Three Finger Guitar Technique

[Vladan]

Here's an observation that might answer some of Mark's and Vladan's questions ...

Although I can't quite understand why, it seems necessary to again point out that neither Monk nor I have said ...

Although I can't quite understand why, it seems necessary to point out that I did not have any real questions regarding the subject. I may have posed couple rhetorical, so I could bitch from that point.

Also I have to say, I agree with just about everything else PK wrote above.

[lawson-stone]

I dunno...to me it seems like another distraction from the actual playing...another thing to obsess over ("Is my hand at the right angle? How does my hand compare to so and so's?")

It certainly matters how one grips the guitar...but sometimes, I feel like we do a lot of talking about things that "manufacture" issues for us here at jazzguitar.be...at a certain point we have to ask ourselves "is this an issue for me?" instead of fixing things until they are broken.

Definitely some truth to that. As an amateur or hobby player, I find talking about playing to be pretty fun and don't feel like I have to be practicing all the time... which is why I'll always be pretty much what I am. For me the guitar is the center around which a whole complex of things orbit, and this conversation is part of it. But yes, I agree that the playing is central and it's certainly possible to get totally on a tangent.

[mr. beaumont]

Right, and it's only my opinion based on what I've seen happen here in the past...we're an obsessive lot.

[grahambop]

the fact that I shoot .45 caliber pistols in my back yard...

Hey Lawson you're totally right about the fingers thing, I ain't gonna argue with you...

[PMB]

Oh no, I've already moved on from this.

It struck me that the 4 finger guys are perhaps a bit 'note-y', over-complex sometimes. So then I considered the 3 finger guys like Wes - maybe they have a bit more bluesy feeling and power. That got me thinking about Django - only 2 fingers, yet he had dazzling speed and more power than anybody, even using an acoustic guitar.

So now I am preparing to take the next logical step - I am going to develop a one-finger technique!

I'll let you know how I get on.

It works for chords as well. Take a basic triad, drop two of the notes out and voila, you're left with a classic drop 2 voicing! (see the video below at 3'12" for a demonstration. In fact, just watch the whole thing for some great musical tips):

[lawson-stone]

Hey Lawson you're totally right about the fingers thing, I ain't gonna argue with you...

I should add that I live on a 10 acre farm out in the country and my neighbor shoots even bigger stuff than I do. I custom load my ammo at a reduced power to reduce noise, recoil, etc. I just shoot at tin cans and the occasional possum.

[grahambop]

It works for chords as well. Take a basic triad, drop two of the notes out and voila, you're left with a classic drop 2 voicing! (see the video below at 3'12" for a demonstration. In fact, just watch the whole thing for some great musical tips):

I want lessons from Hans!

[monk]

Sure, during the whole process where a group of us did this 4 measures per week, about twice a week I played it along with Raney's recording just to double-check the notation-reality gap. It was really fun to hear all that bebop coming out of MY amplifier. In fact, my guitar and amp thought they'd been sold to a real musician for a while there.

None of my technique is classical. My earliest real "study" of guitar was when I was about 13, working with Frederick Noad's Playing the Guitar which is, of course a classical book. But I didn't read it carefully or follow it slavishly. Mainly I learned to read music for guitar and also developed a p-i-m-a right hand finger style. But I "prop" on my right pinky, which is a no-no for classical, I also don't do the "knuckles parallel to the strings" thing, nor do I do rest-strokes with any intentionality. Left hand is whatever works for what I'm playing, so hooking the thumb, sure, dropping the thumb low to get a better position, sure. I do it all. But from Noad I guess I did acquire an active left pinky!

I've sort of been the gamut of styles: blue-grass fingerpicking with the metal fingerpicks, Chet Atkins style with the thumbtack and bare fingers, Travis-picking, folk styles... I came to jazz when i was about 30 years old and decided there really must be life above the 5th fret, you know? I also heard Joe Pass on the radio and nearly wrecked my car I was so blown away. that was a tipping point moment, to be sure.

I don't smoke, but I really do think that rolled-up piece of paper in my mouth helped.

Was the thumbtack painful?

[monk]

That's a good observation, Mark. Since this thread has been somewhat resurrected from an earlier discussion, I'll repeat what I said a few hundred posts back...

Here's an observation that might answer some of Mark's and Vladan's questions simultaneously. A lot of times, jazz musicians will refer to complex sets of concepts with deceptively simple terminology. Advice to 'transcribe' or 'learn tunes' is shorthand for some real in-depth studies, and the 'three fingers' concept is the same. In the context of Wes and Jimmy Raney, it's not enough to just not use the 4th finger, it's about taking a look at the entirety of how their left hands interface with the neck and fretboard. What's the angle of the arm, wrist and fingers? How are distances covered between notes; finger movement, wrist movement, arm movement? How does the right hand's role change in relation to the left hand playing more diagonally?


Although I can't quite understand why, it seems necessary to again point out that neither Monk nor I have said that this was the only way to play and everyone has to do it. It's a body of concept and technique like any other (say, Benson picking). If you like the results that certain players get, it's good to know the method behind it. If someone has another fingering approach that delivers results that they dig, that's cool, too. I will add this, though. One thing that I've noticed from years of teaching is that some folks use position playing as a crutch for not being able to independently locate notes. They get the pattern and memorize where the fingers go, but don't really know the names or degrees of the notes within. You have to be really solid on note location to get a handle on the Wes fingerings, I've seen lots of people not know the neck as well as they assumed they did.


PK

Paul,
You've hit a good point here. While the approach we're discussing pre-dates Charlie Christian, he and all those he influenced, used simple chord shapes as a left hand reference. One of the great benefits of this approach is that these three (to five) shapes clearly show the location of root, three, and five and make the location of the other notes quickly recognizable by number. I've seen far too many players who memorize a scale shape and then just move the pattern around the neck. With just a rudimentary understanding of enough theory to be able to spell major and minor triads, even a beginning improviser has a clear roadmap of what notes lie beneath his or her fingers and can name the notes easily.
Regards,
Jerome

[monk]

What I would like to see is someone take couple of bars of above Raney's solo and do it in 4 for fingers way, so we could see the difference.

When you use 3 fingers to play licks of 3 fret span, that's not really 3 finger playing, because 3 fret span is covered with those same 3 fingers in 4 finger playing, just like it is in 3 fingers playing. What I see in Raney's playing is not 3 fingers playing, because he uses 4 fingers whenever there's a need for 4 fret span. Not once I spoted him reach with his ring. For that matter, I don't remember seeing him reach with his index, or pinkie, either.

What he does is constantly going out of position and returning to it, sliding up and down into notes, but that's hardly 3 fingers play, in my world, at least, it is not.

What it is, is avoiding stretches and reaches, while insisting on slides, instead.

3 fingers play ploy is more pile of BS than it is not.

Vladan,
Granted that is is not a very clear video but I've watched it three times and Raney does indeed reach across four frets with three fingers here. More than once. Think what you wish in your world but he is doing it.
Regards,
Jerome

[lawson-stone]

Was the thumbtack painful?

It was awful. But I heard that the actual creator of the style I wanted to play, and the guy who developed all the important lines and phrasing, always played with a thumbtack. So you know, do what the masters do...

[monk]

It was awful. But I heard that the actual creator of the style I wanted to play, and the guy who developed all the important lines and phrasing, always played with a thumbtack. So you know, do what the masters do...

For future reference. Most of those guys use Novacaine before they put on the thumbtack.

[lawson-stone]

For future reference. Most of those guys use Novacaine before they put on the thumbtack.

DANG! When the method failed--i sucked as a thumbtack stylist--I chalked it up to the method being BS. So NOW I learn I was using it all wrong... I guess I gotta go back and try again.

Once playing at a redneck bar (I was underaged, but hey...) I lost my pick. Back then, beer cans opened with a "pull tab" that came loose from the can and had to be thrown away. So I picked a pull-tab off the floor and played with that.

It did not go very well. I am not a good redneck bar guitarist.

[gianluca]

I feel a little guilty for this thread re-life but my only aim was how to improve my playing.
I'm a 4 finger approach player but I just noticed that the natural weakness of my pink was unbeatable despite the huge amount of hours spent practicing;
Both, I noticed that the vertical scale approach was landing me to play always the same stuff all over the fretboard, while if playing octaves, I make more creative lines.
I also noticed that some of my favorite intuitive and creative players like Wes and Benson had an 3 fingers oriented approach and it seems that their playing is more chords shape oriented than scales oriented.
that's why I asked some advice about this new (for me) approach.
Christianm77 gave me one way to play a G maj scale and I found that very helpful and I was wondering if other advice or pdf was available

[lammie200]

I am a very compassionate guy. I don't want my pinky to feel left out and cry wee wee wee all the way home.

[dingusmingus]

One thing that I've noticed from years of teaching is that some folks use position playing as a crutch for not being able to independently locate notes. They get the pattern and memorize where the fingers go, but don't really know the names or degrees of the notes within. You have to be really solid on note location to get a handle on the Wes fingerings, I've seen lots of people not know the neck as well as they assumed they did.

Man, this really resonates with me. I've been exploring some new fingers, mostly 3 and 4 notes per string, after several years of position playing. It's really forcing me to learn the music and the neck better. I'm starting to feel like I was so locked up before!

[MarkRhodes]

Granted that is is not a very clear video but I've watched it three times and Raney does indeed reach across four frets with three fingers here.

I think the way he holds his hand there, his ring finger covers more ground than his pinky would if he was using a more classical grip where the fingers remain parallel to the frets.

Some teachers suggest putting a pencil between the edge of one's palm--where the fingers extend---and the neck of the guitar. The idea is have a bit of room there but the assumption is that the hand will remain in that position on the neck. But Raney would drop that pencil! His hand is very open.

[MarkRhodes]

On the hand thing. Here is a lesson for beginners by---I presume---a rock-oriented guitarist. He's showing how to place the hand on the neck. Simple stuff, nothing radical. But also nothing like what Raney is doing in that video. In fact, when he says (-demonstrating a more twisted position), "You don't want that," it actually looks more like what Raney is doing!

[Vladan]

Vladan,
Granted that is is not a very clear video but I've watched it three times and Raney does indeed reach across four frets with three fingers here. More than once. Think what you wish in your world but he is doing it.
Regards,
Jerome

I certainly could not care less about your pompous wishes. However, I stand corrected, in the video, indeed he does cover 4 frets with 3 fingers.

I wonder how he'd handle if the rule was imposed for obligatory position playing, would he use pinkie, or 3rd? Only in position playing it is possible to really establish weather one plays with 3, or 4 fingers. Clearly, he uses pinkie more than occasionally, whenever situation calls for it, he does not insist on playing with ring where it is hard to do and not logical.
Also, on the absolute level, given the observers point of reference is relative, the way he does it, physically, 3rd finger reach, it is equal to 2nd finger stretch with 3rd to follow, which is on the par to index stretches from the position, as you end with uncovered fret btw index and middle.

[christianm77]

On the hand thing. Here is a lesson for beginners by---I presume---a rock-oriented guitarist. He's showing how to place the hand on the neck. Simple stuff, nothing radical. But also nothing like what Raney is doing in that video. In fact, when he says (-demonstrating a more twisted position), "You don't want that," it actually looks more like what Raney is doing!

I would describe this as a fairly classical left hand.

Something you really need to watch out for if you position your left hand in this way whether or not your left wrist is anyway bent. His is OK in this video, but depending how you have your guitar, this is a real potential issue.

If you bend your left wrist and make stretches then you are asking for some sort of Carpal Tunnel issue. This took me out of the game for months a few years back. Luckily I was able to work out what the problem was and remedy it (I was playing a lot of Bach with poor posture - I changed my posture and the issue vanished.)

So, I would strongly urge anyone using these type of left hand to also sit in a classical way - that is with the guitar over the left knee and some sort of foot stool or guitar rest.

I'm a bit militant about this but this is something you should be careful about. Just make sure you aren't bending that left wrist and you should be fine.

Of course, if you grab the guitar neck in your hand (the 'wrong way') your wrist is more or less guaranteed to remain straight.

Something else to watch out for - make sure you aren't pressing down too hard. This is another issue for me, especially when I started playing louder. It's quite hard to do loud right hand quiet left hand, as my wife's cello teacher puts it.

[goldenwave77]

2 additional issues on this 3-finger v. 4-finger debate

1. I don't understand why guitarists don't use straps. There is a youtube of Joe Diorio playing "All The Things You Are" where the gtr. is held high on his chest, almost as if he is "wearing the instrument". Take a look at Joe P....gtr. held high...both these guys can, and do, close their eyes and they KNOW where the instrument is...the strap holds it there. There is a video clip of some girl earlier on in this post where she is playing, sans strap, ....she is bouncing around. IMO, if you can't assume a playing position, close your eyes and PLAY, you're making your life a lot harder than it should be.

When I was a teenager, I was a pretty decent basketball player... team captain and MVP and set scoring records as a 9th grader...and we almost beat Roosevelt (the neighboring town where Doctor J. came from). My father put up a rim and backboard in our backyard, which was nice...until the spring rains came and the whole thing sank by about an inch....had to stop using it for practice...I'd got out on a regulation ht. rim (10') and my 19' and 21' foot jumpers were coming up short consistently...try to overcorrect and they were long....this is like practicing with a guitar where your hand positions (in any given position) are always changing....worried about neck balance?...easy fix---tie the end of the strap around the headstock...Wes M. did it...the fulcrum pt. is now in the middle of the body....concerns about head heavy guitars just disappear when you do this.

2. What about spread fingerings? Basic major scale using spread fingering starting on index....the bebop major 5, #5, 6 run is a whole lot easier to play than a scale form starting on the 2nd finger...Reg. just posted a big discussion of his fingerings, and a lot of these look like spread forms...can these be done with 3 fingers?...unless your name is Peter Parker (aka Spiderman), you're making your life harder than it needs to be.

Bottom line---nobody would say let's ban all slurs and slides on the guitar...that's ridiculous...seems to me both these techniques should be available...we just need to be aware of what our technique is predisposing us to do...really Jack Z. made a good very observation in his comment about how certain picking patterns are "rhythmically agnostic"...guitar playing is a physical act...and awareness of what "ingredients"--physically--we're using is essential...otherwise we may end up with a playing technique and style where everything is already "baked into a cake" and maybe it's not the flavor we would have chosen.

[christianm77]

2 additional issues on this 3-finger v. 4-finger debate

1. I don't understand why guitarists don't use straps. There is a youtube of Joe Diorio playing "All The Things You Are" where the gtr. is held high on his chest, almost as if he is "wearing the instrument". Take a look at Joe P....gtr. held high...both these guys can, and do, close their eyes and they KNOW where the instrument is...the strap holds it there. There is a video clip of some girl earlier on in this post where she is playing, sans strap, ....she is bouncing around. IMO, if you can't assume a playing position, close your eyes and PLAY, you're making your life a lot harder than it should be.

When I was a teenager, I was a pretty decent basketball player... team captain and MVP and set scoring records as a 9th grader...and we almost beat Roosevelt (the neighboring town where Doctor J. came from). My father put up a rim and backboard in our backyard, which was nice...until the spring rains came and the whole thing sank by about an inch....had to stop using it for practice...I'd got out on a regulation ht. rim (10') and my 19' and 21' foot jumpers were coming up short consistently...try to overcorrect and they were long....this is like practicing with a guitar where your hand positions (in any given position) are always changing....worried about neck balance?...easy fix---tie the end of the strap around the headstock...Wes M. did it...the fulcrum pt. is now in the middle of the body....concerns about head heavy guitars just disappear when you do this.

2. What about spread fingerings? Basic major scale using spread fingering starting on index....the bebop major 5, #5, 6 run is a whole lot easier to play than a scale form starting on the 2nd finger...Reg. just posted a big discussion of his fingerings, and a lot of these look like spread forms...can these be done with 3 fingers?...unless your name is Peter Parker (aka Spiderman), you're making your life harder than it needs to be.

Bottom line---nobody would say let's ban all slurs and slides on the guitar...that's ridiculous...seems to me both these techniques should be available...we just need to be aware of what our technique is predisposing us to do...really Jack Z. made a good very observation in his comment about how certain picking patterns are "rhythmically agnostic"...guitar playing is a physical act...and awareness of what "ingredients"--physically--we're using is essential...otherwise we may end up with a playing technique and style where everything is already "baked into a cake" and maybe it's not the flavor we would have chosen.

I like the guitar high. I experimented with using those guitar rests that go between the knee and the guitar, and it improved my posture. That said the ones with the suction cups don;t work very well for me...

I'm not sure if this relates exactly to what you are talking about, but rule #1 of three fingered club is that you never stretch or spread the hand further than around four frets. Instead, you shift.

That took me a while to get my head around - I use to be a stretcher. Now (I think) I play single note stuff with a much more close hand position and shift more. I'm still a four finger user though.

This is how Gypsy guys (and Marty Friedman wot used to be in Megadeth) play arpeggios.

For me, I feel that talking about being rhythmically agnostic and everything else is interesting and all, but technique is always a matter of compromise.

Bottom line for me - playing the guitar is a physical exercise. Rhythm is physical - the reason why samba swings the way it does is because of the way the sticks bounce on the Caixa, for example IIRC. Drummers understand this.

Perhaps were I fundamentally differ from some here, is that working to develop a 'perfect' omni-flexible transparent technique doesn't, in fact, interest me in the slightest. In part because no such technique exists IMO - but also because none of the players I really like seem, as far as I can tell, aspire to play this way.

They are all guitaristic players in their own way, which means that they work with the instrument rather than trying to 'iron it out.' Even if they are imitating another instrument to some extent - sax in the case of Charlie Christian or Jimmy Rainey - they do it in a super guitaristic way.

This is what I really like about Julian Lage's teaching. He's just happy to be playing a guitar, and has what he calls 'kinaesthetic curiosity' - and he uses four fingers and lots of shifts.

The question is - what are you hearing? And could playing a different way help you get closer to it? If hear something really clearly, often you will find technical solutions that surprise you and work really well. I can't emphasise that strongly enough.

Which is another way of saying what you said. I think you can bake a few cakes, and see what recipe works best. I don't want to bake an omni-cake, because some like carrot cake, but I like cheesecake. Hang on the metaphor is going wrong.

[goldenwave77]

I agree that there is NO perfect technique. See post # 181. Awareness and choice is the best we can do.

I guess the real point is to make sure we are playing the guitar, and that the guitar is not playing us.

I'm reminded of a "Honeymooners" episode where Ralph Cramden and Ed Norton are prepping to go on a musical quiz show, and they plan to split the prize money. Ed Norton is a viable piano player who knows a lot of tunes, and they spend all week with Ed playing the tunes, and Ralph learning the song titles (or refreshing his memory). The problem is....before every tune...Ed has to play a little 4-bar ditty before he can begin playing the real tune he is helping Ralph to learn. This goes on for 25 minutes with Ralph roaring at him every time Ed has to do this. But Ed can't help it; he can't begin playing anything without his little ditty.

Of course they go on the show...I think they get the first one correct...and then the next song comes up....and it is the little ditty....both of them are dumbfounded...and can't recall the name of it, because they've never thought about it.

[MarkRhodes]

I would describe this as a fairly classical left hand.

I thought so. But that's not what I do. Maybe if I'm doing an old-fashioned warm-up exercise (1234 on each string, for example), but when I start playing songs, that goes out the window. For good or ill, I just don't do that.

[christianm77]

I agree that there is NO perfect technique. See post # 181. Awareness and choice is the best we can do.

I guess the real point is to make sure we are playing the guitar, and that the guitar is not playing us.

I'm reminded of a "Honeymooners" episode where Ralph Cramden and Ed Norton are prepping to go on a musical quiz show, and they plan to split the prize money. Ed Norton is a viable piano player who knows a lot of tunes, and they spend all week with Ed playing the tunes, and Ralph learning the song titles (or refreshing his memory). The problem is....before every tune...Ed has to play a little 4-bar ditty before he can begin playing the real tune he is helping Ralph to learn. This goes on for 25 minutes with Ralph roaring at him every time Ed has to do this. But Ed can't help it; he can't begin playing anything without his little ditty.

Of course they go on the show...I think they get the first one correct...and then the next song comes up....and it is the little ditty....both of them are dumbfounded...and can't recall the name of it, because they've never thought about it.

I think you are absolutely right. I don't think technique is what this is about at the core. Technique is merely a manifestation of this, not the central issue, in fact. But if you are finding that your technique is not allowing you to play phrases that you want to - whether other people's from records or from your own imagination, then it probably needs work.

This might be from a teacher who has the sound you want and can teach it, or from your own explorations, or just watching the players you admire extremely carefully.

Incidentally that's why I think learning to play other people's music by ear is about the best technical training you can get.

It makes you do something that isn't the 'guitar playing you.'

Why by ear and not from the page? Because hearing something is a world away from seeing it and understanding it intellectually. Most guitar students do not hear music in their heads when they look at a page of music, although some do...

I think every professional jazz musician I know would endorse this statement, even if they might differ on the details - such as the value of playing a solo verbatim, for example (such as Henry Robinett.)

Anyway, I daresay I'm preaching to the choir here....