Brilliant or stupid question - Why did Joe Pass use a pick?

[rpjazzguitar]

Now and then you hear somebody play something better than you thought possible.

[deacon Mark]

As a lifelong disciple of the Joe Pass and this schooling of playing Joe simply played tunes. He could improvise and use fingers only, hybrid, and pick only, depending on what he was playing and feeling musically. If you listen to his fingerstyle recording of the tune Beautiful Love, he simply takes the tune to a level few can match. The only thing Joe said he did not do was the Chet Atkins thing, alternating bass and thumb in a pure Travis-Atkins style. He made no apologies and said he did not like that he preferred the bass walking and going in an out. He also did not play in the classical style of fingers like Segovia, at least to my knowledge. I never heard any pure classical playing on his recordings.

Joe Pass - Beautiful Love - Bing video

That said Joe was a stylist like Wes Montgomery. He developed a purely original sound that is best heard on the original Virtuoso recording from 1973. That is a landmark recording done by someone who feared nothing. He came in and sat down and played. That level of playing puts him into something that rarely anyone touches in mastery of anything musically. I believe if Joe wanted to he could have played or learned to do anything on the guitar. In the end Joe was about tunes and melodies. While he could smoke and shred as they say, he never like to jam he always wanted to play a tune and melodies.

As a young 12-year-old guitarist in 1974 listening to Virtuoso in the back room of my grandmother's house on a record player it was like heard the Gospel preached and then it takes a lifetime to figure out. Not being talented I took too long to figure out that I needed to learn tunes and melodies and make music. Speed, shredding, scales, arps, are all valid things to do and practice but in the end we play melodies. My feeling is that some days i just pick up the guitar and play only with my fingers. Other days I play really only with a pick. I combine the pick and fingers all the time. No need to drop any of these skills from the arsenal of weapons need to make music. Some days you need an F-35 or F-22. Other days you have to break out those every old but very proven B-52's to get the job done.

Joe needed to get the job done................he had the weapons.

[kris]

"Why did Joe Pass ues pick?"
simple answer:
Because he loved to play the guitar.

[starjasmine]

Interesting... this guitarist doesn't play with a clean sound on this video.

Here are some clips where he plays with a clean tone.

Longer version, live

A transcription!

BTW, I understand from some of his interviews that MM's RH technique is self-taught. He doesn't use "legit" classical technique all the time. This is a pretty good interview:

HTH

SJ

[kris]

[Christian Miller]

As a lifelong disciple of the Joe Pass and this schooling of playing Joe simply played tunes. He could improvise and use fingers only, hybrid, and pick only, depending on what he was playing and feeling musically. If you listen to his fingerstyle recording of the tune Beautiful Love, he simply takes the tune to a level few can match. The only thing Joe said he did not do was the Chet Atkins thing, alternating bass and thumb in a pure Travis-Atkins style. He made no apologies and said he did not like that he preferred the bass walking and going in an out. He also did not play in the classical style of fingers like Segovia, at least to my knowledge. I never heard any pure classical playing on his recordings.

Joe Pass - Beautiful Love - Bing video

That said Joe was a stylist like Wes Montgomery. He developed a purely original sound that is best heard on the original Virtuoso recording from 1973. That is a landmark recording done by someone who feared nothing. He came in and sat down and played. That level of playing puts him into something that rarely anyone touches in mastery of anything musically. I believe if Joe wanted to he could have played or learned to do anything on the guitar. In the end Joe was about tunes and melodies. While he could smoke and shred as they say, he never like to jam he always wanted to play a tune and melodies.

As a young 12-year-old guitarist in 1974 listening to Virtuoso in the back room of my grandmother's house on a record player it was like heard the Gospel preached and then it takes a lifetime to figure out. Not being talented I took too long to figure out that I needed to learn tunes and melodies and make music. Speed, shredding, scales, arps, are all valid things to do and practice but in the end we play melodies. My feeling is that some days i just pick up the guitar and play only with my fingers. Other days I play really only with a pick. I combine the pick and fingers all the time. No need to drop any of these skills from the arsenal of weapons need to make music. Some days you need an F-35 or F-22. Other days you have to break out those every old but very proven B-52's to get the job done.

Joe needed to get the job done................he had the weapons.

I think I prefer to be an F18 or
F15E and have one technique that suits a few different roles; at least well enough for what I need.

[kris]

I think I prefer to be an F18 or
F15E and have one technique that suits a few different roles; at least well enough for what I need.

I guess it's better to be a new iPhone model.

[Christian Miller]

I guess it's better to be a new iPhone model.

Im a Nokia 3210 and proud of it

[deacon Mark]

I think I prefer to be an F18 or
F15E and have one technique that suits a few different roles; at least well enough for what I need.

Not sure what that means. How do you normally play, pick or fingers?

[Christian Miller]

Not sure what that means. How do you normally play, pick or fingers?

Well since you brought up the military aviation analogy, matching aircraft to mission... so these are true multirole combat aircraft (actually so is the F35) that can do most things.

So I want something that can deal with a wide spectrum of mission profiles. In my case I chose to play with a pick. I mean I can play finger style, but I've worked very hard at being able to do what I do with a pick (with some hybrid picking) because I don't like the idea of using different techniques for different situations because I feel that would create a discontinuity in my playing.

OTOH Joe Pass changed technique without any problem... so it's not the right path for everyone. But its what I feel most comfortable with going from duo and solo gigs to ensemble things and do so without too much compromise.

[st.bede]

Well since you brought up the military aviation analogy, matching aircraft to mission... so these are true multirole combat aircraft (actually so is the F35) that can do most things.

So I want something that can deal with a wide spectrum of mission profiles. In my case I chose to play with a pick. I mean I can play finger style, but I've worked very hard at being able to do what I do with a pick (with some hybrid picking) because I don't like the idea of using different techniques for different situations because I feel that would create a discontinuity in my playing.

OTOH Joe Pass changed technique without any problem... so it's not the right path for everyone. But its what I feel most comfortable with going from duo and solo gigs to ensemble things and do so without too much compromise.

That as been my overall theory. I dedicated myself to hybrid picking with free strokes for my whole guitar life. I decided if people can become pretty good at using the c finger, then why shouldn’t I just develop that, and use it as if it was the a finger. I worked through a chunk of the Noad book a couple times.

I ended up in guitar class to try and force myself to read for guitar. (I can read solid for theory, from the days of piano and flute, but I could never really force myself to read on guitar). It was a non-pick type of thing. The correct angle of the hand seems to have more control, and is more comfortable, then having your wrist smashed down from holding a pick. Also no matter how much I have worked on the c finger, it just always sucks.

I have a couple thoughts: if I can get enough speed with fingers, why use a pick. Also, I can always put the pick down and pick it up… typically, you can musically put in a little space. I would just put the pick in my mouth, but my paranoia tells me I would end up inhaling the pick.

Also, we all have bags. I practice stuff that can not be used well in all situations.

Ultimately the question is about voice and freedom.

[timmer]

But circling back to the question of fingers vs picking for single-note lines...I find that not only is it difficult to get the notes rhythmically even with fingers, but I also have the "staccato" problem. If playing multiple notes on a string, the previous note will get muted for a bit of time before the attack of the new note comes in. I suppose that's yet another reason for going legato.

[Christian Miller]

That as been my overall theory. I dedicated myself to hybrid picking with free strokes for my whole guitar life. I decided if people can become pretty good at using the c finger, then why shouldn’t I just develop that, and use it as if it was the a finger. I worked through a chunk of the Noad book a couple times.

I ended up in guitar class to try and force myself to read for guitar. (I can read solid for theory, from the days of piano and flute, but I could never really force myself to read on guitar). It was a non-pick type of thing. The correct angle of the hand seems to have more control, and is more comfortable, then having your wrist smashed down from holding a pick. Also no matter how much I have worked on the c finger, it just always sucks.

I have a couple thoughts: if I can get enough speed with fingers, why use a pick. Also, I can always put the pick down and pick it up… typically, you can musically put in a little space. I would just put the pick in my mouth, but my paranoia tells me I would end up inhaling the pick.

Also, we all have bags. I practice stuff that can not be used well in all situations.

Ultimately the question is about voice and freedom.

I quite like the limitation of just using a pick. Accepting a limitation can force you to be creative sometimes.

[deacon Mark]

The pick for me affords a very clear sound and attack that i have never heard with the fingers only. The only exception is Paco De Lucia who on a nylon string guitar could sound as good as anyone with fingers. He also had more speed than anyone I know and could keep up.

When I think of the pick I just get the sound of Pat Martino in my ears and you cannot get his sound and attack with fingers. Never has anyone done it. That said I think the great of them as Lenny Breau who maybe well have been the best all around stylist ever. I have never heard anyone touch him for what he did.

[ronjazz]

Pass did a lot of classical practicing out of the Carcassi Method, but I recall him telling me that he did some of those exercises with a pick as well as fingers.

[Christian Miller]

Yeah - practice arpeggios with the pick, fast lines and runs with the fingers right? Playing Carcassi with a pick is probably great practice for cross picking.

both have their comfort zone but the temptation is to swap over when the going gets tough. Joe had all the bases covered either way.

[ragman1]

why did Joe Pass use a pick?

Because he wanted to.

[rpjazzguitar]

I recently watched a 30 or so year old video of Romero Lubambo and Herbie Mann playing a song called Dry Land.

Romero, still around with a new album about to come out, plays astonishing single note runs with fingers on an electric steel string. Like Matteo, give or take, meaning, better than I thought it could be done.

Chico Pinheiro can play with fingers or pick , and chooses, often, to use a pick. And he's got that magic trick down of secreting the pick in your hand while you fingerpick and then going back to the pick instantaneously, never dropping the pick.

I think it's because it's hard to get them to sound identical.

[Marc Grossman]

IMO, for single line playing, the sound with a pick is clearer, more articulate, quicker, and far superior. The sound with one's fingers is dull and uneven for single lines.

I also think the pick is superior for rhythm playing as well. Try doing what Roy Clark does on Malaguena, or what John Pizzarelli does on After Youve Gone with ones fingers.

I prefer the sound of chord melody with a pick as well, although, using ones fingers is useful for arpeggiated chord melody. The fingers are also good for bossa nova.

[st.bede]

I quite like the limitation of just using a pick. Accepting a limitation can force you to be creative sometimes.

I agree. I think in the long run what is a person weakness becomes their strength, and the opposite is true.

Limitations always exist. Those limitations when confronted creatively, create a person’s voice.

[kris]

Is there any recording of John McLaughlin playing without pick?

[Litterick]

Not that I know.

[ragman1]

Players like him are a pain in the neck

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

I don’t recognize the guitar player in the house band on that Tonight Show vid. Does anybody know who he is?

[Litterick]

Peter Woodford, I think.