Anyone not use rest strokes?

[Christian Miller]

Do different classical pianists play with vastly different technique? It's a real question -- I don't know the answer.

Well we’re coming up against the limits of my knowledge here. There are different schools. To take two ends of the spectrum, there is the Russian school which is all about arm weight and power afaik. Those pianists make a huge acoustic sound.

On the other extreme you have Barry Harris who depressed the key only enough to make the mechanism work. Anything more than that was wasted effort in his opinion. He could certainly be heard but the sound was Misty and intimate.

of course a proper pianist could correct me. But the basic point is there are different schools of technique. There are also in classical guitar, some don’t teach apoyando at all regarding it as unnecessary for instance.

I do know, though, that different great guitarists play with vastly different right hand technique.

Here are a few that come to mind.

Lenny Breau -- three fingers, iirc.
Romero Lubambo -- two fingers
Charlie Christian -- all downstrokes
Wes -- thumb only, most downstrokes
Metheny -- light pick, partially folded, lots of slurs
Benson -- held pick backwards (I won't try to explain it).
Bruno -- sweep
Warren Nunes -- fashioned his own picks which were curved to hug the pad of his thumb and played alternate and pulloffs.
etc.
Chuck Wayne -- sweep with a small teardrop pick and focused on 3nps.

How much of this was physiology?

One thing that seems clear: there's no one right way.

If I were still teaching guitar, I would take a look at pencil grip. If it was unusual, I would take care to make sure the picking technique was optimal for the individual, if I could figure out how to do that.

Just to be clear in terms btw - when I say gypsy jazz picking I mean something very specific - floating wrist, movement coming from forearm for downstroke, angled wrist etc. GJ picking is a subset of Rest stroke picking. Rest stoke picking approaches also include Benson picking and Wes thumb style. Just so I’m clear and it’s not confusing.

So Chuck Wayne founded an entire school of pickers that include Pasquale and Ben Monder. Others were less interested In this type of thing.

I feel Wayne’s approach trades off projection and tone in favour of sheer speed and flexibility. There’s always a trade off. Indeed there is no single correct way to do it, perhaps not even a clearly superior approach, whatever the marketing says haha. strict GJ picking is bit useless for fast descending arpeggios, for instance (which is less of a problem than you might think).

I would regard CW and GJ picking as similar in that they are specific schools and they are manifestly teachable. That’s sort of important to me because I want to have things to teach for those go struggle with their picking. I find CW to sound a bit dogmatic as a teacher from accounts, but at least he had a plan, and it works! It’s better than shrugging and going ‘it’s physiology everyone’s different’ (sorry to strawman you there) which is true but unhelpful for someone who is struggling to play bop lines or whatever.

Some comments - Wes was basically a gypsy picker without a pick. Again, he tends to play ascending arpeggios and descend stepwise. He does slur quite a bit (which would be unusual for GJ or GB style picker) but the upstrokes he uses with the thumb are outward from the guitar, and really do have to follow a downstroke on the same string. Try it! There’s some great footage where you can get a really good look a this right hand. I fear the camera operator may have been a guitar player and I am eternally grateful (I’ll track it down.)

I don’t think it was said Christian used only downstrokes? I think that was more a Billy Bauer thing? Hard to know what he did for sure, but his lines are a really good fit for rest stoke picking.

tbh even if they didn’t study it, I think some type of rest stroke picking naturally emerges if you learn trying to make as much sound as you can on an acoustic guitar when playing with others or in noisy environments. Joe Pass for instance used it and I don’t think it was taught to him.

nowadays players learn on electric so projection is less important and they learn free stroke picking. But that’s not to say there aren’t a load of rest stroke picking electric players, the most famous being Hendrix, but also Eric Johnson and Yngwie.

[Christian Miller]

I've posted before about refingering the left hand to accommodate the needs of the pick.

Warren Nunes dealt with the descending problem by using pull-offs -- and refingering things to faciliate that.

For example, if he wanted to play a descending Am7 arpeggio, he might do this: G on E string, 3rd fret. Then E on the G string at the 9th fret. Pull-off to the C and pick the A (D string). And Warren was blazingly fast.

A sweep picker wouldn't have to do that.

Of course, it would be very difficult, I should think, for a sweeper to get Warren's jackhammer attack.

You're saying that the Gypsy players do something analogous. Which is, using even numbers of notes per string in order to avoid, if I understand it, going from a downstroke on one string to a downstroke on the next thicker string. I would assume that has become a element in the overall sound of the solos.

Interesting discussion.

Yes. if you transcribe you’ll hear that Django and the players that follow him tend not to play descending arpeggios much. If you add in a note and play, for example a descending m6-pent (1 b3 4 5 6 1) it works a lot easier than a m6 arpeggio.

there are naturally, exceptions. Listen to the B of Django’s Waltz here (that Django never recorded iirc) which contains some blazing descending arps. The A is full of classic gypsy jazz-isms. Note the ascending arps with sweeping motions and descending alt picked scales.

I notice in the B to execute the descending arpeggio he changes his wrist position slightly - I think he breaks the ‘rules’ here for a moment. You see Bireli Lagrene do the same thing a lot; but Bireli is understood to know longer to be a pure GJ picker (although it’s the basic foundation of his approach.)

[Litterick]

I don’t think it was said Christian used only downstrokes? I think that was more a Billy Bauer thing? Hard to know what he did for sure, but his lines are a really good fit for rest stoke picking.

Barney Kessel reportedly said, in Guitar Player for October 1970,

"....Charlie played probably 95% downstrokes, and held a very stiff, big triangular pick very tightly between his thumb and first finger. He rested his 2nd, 3rd and 4th fingers on the pick-guard. He anchored them there so tensely that it was like there almost wasn't a break in the joint. He almost never used the 4th finger of his left hand."

But also, 'according to one online poster, "BK amended his estimate to around 70% downstrokes in his last interview in October 2001."'

[mr. beaumont]

90% of statistics are made up, anyway.

[timmer]

Descending is a different beast. You want to alternate pick as much as possible which means if you start on a downstroke you want even numbers of notes across strings. If you listen to Django or those that followed him, and Benson for that matter, you’ll notice the descending runs tend to be even numbers of notes per string - often pentatonics, m6 pents or chromatic runs. You can massage things a bit by using pull offs too.

I've been playing around with reverse (upward) rest strokes, not just for swept arpeggios, but any line that is mainly descending. Doesn't feel very natural yet, but it is trippy to have that same fluid economy picked experience in the other direction.

Of course this is not really two-way economy picking. It is "double one-way" economy. In a real world line that has a lot of back and forth to it, I wouldn't attempt it.

[rpjazzguitar]

I think it's interesting that a player who is trying to increase his speed won't necessarily naturally gravitate to the approach that suits his physiology. But, there is some, maybe ample, evidence that that isn't (typically?) the way it works. Otherwise, we might have great Gypsy jazz players who don't use standard Gypsy picking -- or do we?

You can't teach a non-dynamic-tripod pencil user to switch to dynamic tripod. It won't work. I don't see why picking would be any different.
Perhaps the issue is that there is no research on this aspect of picking, so there's no way to diagnose a potential problem and prescribe a picking approach that maximizes the student's ability.

Over the years, I've studied alternate, sweep and then Warren Nunes style. I wasn't exposed to Gypsy style until recently and I haven't worked on it -- it just doesn't feel natural and, apparently, it isn't optimized for the lines I want to play. I could never master sweep picking, and I tried for years. I can play Warren style, but I never got fast with his style or any other. I ended up thinking, well, not everybody can do it.

It also seems to me that your picking technique has a significant influence over what you play when you improvise. Chuck Wayne was fast and floaty. Warren soloed like a jackhammer. Metheny played a lot of un-picked notes. Charlie Christian was not a speed demon (maybe the music then didn't require it). I think Jimmy Bruno is a sweep picker who seems to be able to get any sound he wants at any speed. Chico Pinheiro too. The Gypsy players, I'm now learning, select notes based on what the picking technique supports.

I'm also wondering if any player who can play his own stuff fast -- can play virtually anything else equally fast. That is, can Donna Lee be played at say 240bpm with any of these techniques (well maybe not all downstrokes or thumb only)? Or, if you want to play anything at all really fast, are you better off with sweep?

[Christian Miller]

Well all professional jazz guitarists seem to have a take on DL so I think, yes. But that’s working on music. You have to be able to play composed music to play music professionally. Some of that music will challenge and stretch you technique. I think professional jazz guitar players need to have bop heads under their fingers, DL an obvious one. It’s interesting to see the different ways they go about it.

Gj picking does not feel natural at first btw.

[Christian Miller]

Neither is it true (for me) that I find my own music easy to play. Here’s an example.



This is a pain in the bum. Why did I write it?

[timmer]

7/8? Neo-bop metal?

[rpjazzguitar]

Neither is it true (for me) that I find my own music easy to play. Here’s an example.



This is a pain in the bum. Why did I write it?

Hijacking the thread:

I learned to read without ever seeing a time signature change. When I finally saw one, I was confused.

7/8. seven beats per measure, eighth note gets one beat.

3/4. three beats per measure, quarter note gets one beat.

Which beat is that?, I thought. If I was tapping my foot on eighths in 7/8, and then it changes to 3/4 (and I keep tapping my foot at the same pace) are those taps now each a quarter note?

What I ended up figuring out, which I hope is right, is to think this way. 7/8 is 3.5/4 (or [3 and 1/2] / 4). Switch to 4/4, your foot doesn't change and the quarter note stays the same too. Goes to 3/4 -- same thing.; quarter note stays the same, just fewer of them.

Then I saw a chart in 8/8 which goes to 4/4 double time.

I think you start in what amounts to 4/4 with a certain feel and then doubles in speed.

Some tunes go into triplets and then the triplet becomes a quarter or a half note -- and then back to the original time. Even guys who can read typical big band horn charts may need to discuss this.

[ccroft]

Well we’re coming up against the limits of my knowledge here...

WTF? Now what...

[pauln]

WTF? Now what...

Yeah, I had to shake my head and reread that line twice

[Christian Miller]

L

Hijacking the thread:

I learned to read without ever seeing a time signature change. When I finally saw one, I was confused.

7/8. seven beats per measure, eighth note gets one beat.

3/4. three beats per measure, quarter note gets one beat.

Which beat is that?, I thought. If I was tapping my foot on eighths in 7/8, and then it changes to 3/4 (and I keep tapping my foot at the same pace) are those taps now each a quarter note?

What I ended up figuring out, which I hope is right, is to think this way. 7/8 is 3.5/4 (or [3 and 1/2] / 4). Switch to 4/4, your foot doesn't change and the quarter note stays the same too. Goes to 3/4 -- same thing.; quarter note stays the same, just fewer of them.

Then I saw a chart in 8/8 which goes to 4/4 double time.

I think you start in what amounts to 4/4 with a certain feel and then doubles in speed.

Some tunes go into triplets and then the triplet becomes a quarter or a half note -- and then back to the original time. Even guys who can read typical big band horn charts may need to discuss this.

in terms of this tune that’s correct. We move from a 7/8 straight pulse to a 7/4 swing in the bridge. The tune is recorded on my album as Bib Soup if you want to listen.

It’s nice because the 7/4 feels very natural after the 7/8. But mostly the head is a pig to finger and articulate (for me at least)

[Christian Miller]

7/8? Neo-bop metal?

Bartok bop? Not sure really tbh.

[dot75]

Bartok bop? Not sure really tbh.

Somebody (Lennie Tristano ? ) recorded a bunch of Bartok as a jazz album - Google not helping

Am I making this up?

'Thumb Under'

[Litterick]

Chick Corea’s Children’s Songs were inspired by Bartók’s piano etudes, Mikrokosmos.

[rpjazzguitar]

L

in terms of this tune that’s correct. We move from a 7/8 straight pulse to a 7/4 swing in the bridge. The tune is recorded on my album as Bib Soup if you want to listen.

It’s nice because the 7/4 feels very natural after the 7/8. But mostly the head is a pig to finger and articulate (for me at least)

So, the quarter note stays the same? And you go from 3.5 quarters in a bar to 7 quarters.

[Christian Miller]

So, the quarter note stays the same? And you go from 3.5 quarters in a bar to 7 quarters.

Yes

[Christian Miller]

Very clear Troy video on electric rest stroke picking as opposed to acoustic/gypsy

mechanically this feels very different to the technique I described above, but it operates on similar principles.

[bediles]

Very clear Troy video on electric rest stroke picking as opposed to acoustic/gypsy

mechanically this feels very different to the technique I described above, but it operates on similar principles.

My bad if this is something you already know.

He's updated his teaching on USX since this vid came out. This is the lightly supinated strict wrist deviation form (pad side pick grip, pinkie pad anchor point) is the one in the vid. The CtC crew call it 9 to 3 o'clock motion bc the motion describes the clock face when you stick your hand out in front of you, palm down. USX can also be a 8 to 2 or 7 to 1 motion depending on the amount of forearm supination. You can also sort of simulate this motion without the guitar with your hand palm down on a table and move through the various level of supination from palm down to scratching a lottery ticket with a coin to writing with a pencil.

Also, the wrist only vs forearm/wrist has been demonstrated too with the latter being more on the supinated side. Likely a blend of 8 to 2 wrist motion (called reverse dart thrower) and some forearm rotation.

Here's a link of wrist vs wrist + forearm:
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[Christian Miller]

I find this text very hard to understand intuitively.

[bediles]

I find this text very hard to understand intuitively.

I guess my reply was a bit of a non-sequitur from the feeling of acoustic vs electric rest stroke picking.

My point was only just to illustrate that picking where the motion comes from the wrist doesn't have to be pure wrist deviation.

The clock face stuff helps I think because when you look at players that pick this way face on, it just looks like their hand is moving back and forth. But actually there's a spectrum of mechanics from pure deviation to a fair bit of wrist flexion and extention with a little deviation and corresponding pick grips to facilitate string contact. In the vid, Troy supinates his arm and says he would have to then introduce some forearm to reach the strings when in fact he could have just changed the way he held the pick.

As for the rest of it, removing the hand from the guitar is quite illustrative and further, finding analogous movements in everyday life helps to understand what movements are actually happening.

Further, the wrist + forearm rotation vs wrist was just to link that fun vid to show the differences.

[Christian Miller]

I guess my reply was a bit of a non-sequitur from the feeling of acoustic vs electric rest stroke picking.

My point was only just to illustrate that picking where the motion comes from the wrist doesn't have to be pure wrist deviation.

The clock face stuff helps I think because when you look at players that pick this way face on, it just looks like their hand is moving back and forth. But actually there's a spectrum of mechanics from pure deviation to a fair bit of wrist flexion and extention with a little deviation and corresponding pick grips to facilitate string contact. In the vid, Troy supinates his arm and says he would have to then introduce some forearm to reach the strings when in fact he could have just changed the way he held the pick.

As for the rest of it, removing the hand from the guitar is quite illustrative and further, finding analogous movements in everyday life helps to understand what movements are actually happening.

Further, the wrist + forearm rotation vs wrist was just to link that fun vid to show the differences.

I think it’s hard to go side to side with the wrist (deviation?). It helps to engage different muscle groups on the downstroke and recovery/upstroke, stops the motion from going into spasm and keeps it relaxed. That was something they were very clear about in gypsy jazz picking.

If anything it’s a feeling.

EDIT: I watched the video finally. Yes I use wrist + forearm. Wrist only can go into spasm. I think it’s striking how much less comfortable the wrist deviation variant looks although Troy can play impressively this way .

[James W]

Yeah, I think it's good to be as flexible as possible with one's technique so that this filters through to one's improvising. I know that even with a double-escape technique you still have to practice ideas/patterns etc. but it does seem to be the more flexible kind of mechanic. A little while ago I decided to add a few patterns from Guthrie Govan's book Advanced Techniques into my practice schedule - of course, there is no mention of rest strokes or pick slanting in this book but given what we know about technique now, many of the ideas presented in the alternate picking chapter would have to be played with a double-escape motion. When I had a few lessons with Joel Bell a few years ago and I mentioned Guthrie's book he was a bit wary about it telling me that Guthrie is a virtuoso etc. etc. that may be so but it doesn't mean these things can't be worked on (but I credit Joel as being the person who first made me aware of Troy Grady's stuff). Likewise some of Jens Larsen's material for advancing one's picking technique presupposes a double-escape mechanic. So I like to practice all kinds of material from lines that are specifically idiomatic for particular escape picking to ones that are mixed AKA double escape. Both approaches are worth working on.

In this quoted post of mine FWIW I realise talking about having a flexible technique I probably got from this video: