The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #301

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    Quote Originally Posted by pingu
    incredible jazz guitar !
    I don't know how he can remember all that
    let alone actually play the thing !

    i need a little rest now ...

    aren't humans amazing tho ?
    Yes, and what's even more amazing (much, much more obviously) is that someone actually improvised that solo on the spot once upon a time. Even though Cannonball Adderley often gets voted in the top 10 sax players of all time, I still say he's underrated!!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #302

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Can anyone do this with 3 fingers?

    That's really impressive. I don't think Peter Bernstein would be able to do that.

    Make of that what you will...

    I can't see any videos of him playing a jazz gig or anything though. I'd be interested to hear him play a gig.
    Last edited by christianm77; 03-29-2016 at 01:20 PM.

  4. #303

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    There is enough evidence available through interviews with people who were there at the time along with films and videos of players from the swing and bebop eras to authenticate that the guitarists from that period did irrefutably play with predominantly three fingers.

    I've seen videos where Wes Montgomery and Jimmy Raney did use their four fingers to execute a line. Possibly Charlie Christian did also. That occasional employment of the pinky does not invalidate or change the fact that most of the time they used three fingers.

    This morning I watched a well-known Gypsy Jazz guitarist play Minor Swing. During the course of the solo he used two, three and four fingers to execute his ideas. My impression was that he was using whatever number of fingers necessary to make things easy to play.

    I've seen video of Django playing chromatics with one finger and other GJ guitarist using three fingers for chromatic lines.

    I heard Joe Pass say, many times, when I was at GIT "I'm always looking for the easiest way to play things". I've heard Chet Atkins say the same thing. If there's a lesson to be learned, that's it. If three is easier than four, use three. If two is easier than three, use two.

    Ted Greene once said, "No one is going to hire you because you know the theory. They hire you because you know what to play".

    Similarly, no one will hire you because of how many fingers you use. They'll hire you because you can do the job.
    Last edited by monk; 02-28-2018 at 02:44 PM.

  5. #304

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    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    ........ whatever number of fingers necessary to make things easy to play.


    ........
    Yup, and sometimes 4 fingers makes certain things easiest to play, providing you have some control over the stubborn pinky....

  6. #305

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    One thing I've noticed, is that it seems to be a real estate issue. It's easier to see through 3 fingers than through 4, where you're going, have been, etc. Size of hands come into play here,,but regardless, the extraction of the finial digit is at times helpful from a visual standpoint, not that all are looking, of course,,but, it does occur, I'd wager.

  7. #306

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    Let's see this repeating figure in 1/8ths, where do you find it the easiest to play, in what fingering?

    Eb Db C Bb A Eb Db C| Bb A Eb Db C Bb A Eb| Db C Bb A Eb Db C Bb| A Eb Db ... , and so on, where Eb is equivalent to 2nd string 4th fret ...

    Also, how fast can you do it, in BPM?

  8. #307

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    Quote Originally Posted by princeplanet
    Can anyone do this with 3 fingers?

    Dude are you kidding? I can SOOOO play this... with ONE finger.

    In fact it's the only way I can.

    One finger to press "play" that is...

    ...there really needs to be federal regulations on playing that fast...

  9. #308

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    If two strings only, where it does not keep descending, but returns to the original note? Or, does it keep descending, so that the 2nd Eb in the first phrase is an octave lower than the first and so on,,not sure of octaves or unisons,,,,,

    repeating unisons just keeps it on the G and B strings

    if I drop my low E to a D should cinch it

    Have you ever seen a guitar totaled for all this speeding? Awful sight,,,,,
    Last edited by guitarbard; 03-30-2016 at 10:45 AM.

  10. #309

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarbard
    If two strings only, where it does not keep descending, but returns to the original note? Or, does it keep descending, so that the 2nd Eb in the first phrase is an octave lower than the first and so on,,not sure of octaves or unisons,,,,,

    repeating unisons just keeps it on the G and B strings

    if I drop my low E to a D should cinch it

    Have you ever seen a guitar totaled for all this speeding? Awful sight,,,,,
    Talking to me? The pitch of Eb is always equal to 4th fret 2nd string.
    It's 5 notes figure repeating all over again in chunks of eight notes, all played as 1/8th ...
    So you have 5+3 from the next, then remaining 2+5+1, then remaining 4+4, remaining 1+5+2, and finally 3+5, where you start it all over again.
    There is no occasion of one same note played 2 times in a row.

    So, you'd do it on 2nd and 3rd string, but what would be the fingering?
    Last edited by Vladan; 03-30-2016 at 10:59 AM.

  11. #310

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    Quote Originally Posted by Vladan
    Let's see this repeating figure in 1/8ths, where do you find it the easiest to play, in what fingering?

    Eb Db C Bb A Eb Db C| Bb A Eb Db C Bb A Eb| Db C Bb A Eb Db C Bb| A Eb Db ... , and so on, where Eb is equivalent to 2nd string 4th fret ...

    Also, how fast can you do it, in BPM?
    What is the question behind this question?

    As has been pointed out upthread, the players like Charlie Christian or Wes Montgomery who play largely with three fingers don't play entirely with three fingers, and use their pinkies occasionally.

    Obviously, it is easy enough to construct a sequence of notes that cannot be played without a position change, a stretch, or a fourth finger; and your example is one of them.

    Is the goal to play like Charlie Christian, or like Yngwie Malmsteen?

    It remains an interesting question: if we de-emphasize our fourth fingers in our play, how does our relationship to the fretboard change? Are those changes worth preserving if we bring our fourth fingers back into play?

    (NB: I play CAGED with all four fingers because that is how I learned to play.)

  12. #311

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    Quote Originally Posted by abostick59
    ... Is the goal to play like Charlie Christian, or like Yngwie Malmsteen? ...
    Point is to play good, with as few compromises as possible. In that regard, Christian, or Malmsteen, whatever you choose, you lose.

  13. #312

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    Quote Originally Posted by abostick59
    ...
    As has been pointed out upthread, the players like Charlie Christian or Wes Montgomery who play largely with three fingers don't play entirely with three fingers, and use their pinkies occasionally...
    There is no known visual archive of how Charlie Christian played as far as I know. He may have used two fingers and an elbow.

  14. #313

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    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200
    There is no known visual archive of how Charlie Christian played as far as I know. He may have used two fingers and an elbow.
    As I mentioned upstream, we have anecdotal testimony from players who actually saw Christian play and video footage of players from the same era who were influenced by Christian first hand.

  15. #314

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    Ok,,2nd and 3rd strings only,,thank you I found myself using different combinations of 3 fingers, not fast,,just getting it under my fingers, so to say,,not that slow,,either. I've never measured my speed, never felt the need to do that. If someone is talking too, or very, fast, and doing it well enough to be understood, they still tire me out, listening. For ME, it's not about speed, but music, tho speed at times is a necessary thing, I feel. I agree. I like musicians who speak the language of music(not to be preaching to any choirs, here) and, Vladan, I'm not implying that I think you don't do this, either.
    Just elucidating on what I'm about. i've been playing for 51+ years, and at this juncture, playing is not a contest. My only opponent is myself.
    Last edited by guitarbard; 03-30-2016 at 02:36 PM. Reason: addition to post

  16. #315

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    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    As I mentioned upstream, we have anecdotal testimony from players who actually saw Christian play and video footage of players from the same era who were influenced by Christian first hand.
    I still think that it is very easy to confuse a finger with an elbow.

  17. #316

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    Quote Originally Posted by lammie200
    I still think that it is very easy to confuse a finger with an elbow.
    I heard he used his knee.

  18. #317

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    Guthrie Govan will play using mostly 3 fingers. Lead lines, that is, at least. I forget what Brad Paisley does mostly. He's pretty good, even though he plays little jazz. Govan knows some nice jazz, said he wanted to be a sax player when a kid, and though circumvented there, can take some real saxy sounding lines to the guitar.

  19. #318

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    Quote Originally Posted by monk
    Here we go again.

    Barney Kessel didn't say he used ALL downstrokes.

    George Barnes is on record in magazine interview saying that he, also, used MOSTLY down strokes.

    I've watched Bucky play on video and in person and can say that he also uses MOSTLY down strokes.

    For the moment, I chose to believe Barney Kessel's statement, my own eyes and what I've found from researching old guitar methods over your ears.

    A contemporary player of sterling reputation---Frank Vignola---describes his own picking as "mostly down."

    Here's a look at it in a teaching context, a lick from one of his True Fire courses. He doesn't talk about his picking here. (I've written to Frank about this a few times and he says he doesn't give picking advice because he knows so many great players who do it in different ways.) But you can see that he uses consecutive downstrokes on the same string in part of this lick. He's not saying you have to or that this is the only way, but he is doing that. Lot more downstrokes than upstrokes in this lick


  20. #319

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    How about a bass player that doesn't use his pinky? I don't think so. Or a mandolin. I don't know about Brad Paisley but most Country players use their pinky well. I personally feel that no player regardless of who or how good they are is playing at their peak with only 3 fingers.

  21. #320

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    Mark Knopfler always plants two fingers, unless he needs them, natch:


  22. #321

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    Quote Originally Posted by guitarbard
    Guthrie Govan will play using mostly 3 fingers. Lead lines, that is, at least. I forget what Brad Paisley does mostly. He's pretty good, even though he plays little jazz. Govan knows some nice jazz, said he wanted to be a sax player when a kid, and though circumvented there, can take some real saxy sounding lines to the guitar.
    Are you sure??


  23. #322

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    I play with a guy you calls Guthrie a lot - apparently he's really up for doing real gigs that aren't guitar seminars etc. He's meant to be a dab hand at country.

  24. #323

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I play with a guy you calls Guthrie a lot - apparently he's really up for doing real gigs that aren't guitar seminars etc. He's meant to be a dab hand at country.
    He's a very dab hand at practically everything (see YouTube). He ought to be famous by now but he's not. I think he's into his own fusion stuff which, to be honest, isn't that gripping. Excellent teacher, though.

  25. #324

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    I mentioned this before but recently the idea has taken out added weight for me.
    It is less about how many fingers you (may) use but how you orient your hand to the guitar.

    If your palm faces the ceiling, the finger-per-fret rule works fine. Your fingers are parallel. Positional playing makes sense.

    But if your palm is facing the body of the guitar (-the handshake position, more or less), then a) your fingers aren't parallel anymore and b) your ring finger can reach further up the neck than your pinky can. If you use your pinky with your hand held this way, it doesn't get as much out of a note as it would if one were in a more classical position. (This way, one isn't really playing with the fingertip, at least not full on.)

    Here's a nice demonstration of Herb Ellis switching between the two positions. He often curls his pinky---very old school folk-style---but he also uncurls it and uses it as needed.


  26. #325

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    Good observations, IMO, although even in a hand shake position I can't reach with my 3. any further than with pinkie. Maybe a little bit on thicker strings, but pinkie wins on high E, B and G.

    Nevertheless, thank you for reminding me, I should maintain good position and devellop my 3. And 4. Fingers strong. This half here half there grip I currently employ is comfortable for laziness, but actually leading nowhere.
    I remember, I used to hold bars and play in general with thumb below the middle line, now I can hardly position that way in slo mo if at all.


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