Cecil Alexander picking technique

[bediles]

Long and the short of it:

Things that I wonder about: Is Reg's (from the forum) fundimental technique (the actual motion) that different from Cecil's or let's say Sebastien Giniaux's?

[Christian Miller]

Interesting about your experience with both grips. I wonder if you move the same way with each grip?

I don’t think so. But I found it really easy to switch to underhand. In fact I was able to do it immediately from Gypsy picking. So they are obivously similar.

the hardest thing was ensuring the pick didn’t turn (a common problem) so I cheated and used two fingers. So that’s why I don’t call it benson picking.

As far as underhand vs conventional pick grips there's also a number of motion mechanics associated. Seems like Django style players are taught a rotational mechanic similar to putting out a match while the benson pickers all have slightly different mechanics but some are very similar to Django style.

Actually the way I learned GJ picking was the whole arm translates downwards and the upstroke only is made with a rotation. GJ picking is really concerned with acoustic projection though. That can’t be overstated.

In fact when I was playing acoustic guitar that’s what stopped me going over completely. Couldn’t get the sound with underhand. I don’t know how Giniaux does it. So I was stuck with two techniques. Come the pandemic I decided to do everything trad grip and make myself play that way. But I still reflexively go back to underhand often because it feels so natural.

Nowadays I don’t know what I do mechanics wise. Im not so interested in acoustic projection so I’m moving to a more electric technique that permits muting etc. Probably more rotation, some compound motions. I think I’m transition atm. My picking is great for lines but it doesn’t support me for hybrid stuff that I want to do for counterpoint and so on.

Underhand picking uses perhaps more ‘door knocking.’

There's also the degree of arm supination that could change the motion used for example, Dan Wilson is more supinated than Cecil, his wrist motion may have more flexion/extension than deviation.

I keep bringing this up bc I think the actual movement the wrist or arm makes plays a big role in the ease of technique, relaxation etc and there seems to be a forearm rotational aspect to all these underhand player's forms too which makes me think it's closer to gypsy picking than I previously thought.

Yeah. Again I think of physical freedom. It’s not so much ‘use this movement’ or ‘use this stance’ it’s more that there’s a range of movement you can use which as Tuck Andress noted is increased by using the benson grip. Again the pick sort of glides across the strings which helps. In trad stance rest stroke picking such as Gypsy picking it’s more the inclination of the pick that allows the sweeping movement it so it seems to me the pick can get trapped behind a string and upsweeps require a change of stance. With underhand you can just swipe through the string NBD.

Picking one string very fast is a different type of motion to playing an arpeggio for instance. I kind of think of it as learning a series of gestures that work with your body. Arpeggio is one gesture, descending scale is another.

Alternate picking otoh is always the same. So you are rigorously apply a one size fits all solution to everything. Benefit is evenness and grid time (not the be all and end for rhythm all but you can develop a nice pocket.) otoh it creates significant problems that require solving. For instance the body does not naturally like to alternate and will go into spasm - another reason Gypsy pickers might be taught to engage different muscle groups on the down and up strokes

[Christian Miller]

Long and the short of it:

Things that I wonder about: Is Reg's (from the forum) fundimental technique (the actual motion) that different from Cecil's or let's say Sebastien Giniaux's?

He’s a stone rest stroke picker. Look for the swiping movement on ascending lines, more alternation in descent.

[bediles]

He’s a stone rest stroke picker. Look for the swiping movement on ascending lines, more alternation in descent.

Ahh I see. For acoustic loudness. But maybe they are the same with their downward pick slant forearm rotation motions. Harder to see face on with Cecil bc he plants his pinkie and ring finger but from the instagram vid looks like he's at least trying to feel that motion. Camera angles down the strings elucidate these moments.

[Christian Miller]

Ahh I see. For acoustic loudness.

I don’t know if that’s a consideration for Reg. That’s a common feature of most rest stroke pickers

But maybe they are the same with their downward pick slant forearm rotation motions. Harder to see face on with Cecil bc he plants his pinkie and ring finger but from the instagram vid looks like he's at least trying to feel that motion. Camera angles down the strings elucidate these moments.

yeah I don’t know.

[bediles]

I don’t know if that’s a consideration for Reg. That’s a common feature of most rest stroke pickers

Neat to have this confirmed. I was referencing Sebastian with the acoustic loudness comment (sorry for not being clear) but yeah Reg's picking technique looks to me as a a small version of his strumming. Super fluid, looks like forearm rotation based.

I'm obsessed with picking mechanics ATM

[setemupjoe]

I checked out some of Cecil's videos including this one below to see where he may or not sweep on ascending arpeggios.
My conclusion is he does it sometimes and not other times. He seems to be inconsistent. If you check out his discussion about playing arpeggios up and scales down in the accompanying video, he sweeps across 2 strings on some of his arpeggios but not others.

Soooo, take from that what you will.

[Christian Miller]

I checked out some of Cecil's videos including this one below to see where he may or not sweep on ascending arpeggios.
My conclusion is he does it sometimes and not other times. He seems to be inconsistent. If you check out his discussion about playing arpeggios up and scales down in the accompanying video, he sweeps across 2 strings on some of his arpeggios but not others.

Soooo, take from that what you will.

thanks for doing my homework for me!

[setemupjoe]

And not to sidetrack the conversation but another great player using the same right hand technique is Perry Hughes.

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[bediles]

Perry Hughes is quite the player, wow!

For whether Cecil sweeps ascending arps, probably tempo based. Different techniques btw fast and medium tunes but all still in the dwps, ascending economy picking ball park.

[setemupjoe]

Back in 1982 I got to take a lesson with Jim Hall. I was way too green to take a lot of it in but years later after I developed my own technique and had developed the right hand techniques from Rodney Jones that we're talking about in this thread, I noticed Jim Hall uses the same reverse picking technique. The first time I noticed this it blew my mind. He's the last person I would have thought of to use this.

Check his hand out in this video which was shared on another thread recently.

[charlieparker]

Does Benson picking support strict alternate picking?

[setemupjoe]

Does Benson picking support strict alternate picking?

Yes, the thing with the hand angle is that it promotes a downward rest stroke. You can use alternate picking just as easily as sweeping.


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[Christian Miller]

Does Benson picking support strict alternate picking?

i would say it does so better than trad grip rest stroke stance.

[bediles]

Does Benson picking support strict alternate picking?

Just to be perfectly clear, it really depends what you consider Benson picking. Is it just the underhand grip or the rest stroke technique? Furthermore, how are you making these rest strokes? some combo of forearm rotation and wrist deviation/extension? just the wrist? from the elbow with help from the rotator cuff? (like PF, the guy that teaches benson method).

If it's just the underhand grip then you can alternate pick and escape the strings any way depending on your arm supination or pronation.

But if we're talking the grip, plus the supination of the arm and the pick stroke that creates rest strokes (whatever that may be) then you're probably going to be alternate picking, economy ascending, finding ways to arranging fingerings to be even numbers of notes on a string like the manouche style at least for speedy stuff.

It's outlined here pretty nicely, half way down the page:
DWPS Economy – Cracking the Code

[charlieparker]

Just to be perfectly clear, it really depends what you consider Benson picking. Is it just the underhand grip or the rest stroke technique? Furthermore, how are you making these rest strokes? some combo of forearm rotation and wrist deviation/extension? just the wrist? from the elbow with help from the rotator cuff? (like PF, the guy that teaches benson method).

If it's just the underhand grip then you can alternate pick and escape the strings any way depending on your arm supination or pronation.

But if we're talking the grip, plus the supination of the arm and the pick stroke that creates rest strokes (whatever that may be) then you're probably going to be alternate picking, economy ascending, finding ways to arranging fingerings to be even numbers of notes on a string like the manouche style at least for speedy stuff.

It's outlined here pretty nicely, half way down the page:
DWPS Economy – Cracking the Code

Why is it called an underhand grip? I don't quite get that part? I thought the most important part is the angle of the pick when it strikes the string.

[bediles]

Why is it called an underhand grip? I don't quite get that part? I thought the most important part is the angle of the pick when it strikes the string.

I just called it underhand grip instead of Benson grip and meant the grip that resembles Benson, Cecil Alexander, Dan Wilson etc. They are all a little bit different and it looks like even though they hold the pick similarly, they make slightly different motions to hit the strings. When you say angle, do you mean the angle of the actual pick or the angle of the motion (vector?)?

The arm/hand doesn't need to be supinated (underhand) to have that Benson pick orientation but at least in electric jazz, they seem to come together as a package amongst the famous guys/gals.

[CliffR]

I tried Benson (or more likely, some underhand variant) for a while when I was more focussed on playing rock. I found it had two drawbacks for me: considerably more difficult to perform right-hand muting (although players such as Santana and Neal Schon seem to manage okay), and lack of pinched harmonics (not so important now I've embarked on my jazz odyssey).

But you don't need the underhand grip to have the pick at an angle and glide across the strings. Angling the pick (rotating around the direction normal to the plane of the strings) is quite common amongst shredders, as I learnt from a Jackson guitar forum :P. And that's what I typically use. I also rest my thumb on the lower string(s) for muting.

But since getting into jazz, all thoughts of optimising my picking have gone, since I lose my way in the form at tempos much slower than when technique becomes a barrier.

Pebber Brown was a big advocate of picking using the key-turning wrist mechanic. Google Pebber Brown Sarod for many examples. But it also has the problem of no right hand muting since the hand floats above the strings. I think it's similar to what Eddie Van Halen uses for his tremolo picking passages.

[charlieparker]

But you don't need the underhand grip to have the pick at an angle and glide across the strings. Angling the pick (rotating around the direction normal to the plane of the strings) is quite common amongst shredders, as I learnt from a Jackson guitar forum :P. And that's what I typically use. I also rest my thumb on the lower string(s) for muting.

Agree. Really the key thing is not to hit the string straight on with the flat of the pick. You can either angle the pick towards the headstock so the trailing edge strikes first or towards the bridge which Grady seems to do. The mechanics of the hand movements end up being different bu I think either can work.

[bediles]

found this masterclass. haven't watched it but thought about the JGF when I stumbled upon it.

[Will T.]

I just checked out the Cecil picking masterclass on his site and can't help but ask a potentially ignorant question - do three note per string scales (with downstrokes on downbeats) simply not work with the rest stroke technique?

[Christian Miller]

I just checked out the Cecil picking masterclass on his site and can't help but ask a potentially ignorant question - do three note per string scales (with downstrokes on downbeats) simply not work with the rest stroke technique?

They would be awkward descending without some slurs. The pick gets trapped below the string on a downstroke, so you want to ensure you leave each string when descending with an upstroke. If you are starting each new string with a downstroke (which is typical for rest stroke and benson style picking) you need to play an even number of pickstrokes on the string.

[bediles]

I just checked out the Cecil picking masterclass on his site and can't help but ask a potentially ignorant question - do three note per string scales (with downstrokes on downbeats) simply not work with the rest stroke technique?

Hammer ons, pull offs, slides from the first note to the second or from the second note to the third on a three note per string section. You can also use these left hand devices to reverse the picking (upstrkes on downbeats) or to start a new string on an upstroke.

[James W]

I bought Alexander's picking course the other week. He's basically a downward picking-slanting economy player as his primary or base technique, with various exceptions such as cross-picking (which is why some might think he was a purely alternate picker) and occasional upward sweeps, all to mix it up to play his bebop ideas.

I am contemplating adopting his picking mechanic as my primary one. Trouble is - or perhaps it's no trouble... - my existing technique of alternate picking where possible with the downstrokes aligned with the downbeats etc. works pretty well to an extent. I can play Donna Lee at 220 BPM... But things still feel a bit string hoppy. I experimented earlier trying to apply some Gypsy picking ideas to the head of Donna Lee and although it obviously takes a while to get used to something new, I still felt a bit unsure. I mean, I find pure alternate picking 3-notes-per-string scales quicker/easier than economy picking that, for some reason. OTOH I need to get away from string hopping, and so I need to pursue the very basic remedy to that - the rest stroke ... I think I'm just going to have to cultivate more than one picking mechanic, which actually, is exactly what I have been doing... So anyway who knows? I sure as hell don't... ...