The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #101

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    There’s a great scene in “The Exorcist” , where the young priest starts to list the various manifestations that are possessing Linda Blair, and the old priest cuts him off with, “There is only one…”


    Likewise, the neck of the guitar is just the neck of the guitar,. Breaking it down into ‘positions’ “areas’ or ‘fingerings’ for easier study is fine, but in the end “there is only one” How you choose to get around the entirety of the neck is an artistic choice that every player needs to make for themselves. Miles Okazaki’s transcription of Charlie Christian is a perfect example. There’s a tradition of playing that starts with Charlie and was developed by George Barnes, Jimmy Rainey, Wes, Bucky et. al. No one has to adopt the fingerings, picking and articulations of that tradition, but no one is going to sound ‘in’ that tradition if they do not.


    PK


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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #102

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    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    gianliuca,
    Swing and bebop is not about playing scales. Guitarists tend to be obsessive about scales. Pianists, horn players and string players see and use scales for what they are. A means to familiarize oneself with their chosen instrument and build technique.

    Learning songs is paramount. Songs are what you will play on the job. They are also the form upon which you will base your solos.

    Regards,
    Jerome
    great advice.
    you mean: hear to music, think to music lines and just hope that some part of your body hits the guitar's strings in the right place without educate it...

  4. #103

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    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    Charlie Christian, George Barnes, Wes Montgomery, George Benson, Oscar Moore,T-Bone Walker, B.B. King and Bucky Pizzarelli all use (or used) a predominantly 3 finger left hand approach. This is because they employed a chord shape based method of looking at the fingerboard.

    Swing, blues and bebop guitarists used this approach because it's a "natural" way of organizing the fingerboard.

    The scale fingering/mode approach started to gain currency in the early to mid 1970s due in part to articles that were printed in Guitar Player magazine and later, Guitar World. Those articles were aimed at rock and blues players who sought entry into the world of jazz improvisation. Most of those articles were not written by jazz guitarists and had a classical slant. As a result, some players began to organize the fingerboard as scale fingerings rather than chord shapes. This gives rise to not only a different way of visualizing the fingerboard but also a different way of playing.

    In his 1941 Guitar Method, George Barnes uses chord shapes to outline the fingerboard touching only once on the major scale before diving into lines and phrasing.

    Likewise, in his excellent book Jazz Improvisation for Guitar, Garrison Fewell comments on Wes Montgomery's 'blues guitarist" fingerings. A careful examination of the phrases in Fewell's book reveals that most of them are played with 3 fingers and are also shape based.

    Some of you may disagree but I believe that the best way to understand the evolution of jazz guitar is to approach each era and it's players from their perspective not ours.
    do you have any links or information on where to find these articles and book? Great information!

  5. #104

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    Strange, I would not put Jimmy Raney in the 3 fingers group, he used his pinky quite often at least here:

    He also doesn't have big hands, is there relation between hand size and the 3 fingers vs 4 approach?
    Tal Farlow was using his 4 fingers covering half the neck with one arpeggio; he was quite a chord shape player.
    I suspect Billy Bean of also having been a 4 fingers player, but we unfortunately don't have much footage to support this.

  6. #105

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    Quote Originally Posted by gianluca
    great advice.
    you mean: hear to music, think to music lines and just hope that some part of your body hits the guitar's strings in the right place without educate it...
    No, that is not what I mean! No one can play jazz or any other kind of music without educating themselves. You must listen to the great players, learn the songs AND the vocabulary, study and practice. Otherwise, you are not going to to be able to play anything that has any substance or depth.

    As George Van Eps said "Luck won't do it and ignorance can't!".

  7. #106

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    gianluca you are officially - the reanimator!

    Three fingered style for me is thumb over the neck. You tend to avoid stretches this way and slide around a lot. Some of my students play this way (it is good for gypsy jazz and swing IMO) and I encourage them to alternate 1st and 3rd finger as much as possible, with a bit of 2nd finger.

    In any right hand fingering the thing avoid is playing the next string with the same finger and a shift. Playing either the same finger or a shift is fine, but doing both is awkward. So for a G major scale at the 2nd fret, standard shape, I would suggest

    1 3 1 / 1 3 1 3 / 3 1 3 / 3 1 3 1 / 1 going up
    1 \ 1 3 1 3 \ 3 1 3 \ 3 1 3 1 \ 1 3 1 going down

    Where / is slide up and \ is slide down

    But you might find other combinations that are more comfortable.

    With this type of fingering, you may find you need to do a different fingering when you play scales in intervals (3rd, 4ths etc)
    thank you, it works for me.
    the 3 finger allows me more strenght in each single note and a better phrasing: my music seems to be improved.
    what can you suggest me for chromatics line/scale?

  8. #107

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
    do you have any links or information on where to find these articles and book? Great information!
    Bob,
    The George Barnes Method for Electric Guitar has been out of print for nearly 40 years. It occasionally shows up on eBay at extortionate prices. I was lucky enough to find one in a used book store for a reasonable price. Possibly the best most easily acquired look into Charlie Christian's playing style is Stan Ayeroff's Swing to Bop. It and Garrison Fewell's Jazz Improvisation: A Melodic Approach for Guitar can be found on Amazon or other commercial websites.

    The articles that I referred to in the guitar magazines were mostly hogwash that had nothing to do with how jazz guitar was really played.
    Regards,
    Jerome

  9. #108

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    Quote Originally Posted by vinlander
    Strange, I would not put Jimmy Raney in the 3 fingers group, he used his pinky quite often at least here:

    He also doesn't have big hands, is there relation between hand size and the 3 fingers vs 4 approach?
    Tal Farlow was using his 4 fingers covering half the neck with one arpeggio; he was quite a chord shape player.
    I suspect Billy Bean of also having been a 4 fingers player, but we unfortunately don't have much footage to support this.
    Raney is using three fingers more often than he uses his pinky.

    No relation in hand size. Wes Montgomery had large hands.

    As has been stated before many times, it is not exclusively using three fingers. It is predominately three fingers with the fourth finger being used as an auxiliary.

    The style originated before Charlie Christian with the acoustic players but CC brought the style to electric guitar and set the standard for years afterward.

  10. #109

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    To be true I think 3 fingers technique cannot make a method... it developed together with the style.. it origined in a style.. and it was connected with lots fo circumstances - lots of 'here and now' - the guys were self-taughts and they often neglect pinky... and to hold guitar more up (hrizontally) with left hand thumb over the neck,
    guitar was blues instrument and this type of playing fitted well for playing blues licks and probably many other circumstances...

    It was not elaborated effecient technique as it is with classical where 'pinky is the king' (as my teacher used to say)

    So studying this technique would be more like historical reasearch.. it could be really useful and important to understand phrasing and articulation... but I do not think you can make a method out of it, because it was not method ever...


    Besides I think that references were much more about chord shapes... than scales or anything else..

    thank you, it works for me.
    the 3 finger allows me more strenght in each single note and a better phrasing: my music seems to be improved.
    It was also a push for me when I tried to get into it.. but later I smoothely slided back to 4 fingers and it sounded better...

    Now I notice that I play all 4 fingers - not strict classical postion but something in between... but when I play I do a lot of things like as if I played 3 fingers...

    what can you suggest me for chromatics line/scale
    do you really think it's efficinet?
    When I tried 3 fingers I focused on arps and typical melodic turnarounds - I mean I do not usually play all chromatic scale even with 4 fingers...

  11. #110

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    ……….and to hold guitar more up (hrizontally) with left hand thumb over the neck,
    guitar was blues instrument and this type of playing fitted well for playing blues licks and probably many other circumstances…

    It was not elaborated effecient technique as it is with classical where 'pinky is the king' (as my teacher used to say)

    So studying this technique would be more like historical reasearch.. it could be really useful and important to understand phrasing and articulation... but I do not think you can make a method out of it, because it was not method ever...

    Besides I think that references were much more about chord shapes... than scales or anything else..
    To say that guitar was a "blues instrument" is not accurate at all. Most of the early jazz guitarists were listening to Ravel and Debussy along with pop, jazz and blues. Furthermore, Eddie Lang and Lonnie Johnson both played violin before they played guitar so one must consider that they knew about using the fourth finger.

    That the majority of players from the Twenties through the Fifties played this way (and some wrote books about it) there is a very strong argument that it is, indeed, a method.

  12. #111

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    Quote Originally Posted by gianluca
    thank you, it works for me.
    the 3 finger allows me more strenght in each single note and a better phrasing: my music seems to be improved.
    what can you suggest me for chromatics line/scale?
    I would suggest working out some phrases from recordings and doing what comes naturally.

    No doubt some will disagree, but it works for me. It's good try a few different fingerings before finding ones that's the most comfortable.

  13. #112

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    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    Bob,
    The George Barnes Method for Electric Guitar has been out of print for nearly 40 years. It occasionally shows up on eBay at extortionate prices. I was lucky enough to find one in a used book store for a reasonable price. Possibly the best most easily acquired look into Charlie Christian's playing style is Stan Ayeroff's Swing to Bop. It and Garrison Fewell's Jazz Improvisation: A Melodic Approach for Guitar can be found on Amazon or other commercial websites.

    The articles that I referred to in the guitar magazines were mostly hogwash that had nothing to do with how jazz guitar was really played.
    Regards,
    Jerome
    didnt he have a book in the 40's as well?

  14. #113

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    Quote Originally Posted by bobsguitars09
    didnt he have a book in the 40's as well?
    That's the same book. It was in print from 1941 until the early 70s.

  15. #114

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    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    There are videos on Youtube of Wes Montgomery, George Barnes, Garrison Fewell, Jimmy Raney, Bucky Pizarelli, Frank Vignola and other swing/bop guitarists who use this technique. Watching them will be more instructive than any amount of discussion we have here. Miles Okazaki's demonstration of Charlie Christian's Stomping at the Savoy solo is excellent.



    The difference between Gypsy Jazz and American Swing is that common chord shapes are the left hand point of reference in Swing rather than the diagonal arpeggios of Gypsy Jazz.
    I never thought of it that way, but I see your point, I think. I play American Swing and Gypsy Jazz.... I just play whatever pops into my head. But that said, I do think I bounce around the neck a bit more when I am playing the Manouche stuff. It suits those bigger runs.

    IRC Okazaki plays 3 fingered even if he is doing contemporary stuff.

    Rosenwinkel is quite a three fingered player for solo lines, in fact. More so than a lot of his contemporaries. He does use his fourth finger, but it's not on even footing with his other fingers as far as I can see...

    Peter Bernstein is also heavily three fingered when playing lines. Both are thumb over the top guys when playing single note lines.



    Who else - Jim Mullen? Metheny, largely.

    Three fingers and sliding around is a pretty valid technique for any style of single note playing IMO...
    Last edited by christianm77; 02-28-2016 at 04:26 PM.

  16. #115

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    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    To say that guitar was a "blues instrument" is not accurate at all. Most of the early jazz guitarists were listening to Ravel and Debussy along with pop, jazz and blues. Furthermore, Eddie Lang and Lonnie Johnson both played violin before they played guitar so one must consider that they knew about using the fourth finger.

    That the majority of players from the Twenties through the Fifties played this way (and some wrote books about it) there is a very strong argument that it is, indeed, a method.
    Thanks for the info. Lots of stuff I didn't know!

    AFAIK the violin is largely played with three fingers.

    Four fingered guitar technique evolved to allow the execution of polyphony on the instrument. IMO it is not an optimised technique for purely melodic playing.

  17. #116

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    Quote Originally Posted by gianluca
    my interior fight is if to start a (I presume) pretty long period to learn and familiarize with the 3 fingers techinque or goin' on (or improve) my efforts on the "normal" 4 fingers technique: in a different video, mr. okazaki shows a very solid 4 fingers techinque (a chromatic scale video)...

    (edit) I can't figure how a chromatic scale could be shaped with 3 fingers...
    You can play a chromatic scale with 1 finger.


  18. #117

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    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    Bob,
    The George Barnes Method for Electric Guitar has been out of print for nearly 40 years. It occasionally shows up on eBay at extortionate prices. I was lucky enough to find one in a used book store for a reasonable price. Possibly the best most easily acquired look into Charlie Christian's playing style is Stan Ayeroff's Swing to Bop. It and Garrison Fewell's Jazz Improvisation: A Melodic Approach for Guitar can be found on Amazon or other commercial websites.

    The articles that I referred to in the guitar magazines were mostly hogwash that had nothing to do with how jazz guitar was really played.
    Regards,
    Jerome
    Vintage Music Folios and Out Of Print Methods in PDF Format

    Any use?

  19. #118

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Possibly for the membership-at-large. I prefer hard copies and have most of the guitar folios listed there. Although that Volpe-Victor book piques my interest.

  20. #119

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    To say that guitar was a "blues instrument" is not accurate at all. Most of the early jazz guitarists were listening to Ravel and Debussy along with pop, jazz and blues. Furthermore, Eddie Lang and Lonnie Johnson both played violin before they played guitar so one must consider that they knew about using the fourth finger.
    ok let me correct myself it was also blues instrument...

    And guitar really was a blues instrument... I mean the blues was associated with guitar quite strongly and it should have influenced how the guitar was treated in other styles - at least in popular music...

    I understand that early jazz guitarists dis not come from blues guitar mostly as well as music often was much closer to 'classical salon' or cabaret than afro-american genres...

    To be fair I do not even always feel this music as jazz...

    but I still think that the most difference CC had in was that he actually came from blues ... even today when I hear for example Joe Pisano or Bucky Pizzarelli (great masters - no doubt!) - they sound like they inherited more this pre- CC era...
    they are like two different branches of the tree...


    That the majority of players from the Twenties through the Fifties played this way (and some wrote books about it) there is a very strong argument that it is, indeed, a method.
    With this I am not sure I can agree... of course if you want you can make a method out of anything... my idea was that the fact that the technique came from non-academical enviroment it developed spontaneously...
    so it reflects more the music that it was used for..

    but from reading your post I see that you for sure have much more expertise in the history of jazz guitar than me I just would trust your opinion untill I find time to do more researches myself

  21. #120

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    Both are thumb over the top guys when playing single note lines.
    I think with modern electric guitars when they have necks like Ibanez you can be 'thumb over' player and use 4 fingers... and when you're on your feet you almost always become a 'thumb over'..

    Actually from point of view of physical 'guitarism' Scofield is closest to the way I am trying to do it (not that I copied him - just noticed similarity)

    What I mean is that if a student came to me I would not recomment him to copy Metheny's or Peter Bernstein's left hand technique... they are both great but they learnt it the way they did - and probably being still kids...


    But if you really want to approach it conciously you have to choose something more effecient.. and the Sco's left hand has both all different types of technique and at teh same time seems to be very efficient ber ergonomic

  22. #121

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    ok let me correct myself it was also blues instrument...

    And guitar really was a blues instrument... I mean the blues was associated with guitar quite strongly...
    Jonah,
    The earliest blues recording I've ever heard was W.C. Handy's Memphis Blues Band recorded in 1917. A brass band!

    During the first two decades of the Twentieth Century, the blues was associated with female singers like Mamie Smith, Ma Rainey and Bessie Smith performing with small orchestras of brass.

    The guitar did not begin to come to the forefront until Blind Lemon Jefferson and Blind Blake began recording in the late Twenties.

  23. #122

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    I think with modern electric guitars when they have necks like Ibanez you can be 'thumb over' player and use 4 fingers... and when you're on your feet you almost always become a 'thumb over'..

    Actually from point of view of physical 'guitarism' Scofield is closest to the way I am trying to do it (not that I copied him - just noticed similarity)

    What I mean is that if a student came to me I would not recomment him to copy Metheny's or Peter Bernstein's left hand technique... they are both great but they learnt it the way they did - and probably being still kids...

    But if you really want to approach it conciously you have to choose something more effecient.. and the Sco's left hand has both all different types of technique and at teh same time seems to be very efficient ber ergonomic
    If you looked at the history of jazz guitar and eliminated all the guitarists who played with a classical left hand technique, you would still have a pretty comprehensive history of melodic jazz guitar.

    I think that tells us that there is a correct technique for melodic plectrum guitar, and it is not the classical guitar left hand.

    If this was not the case, why would Kurt and Peter Bernstein, say, move to a more conventional classical left hand when playing chords?

    The reason is because that is the appropriate technique for the chordal/polyphonic material and the 3 fingered violinistic technique is the correct technique for the melodic stuff.

    Furthermore, whenever I have played material with a three fingered technique and A/B'd them the listeners have always chosen the sound of the three fingered technique. It just sounds better.
    Attached Images Attached Images Three Finger Guitar Technique-imgres-2-jpg Three Finger Guitar Technique-imgres-3-jpg Three Finger Guitar Technique-floyd-smith-1940s1-jpg Three Finger Guitar Technique-url-jpg 

  24. #123

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    Oh dear, "correct technique" for brothel music.

  25. #124

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    I've only been a member of this forum for eight years and I've lost track of the number of times we've had this discussion. Inevitably, there will be some supporters and some detractors.

    There will always be a certain number of folks who argue against this for various reasons.
    Some because they've invested years playing scales with four fingers and don't want to face the possibility of retraining their left hand, some because they arrived here with a background of classical guitar and feel that that training trumps everything else, others because their teacher or teachers (who trained them?) told them that using four fingers to fret was the "correct" way.

    The supporters will point out, as has been done everytime this discussion rears its head, that the best way to get "the sound" is to do what The Greats did. It's just that simple.

    There is way too much over thinking that goes on. Learn the songs, learn the vocabulary, learn how Django Reinhardt, Charlie Christian, George Barnes, Oscar Moore and Wes Montgomery (or whomever you personally choose) did it and go do it.

    If you don't want to do that, then don't.

    It's always going to be a matter of choice.

    I've made my choice and I'm very happy with it. You should be happy with the choice you make.

    However, you must always remember that if you aren't happy with the choices you've made, you must be prepared to make changes.

    Regards,
    Jerome
    Last edited by monk; 02-28-2016 at 07:18 PM. Reason: clarity

  26. #125

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    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    I've only been a member of this forum for eight years and I've lost track of the number of times we've had this discussion. Inevitably, there will be some supporters and some detractors.

    There will always be a certain number of folks who argue against this for various reasons.
    Some because they've invested years playing scales with four fingers and don't want to face the possibility of retraining their left hand, some because they arrived here with a background of classical guitarand feel that that training trumps everything else, others because their teacher or teachers (trained them?) told them that using four fingers to fret was the "correct" way.

    The supporters will point out, as has been done everytime this discussion rears its head, that the best way to get "the sound" is to do what The Greats did. It's just that simple.

    There is way too much over thinking that goes on. Learn the songs, learn the vocabulary, learn how Django Reinhardt, Charlie Christian, George Barnes, Oscar Moore and Wes Montgomery (or whomever you personally choose) did it and go do it.

    If you don't want to do that, then don't.

    It's always going to be a matter of choice.

    I've made my choice and I'm very happy with it. You should be happy with the choice you make.

    However, you must always remember that if you aren't happy with the choices you've made, you must be prepared to make changes.

    Regards,
    Jerome
    Very well put.