Obviously - you don't need super chops to get to the top tier of Players -( I feel like I do though ) just talking technique here.

OK - but can you play that left handed ?

OK - but can you play that inverted and backwards ( Metheny might be able to after about 5 to 30 seconds )..lol.

OK - how about just 3 fingers ? Not as funny because there's a' hmmmmm not sure '.

So I respect that as a Teacher you are saying you can bypass a LOT of problems students trip up on by using / teaching 3 fingers or might possibly be able to do that- I get that and can't refute it ...I am open to the possibility that the 'ceiling' for 3 fingered single lines might be higher than I think ? Yes ....but it's still lower than 4 string Ceiling IMO.

**christianm77** · 02-18-2019, 04:15 PM

Originally Posted by Robertkoa

@Christian

3 fingered technique is limited just like
mostly 2 fingered technique like Django used is a limitation or a handicap which he extremely overcompensated for.

You may be able to get a Student to an intermediate level faster or even Bernstein's medium advanced level with 3 fingered technique - I get that.

But Arps especially picked legato Arps like I do, and Kriesberg and Adam Rogers do especially with wide intervals a 10th or more between bottom and top notes won't happen with 3 fingers ...

That's probably musically more important than playing Quadruple time.

If you ask Kriesberg about 3 fingers - probably get the diplomatic answer - 'whatever works '.

If you ask him if HE could work out new 3 fingers fingerings for scales - ' sure , but why ?'

If you ask him IF he could do the legato picked Arpeggios with 3 fingers - he'd say 'most of them - no .'

When you get really good with the pick - the fingers can not be too far out of position especially for legato - someone might do some choppy approximation with 3 fingers - but not go there really.

But again , for common practice Jazz Guitar up to 1965 - we have Johnny Smith

lets say as one of the Top Guns - his single lines might be OK with 3 fingers -
but too much shuffling for the smooth Arps for 99.99% or more Players [ wild guess on my part ].Especially Arps with wide intervals stacked 4th Arps , or successive 7ths across strings , wide intervals in 8ths get really tricky with only 3 stops

>•Kind of like Violinists or Keyboard Players eliminating Pinky finger - you may get to intermediate quicker but never make it to the top tier .

Obviously - you don't need super chops to get to the top tier of Players -( I feel like I do though ) just talking technique here.

OK - but can you play that left handed ?

OK - but can you play that inverted and backwards ( Metheny might be able to after about 5 to 30 seconds )..lol.

OK - how about just 3 fingers ? Not as funny because there's a' hmmmmm not sure '.

So I respect that as a Teacher you are saying you can bypass a LOT of problems students trip up on by using / teaching 3 fingers or might possibly be able to do that- I get that and can't refute it ...I am open to the possibility that the 'ceiling' for 3 fingered single lines might be higher than I think ? Yes ....but it's still lower than 4 string Ceiling IMO.

Let's park the whole polyphonic chords thing, because I think that's where classical left hand technique has a clear advantage.

So Django, extreme example - unsurprisingly a lot DR's fingerings work best with 2 fingers. Chromatic scales are a case in point... And his arpeggios, too. You can play them with conventional left hand, but they are actually way harder and won't sound as good. Even as relatively 4 fingered player I have found this.

Proper GJ technique is heavily 3-finger oriented cos it just doesn't really sound right if you do it with classical left hand (I think you'd run into similar problems with Wes's style, and so on...)

So you got to ask it, if DR's arp fingerings work best with 2 fingers and JK's intervallic arpeggios work best with a more 'legit' right hand. So why esteem one above the other? That's politics ;-)

I think if you pay any serious attention to individual players you find their physical approach as a player is part of what makes them them.

There is no one technique that is 'best' - some are more flexible, but all have drawbacks. That's life. You pays yer money and you takes yer choice. It is an artistic decision, and there's a lot of dogmatic teachers out there.

BTW AFAIK Violinists heavily preference the strong 3 fingers, and keyboard players use the 4th finger only for direction changes in runs. (Lage Lund uses a similar approach for arpeggio fingerings.))

**Robertkoa** · 02-18-2019, 09:20 PM

Seems like 3 fingered Players started that way playing whatever they played and didn't really upgrade as they evolved.

No Software Update/ Upgrade.

You could be the first educated Player who played with 4 fingers and consciously switched to 3.

Show me a 3 fingered Player who embodies all these benefits .

Barry Harris hits Guitarists on the knuckles with a wood pointer for playing his 8 note scales with 3 fingers. Be careful.

" 3 Fingers is for playing 'Waltz Time ' 3/8 not Bebop son ' . BAM !

So do you actually think people like McLaughlin, DiMeola , Holdsworth , Benson would benefit ( or would have )benefitted from switching to 3 fingers ???¿¿¿
Do you have any examples of these virtuoso 3 fingers Players

Hillary Hahn is a Historic Violin Virtuoso - she uses her pinky extensively .

All violinists must do so to play the Repertoire ....

**christianm77** · 02-19-2019, 03:32 AM

Robert, I think maybe you haven't read the rest of the thread (it is a long one) I don't mean to be dismissive, but a lot of these points come up again and again. We aren't talking about players never using their pinky, so the thread title is a little misleading. The fact that you mentioned Benson means that you aren't really clear on what is meant... Benson is practically the poster boy for this old school type of left hand approach.

What we are really talking about is players who play thumb over with a pronated left hand (which tends to make the pinky a little less accessible, but also increases the stretch of the third finger). Those players tend to favour although not always exclusively play with three fingers. The list of jazz players who did this is massive and discussed in depth above:

Also check out Miles Okazaki's thoughts on this type of technique, above.

Look at Hillary Hahn in the still thumbnail image to see how (as with all violinists) her left hand is pronated.

**christianm77** · 02-19-2019, 04:28 AM

Although here’s one good example: Wes

**christianm77** · 02-19-2019, 04:33 AM

Now look at Metheny’s left hand. While it’s not true he doesn't use his pinky (it’s also not true of Wes, but he uses it a bit more) he heavily favours fingers 1 2 3 - the pinky actually hangs back a ways from the fretboard when it's not being used. His left hand looks similar to Wes.

He's also a real shifter - he'd rather shift than stretch.

Now, compare to Adam Rogers’ much more legit left hand. AR's use of shifting is much less as well.

That’s the difference we’re talking about, right?

**christianm77** · 02-19-2019, 05:37 AM

Ulf BTW is an example of someone who still has their left hand pretty pronated, but has bit more equality in the use of the fingers.

**christianm77** · 02-19-2019, 05:44 AM

For PURE three fingered playing here's a couple of favourites from the UK

Jim Mullen:

And Dave Cliff:

any definition of virtuoso that omits Dave Cliff and Jim Mullen has no interest for me.

**paulkogut** · 02-19-2019, 09:24 AM

Originally Posted by christianm77

What we are really talking about is players who play thumb over with a pronated left hand (which tends to make the pinky a little less accessible, but also increases the stretch of the third finger). Those players tend to favour although not always exclusively play with three fingers. The list of jazz players who did this is massive and discussed in depth above:

Christian, thanks for the well researched posts. It exactly like you said above. The left hand approaches of Wes, Jimmy Rainey, Metheney, Benson, Bernstein, Mullen, Okazaki and others all share similarities, and nobody arrived there by accident or out of laziness. Folks that admire these players' sound may benefit from an in depth study of their technique

It should be pointed out that the '3-finger' approach works in tandem with fingerings that move diagonally across the neck, rather than in 4-fret positions. I think a lot of resistance to this comes when folks haven't spent a lot of time playing up and down one string, and rely on finger patterns in position for note location.

PK

**Robertkoa** · 02-19-2019, 05:01 PM

Whatever enables you to play what you 'hear' with the least amount of compromise .

Improved chops = less compromise .

Many 3 finger Players when they first encountered Fusion / 80's shredders /Jazz etc . actually did 'upgrade'.

Bernstein says he was a Rock and Blues Player ( as I suspected ) - and his main influence was Jim Hall so he did not need to 'upgrade' - to play 16ths 32nds and tuplets AND if he had - he might not be as unique as he is or as good .

Benson can hang or exceed the Fusion Guys ( especially time and feel and still super expressive playing Ballads and long notes etc ) but I don't personally see him as a 3 finger fretter .

I honestly think that very few 3 finger players are as fluid in 16ths and with wider intervals etc. but that doesn't matter - if it gives you what you like - that's what counts.

I also think that VERY few actual 3 finger Players are going to sit there and Play some McLaughlin / DiMeola etc. and say I did that in the 80's but now have evolved to 3 finger fretting - they will just sloooow down when needed ...but not change fingerings backwards and force more lateral position shifts .
There might be a few ....but not many who actually COULD and then backed away...
is my exact point.

And I am not bringing back the Fusion Era ..
But I can pick very close, to those Guys (McLaughlin, DiMeola ) but can also alternate across strings rhythmically .

I just did my 'no index finger 3 finger exercise ' and I found myself wanting to stretch to reach 1 b3 5 9 - which is NOT the point of my exercise, lol, it's just to work out those 'weaker 'fingers.

I can't imagine having to stretch to reach 4 frets instead of 4 - 5 - 6 ...

Obviously - IF Wes or Bernstein ' upgraded ' it might NOT actually be an upgrade for them - they are unique ( especially Wes but Bernstein too ) ..
I like Bernstein's Vibrato - surprising and cool - I think his idea/concept of using a Tune's Melody as the 'pitch collection ' and motif for much of the improv would prevent Improvisers like Myself from just throwing a bunch of stuff/licks on there having NOTHING to do with the Tune's Melody or even the Rhythm of the Melody .

I don't play standards but still a good idea to prevent homogenizing every Tune with licks rather than motifs ...

So I get it ...and I notice Bernstein is doing some dyads etc in his solos- he doesn't care about *virtuoso stuff......I like his comping too .

*I do and want to break new ground harmonically also ...

10 years for this 30 years for that 6 years to tie it together ...it adds up quick when I look back but I have most of the package ...

The voicings of his comping not necessarily the Rhythms - of course.

I am not imitating the comping of Jazz Guitarists - more piano like .

**Robertkoa** · 02-20-2019, 01:00 PM

Originally Posted by paulkogut

There’s a great scene in “The Exorcist” , where the young priest starts to list the various manifestations that are possessing Linda Blair, and the old priest cuts him off with, “There is only one…”Likewise, the neck of the guitar is just the neck of the guitar,. Breaking it down into ‘positions’ “areas’ or ‘fingerings’ for easier study is fine, but in the end “there is only one” How you choose to get around the entirety of the neck is an artistic choice that every player needs to make for themselves. Miles Okazaki’s transcription of Charlie Christian is a perfect example. There’s a tradition of playing that starts with Charlie and was developed by George Barnes, Jimmy Rainey, Wes, Bucky et. al. No one has to adopt the fingerings, picking and articulations of that tradition, but no one is going to sound ‘in’ that tradition if they do not.PK

Lol. This is really off topic on my part ..But the first Priest in the Movie - is SO HARD to Convince there's something 'Supernaturally Wrong' with the possessed Girl in this Movie ...lol.
'Did your daughter ever study Latin ? "

"Did she know my mother died recently ?"'
Or know my mother's name ?

"Has she ever studied speaking backwards in two different voices simultaneously ?''

"Has she studied Yoga , floating in air or 360 degree head rotation ?'

**christianm77** · 02-20-2019, 01:40 PM

I don’t think you’ve paid attention to what has been said lol

**Robertkoa** · 02-20-2019, 03:06 PM

The Movie or the Thread ?

OK three fingered Guys use their pinky when needed or for fretting emergency use only ...

Where Guys like me will stubbornly use my pinky even for bending ( actually I made that mistake for a long time lol - agree with that one ).

Or stubbornly use it to cover say a 5 fret span before shifting laterally rather than
Playing to my strengths and just shifting instead of forcing the pinky into EVERY pattern just because it's correct...

I don't even favor my first 3 fingers except bending ..

I do mini 3 string barrè with any finger.Depends on voicing of course .

'We are not talking about chords Robert '.

I know ...just saying...

I fundamentally use all 4 fingers equally.

BUT 3 Finger guys say 'they are NOT equal we use our Constitutional Rights to favor 3 and use 4 whenever we want /need to '.

Kinda like that....?¿

Or is even more subtle ' We use all our fingers same as 4 finger Guys but just THINK differently about it ' lol

**paulkogut** · 02-20-2019, 03:51 PM

Originally Posted by Robertkoa

Or is even more subtle ' We use all our fingers same as 4 finger Guys but just THINK differently about it ' lol

Robert,

I think you're onto something. Referring to Wes Montgomery's approach as "3-finger", while true, is rather misleading. It's not about the number of fingers used, it's about having your phrases move diagonally across the neck, spanning more than a typical 1 finger per fret 'position'. To me, the bebop language in the vein of Sonny Rollins and Clifford Brown speaks much more authentically on guitar using Wes' technique . While there's lots of good music to be made with a positional/alternate picking approach, I encourage folk interested in authentic bebop phrasing to check out the fingerings of Wes and Jimmy Rainey.

PK

**christianm77** · 02-20-2019, 05:02 PM

Yes, I think we are talking past each other a bit.

Still I can only spell out my reference points so many ways before I lose the enthusiasm to continue.

**Robertkoa** · 02-21-2019, 12:59 PM

I like the lateral movement thing - opens possibilities and creates better useable fingerboard knowledge ...

Just personally I don't need the fingerings .

**snoskier63** · 02-21-2019, 07:52 PM

God blessed me with four fingers and a thumb on each hand, so why not use all of them? I’ll revisit this thread if for any reason my finger count changes in the future.

**princeplanet** · 02-22-2019, 10:40 AM

Originally Posted by paulkogut

To me, the bebop language in the vein of Sonny Rollins and Clifford Brown speaks much more authentically on guitar using Wes' technique ....

PK

Really? I find transcribing the classic horn and piano Bop players is only possible with 4 fingers. Transcribing the 3 fingered Jazz guitarists, on the other hand, definitely sounds inferior with 4 fingers. That's why I transcribe non guitarists!