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Yeah baby. That’s the ticket. Twenty minutes a day over here. I’m not an etudes guy either but the bebop heads are where it’s at. I have a list I go through. One a day, pretty slow.
Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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06-02-2023 01:42 PM
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26-2 killed my technique. I had to rebuild lol.
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I spend some time every day doing a few scale/arpeggio exercises, some time practising the Donna Lee head and about ten minutes a day of the Presto from BWV 1001. But I ought to add Moose The Mooch, Dewey Square and a whole bunch of other bebop heads, you're right. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
I think Joel was a bit wary of the Guthrie book mainly because Guthrie doesn't really get involved in the mechanics. That was the impression I got. The alternate picking chapter does feature arpeggios and intervallic things... and funnily enough it ends with one-string exercises - so it ends with how it ought to start really, and it starts with a scale up and down, which is as we know quite a complex thing to alternate pick. So I think it's these things that Joel might have had in mind, GG's obvious natural facility means he was oblivious to aspects that mere mortals have to grapple with!
And very much agree with your comments regarding working on note placement, timing and swing more than sheer speed. But the latter has its place, if not for actually playing that fast, but just to give you headroom, I think the word is. But it's definitely true that learning jazz involves skills like connecting chords and so on, so an agile brain and reflexes are just as if not more important than sheer mechanical ability.
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Yeah the last show I saw before we left the city was Kurt at the Vanguard, this time last year. It was his first visit back to New York since COVID lockdowns and he was visibly excited. Stuff was still a little messy for obvious reasons, but he played 26-2 and it was absolute mayhem. One of the best moments of music I ever witnessed. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
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Can anyone suggest a how-to video for rest strokes? I know the definition and I can hear in Gypsy jazz the excellent articulation.
But, I'm still not clear on exactly how it works. I'm not conscious of rest vs free stroke in my own playing, although I think I do both, mostly free strokes.
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Well I don't have to be right. I just prefer to work on music and non guitar stuff always throws up interesting challenges. Plus I don't have time to practice things I won't either play on gigs or enjoy playing for the sake of it. Some my own music is a bit of a pig to play. I'll post some if anyones interested. Originally Posted by James W
Oh I see. That seems likely. TBH I don't really have huge amount of interest in GG, so can't comment. He seems like a cool guy who can play very musically and has a dazzling technique, and obviously a big influence on younger players.I think Joel was a bit wary of the Guthrie book mainly because Guthrie doesn't really get involved in the mechanics. That was the impression I got. The alternate picking chapter does feature arpeggios and intervallic things... and funnily enough it ends with one-string exercises - so it ends with how it ought to start really, and it starts with a scale up and down, which is as we know quite a complex thing to alternate pick. So I think it's these things that Joel might have had in mind, GG's obvious natural facility means he was oblivious to aspects that mere mortals have to grapple with!
You just need to practice the right stuff really. It all needs to get programmed in there. Lines and musical ideas rather than just scales and arpeggios, applying to tunes, combining and so on. Building your own lines when you have internalised the sound and feel.And very much agree with your comments regarding working on note placement, timing and swing more than sheer speed. But the latter has its place, if not for actually playing that fast, but just to give you headroom, I think the word is. But it's definitely true that learning jazz involves skills like connecting chords and so on, so an agile brain and reflexes are just as if not more important than sheer mechanical ability.
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If you’re on Instagram, Dan Wilson and Cecil Alexander have both recently done “how I pick” slow mo things and talk about their test stroke. It’s in the context of a more or lesson Benson-picking thing, but good to see. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
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I think they were on DC music as well.
Dan Wilson is making me want to pick more of my notes at the moment. And get a guitar/Rhodes/drums trio. His album Eternal Things is nice, very summery.
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I have done a few FWIW. This is more gypsy jazz oriented, there are other ways to rest stroke pick (such as Benson style, like Tony Rice or more electric like Eric Johnson) Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Search YouTube and there'll be bunch of videos so eventually hopefully someone's explanation will click.
My advice would be - practice the down rest strokes every day with absolute mindfulness, maybe on an open chord, and graduate to playing everything with downstrokes for a while. The upstroke can then be learned as an extension of the natural arm recovery.
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Thanks, Christian.
Here's another I found on youtube.
If I follow all of this correctly, it all seems to be related to the motion of skipping to the next thicker string.
In sweep picking you avoid changing the direction of the pick. If the pick was moving up on the E string, then it continues to move up on the B string. If the pick was moving down on the E string (high E) and the next note is on the B string, it's the same upstroke on the B string in sweep, or is that not correct?
In strict alternate, you alternate everything. Warren Nunes enhanced this with pulloffs and careful attention to left hand fingering to put more notes on the same string at times, facilitating both alternating and pulling off.
In Gypsy style, the pick goes to a downstroke on the next thicker string in all cases. When I first heard that they do that, I found it hard to believe. So fast and so clean while starting every lower string on a downstroke? Well, yeah. Great sound.
I heard the Django Festival All Stars in November. They had the audience on its feet and screaming -- which is not what I had come to expect from a purely instrumental jazz combo. Well deserved too. They were incredible.
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Yes. Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
Benson does this too. It’s not so much of an issue going up, but coming down it can be a challenge with certain combinations - even numbers of notes work well. A cheeky pull off can help a lot to simplify things.
But really the downstroke thing is an effect rather than a cause. The cause is the pick angle and the downstroke going inwards into the guitar. The upstroke comes outward from the guitar and is a free stroke. It just becomes quite hard physically to start a string on an upstroke. (Unless you do what Tony does and change things up a little with the fingers.)
The quality of motion is very important here
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I studied classical for a few years a long time ago. I was taught rest stroke. On classical rest stroke is an up-stroke, right? Most of the time at least.
With a pick, rest stroke is usually down-stroke and most conventional wisdom says it's stronger. Some folks say it's because of gravity, which doesn't really stand up for the classical rest stroke too well.
I find my upward rest stroke to be quite strong. Maybe it's because of pick angle? I think I might be an upward escape picker a lot of the time. I think that might be why I find upward sweeps easier. I think I tilt down a bit for downward sweeps. Maybe I'm a double escapist.
Anyways, I don't use rest strokes much as far as I know. From the beginning (55 years ago) I made a strong effort to get my upstrokes and downstrokes even and strong. I was strictly alternate for a few years and then I heard J. McL. Now it's all mixed up with economy or something. Sometimes my thumb and finger do most of the work and sometimes my wrist joins the party.
Anybody know where to get a cheap camera jig like Grady uses? If it was cheap enough it might be fun to see what I actually do. Not that I'm gonna change anything at this late stage.
Come to think of it... maybe not a good idea. It'd probably just confuse me and screw everything up. But at least I might be able to post about what I do to the guitar with more clarity :-)
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Okay.
Someone explain “escape” to me in this context.
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As I understand it it's how the pick 'escapes' the plane of the strings in order to get to or cross another. It's about the angle of the picking motion in the sense of angling down into the guitar or up away from it. So if you do a downward rest stoke you're trapped in the strings by the one you're resting on.
But as you can see from my earlier post I'm easily confused by picking terminology.
And I agree. Bebop heads are excellent. Also... Joe Henderson will stretch you in a little different direction. I'm into Isotope at the moment.
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First. there are two pick orientation dimensions with various names for their orientation. The simplest way to see those is to orient your pick flat in front of you with the pointy business end sticking toward you. If you image the pick as a baseball infield, everything can be labeled. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
- home plate is the pointy end
- 2nd base is the middle of the back edge
- 1st and 3rd base lines are the right and left edges
So now the two axes of rotation can be defined.
- rotation around the line between 1st and 3rd elevates or depresses the pointy end relative to 2nd base. This is the one involved in "escape".
- rotation around the line between home and 2nd tilts the pick to elevate or depress 1st and 3rd relative to each other. This is the one that mutes tone by including more pick edge on the stroke but is also used to help "escape" by presenting a more blunt edge profile in the direction of motion.
The wording problem is that most assume you know what they mean when using pick angle, pick slant, pick tilt, pick turn, pick twist, etc. without being clear about which axis is involved, and distinguishing the polarity of down angle vs up angle... (does down angle mean the point is down or the back end is down?)
It is easy to be precise by simply describing the relative elevation of 1st and 3rd, and home and 2nd... that fully describes both orientations. There is a third orientation that I don't see mentioned (the flat rotation of the pick around a line perpendicular through the pitcher's mound) but if necessary that can be described by your own position of view being behind either of the dugouts, rather than behind the umpire.
For those of us that hold the pick with very little sticking out the escape thing may be a non-issue. The way I hold the pick, the 3rd baseline runs through the middle of my grip and the pick tip is actually even with the tip of my index and about 4mm past the side of my thumb tip. Clearance increases when I move my index and thumb to pick. Hopping or crossing string to string is part of the movement.
I think escape with respect to rest strokes is based on using a pick orientation where the tip of the pick is elevated relative to 2nd base (the tip is pointing up at you a little). This insures that the down stroke lets the pick slide off the picked string and hit the next string. However, now the pick tip is under the plane of the strings and still pointing up a little. If your next move is to a bigger string your motion won't slip out between the strings easily, but will hang up on the string you just played. Escape is a change in the motion to clear that just played string. I think the change may be to both the down stroke and the escape - the angle of attack being elevated to insure the pick does get stopped by the next string (rest stroke), and then the same angle of retreat is used to withdraw the pick and clear the just played string... I think the reason it works is because the ending rest stroke position is shifted from the attack by the distance between the strings (get it?), so the retreat is also shifted and that distance between the strings becomes the clearance on the way out. I could be totally wrong, but that is my best sense of how it works.
You can see that the amount of pick sticking out from your grip, the amount of pick extending below the string plane, and the pick angle all allow and determine if your pick path back out will clear the picked string.
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Interesting.. I started classical when I was about 9-10 years old. And I was taught rest strokes from the very beginning. Originally Posted by Christian Miller
And one of the first pieces that I played was a famous beginner piece - Romance by Gomez (funny thing is that I still can play most pieces I played those days by heart but have problems to learn something new))).
So it was used as a study where you play the melody with the rest strokes with your 3rd finger ('a') all the way and other fingers play accompaniment with free strokes.
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Downward rest stroke with a pick is similar to thumb rest stroke on classical guitar or lute.As I understand it it's how the pick 'escapes' the plane of the strings in order to get to or cross another. It's about the angle of the picking motion in the sense of angling down into the guitar or up away from it. So if you do a downward rest stoke you're trapped in the strings by the one you're resting on.
In my opinion the crucial formula is that 'you do not pick or pluck the string - you press it towards the top and downwards and then let it go'.
In reality of course you make some picking because on instruments with such a high tension it is difficult to make a string sound just by letting it go (on lute it is possible) but anyway I would suggest the the formula should be the same.
Because it is a kind of 'minimum force application', the softest picking possible. If one achieves a good control over it - one can handle more powerful strokes easily.
As for 'trapping'... it is not a trap really.
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That’s likely. A good example of a guitarist who leans this way is Peter Bernstein. Originally Posted by ccroft
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I do feel the biggest advantage of the rest stoke is its dynamic range. Originally Posted by Jonah
With a pick it’s hard to move down a string (physically upward) with the pick on the other side of a string after a downstroke. There are ways around it but it’s a real challenge with gypsy picking. I use a small flex of my finger joints to reposition the pick slightly.
for fingerstyle it’s a moot point. Just use another finger:Last edited by Christian Miller; 06-03-2023 at 03:53 AM.
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I do not use rest strokes and, after skimming this thread, I doubt that will change. It seems very complicated and I am still not sure what it is supposed to achieve.
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Personally, using a rest stroke enabled my picking hand to relax because rather than apply the brakes and start going in the reverse direction after having picked the string wholly from my own sense of physical judgement (which is faulty) instead I didn't/don't have to think about that if I know I can let the physical sensation of the plectrum bouncing off an adjacent string decide at which point it goes in the reverse direction i.e. escapes. It also means the pick stroke is more likely to be a straight in and out rather than a curved one which is liable to be not very graceful i.e. 'string hop', though it has to be said that a double-escape motion is also curved but is a more relaxed, quicker and more efficient than string-hopping (the fact that double-escape is on the face of it similar to string-hopping and can't be aided by a rest stroke are two of the reasons for its difficulty, at least for me). Originally Posted by Litterick
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Zoinks. Originally Posted by James W
That’s intense.
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Yeah. I do realize this kind of examination is helpful to some, but maybe now you see why I said before that getting that camera jig might just blow me to bits. Originally Posted by pamosmusic
I didn't learn to pick. I just kinda made it happen by feel, and now I'm stuck with it. Feels pretty good, whatever it is...
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And that's the important thing. Funny thing is, while Troy Grady presents a lot of material which is definitely interesting, in practical terms he kind of undoes a lot of that convoluted analysis since the practical advice is as far as I can tell is to use the rest stroke if playing something with a specific escape - otherwise, go fast and experiment with lots of different variables to discover what feels right. Witness how at one point there was something they called two-way pick-slanting but it wasn't overly successful as a pedagogical tool, thus they abandoned it and adopted the method I just described - One-page explainer on playing scales with alternate picking — overview of what we know! - Playing Technique - The Cracking the Code Forum (troygrady.com) Originally Posted by ccroft
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I remember hearing about 'two way pick slanting'. Isn't that 'double escape' like Molly?
I think he really is just trying to help people, but it's a difficult thing to codify and it gets pretty messy pretty fast. Just look at what folks go thru to try and describe pick angles and motions: Paul's baseball diamond or Troys clock. I think it's clear to them what they're saying but often times it takes a lot of effort me to get it. And those devices don't seem to touch on the other variables like arm and wrist positions, neck angles and so on.
If I had to teach a beginner how to pick a string I'd be completely useless.
I think this little quote from one of his posts in that forum link explains what he's up to pretty well:
...the problem is when there is no particular “way that works for you” or is “natural for you”. I spent six years not knowing what is natural. Then another ten thinking the one way I had discovered was the only way...
I got lucky I guess. I didn't go thru anything like that. 16 years in I was playing better than I am now in terms of technique.
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