Back problems...

[TPMCD]

Not sure where to put this...it's not really guitar technique, but it does have to do with practicing, etc.

So I'm playing in a big band at the local college, first time I've ever done this, pretty much out of my element, but, well, they're letting me play and it's awesome.

Here's what's going on: I'm 55, haven't played this much guitar in a looooooooong time, and I'm noticing that my back hurts from sitting and playing...as in, very quickly after sitting down and playing a few tunes! Yep, I have a desk job, that's probably not helping. The way I'm sitting now is similar to a lot of jazzers, the Joe Pass way where the guitar is hanging comfortably and you're kind of sitting up, not hunched over, and you can play the chords easy enough, etc. The funny thing is, this posture feels fine, doesn't seem like I'm wrenching my back, etc....but after a few tunes, man it aches.

Not really asking for any "solution", I know that I need to just experiment, change positions, maybe play the guitar on my knee, etc., but just wondering if anyone has gone through something like this and what they did. Thanks all.

Tom

[SOLR]

here's a thread from some years ago that deals with the very subject

Back Pain From Playing Archtop Guitars

If you look at recent Paquale Grasso Pasquale Grasso

clips he uses a suction cup guitarlift style on the bottom of his guitars, also

Romain Pilon

. uses a padded shaped leather cushion to raise his guitar ....No one solution for everyone I'm afraid.....

S

Not sure where to put this...it's not really guitar technique, but it does have to do with practicing, etc.

So I'm playing in a big band at the local college, first time I've ever done this, pretty much out of my element, but, well, they're letting me play and it's awesome.

Here's what's going on: I'm 55, haven't played this much guitar in a looooooooong time, and I'm noticing that my back hurts from sitting and playing...as in, very quickly after sitting down and playing a few tunes! Yep, I have a desk job, that's probably not helping. The way I'm sitting now is similar to a lot of jazzers, the Joe Pass way where the guitar is hanging comfortably and you're kind of sitting up, not hunched over, and you can play the chords easy enough, etc. The funny thing is, this posture feels fine, doesn't seem like I'm wrenching my back, etc....but after a few tunes, man it aches.

Not really asking for any "solution", I know that I need to just experiment, change positions, maybe play the guitar on my knee, etc., but just wondering if anyone has gone through something like this and what they did. Thanks all.

Tom

[marcwhy]

Hey Tom,
Congrats on getting out of your element and playing with the band! You'll learn tons, and hopefully have some good fun! What type of guitar are you playing, BTW (i.e., 17" hollowbody, tele, or what)?

So here's Joe playing seated -- is this what you're talking about?

I've never played in that position, but it looks uncomfortable to me. Same with Jocelyn Gould -- this looks odd to me, but obviously Joe and Jocelyn can play!

You're not asking for a solution, however ... If you have a guitar-player friend, have that person watch you, and/or video yourself playing to see what may contribute to the pain. You "shouldn't" feel pain after a couple tunes, so something's off (likely with your posture).

Maybe spend a few bucks and check one of these out: Neck-up.

[Or spend a lot of money and get a klein-style, ergonomic guitar -- no more back pain!!]

Let us know what you figure out!

Marc

[AllanAllen]

It could also be the chair. How’s your 90/90 hips and leg posture? 90°bend at the hips, 90° bend at the knees. If the chair is too low or too high you’ll get pain. Or upset underlying pain you don’t notice from the desk job.

[whiskey02]

Can we assume that you are in fact using a strap? I can see how not using one could lead to problems; hunching over to meet the guitar. AllanAllen makes a good point. Are you sure you're keeping your shoulders directly above your hips and knees directly over ankles; don't bend knees greater than 90 degrees. Don't tuck your feet under your chair/under your butt as that can affect your balance.... which can lead one to use different muscle group to maintain balance. You could also try playing in the classical position.

[TPMCD]

SOLR - Thanks for sharing that link, I'll definitely check that out.

Tom

[TPMCD]

Can we assume that you are in fact using a strap? I can see how not using one could lead to problems; hunching over to meet the guitar. AllanAllen makes a good point. Are you sure you're keeping your shoulders directly above your hips and knees directly over ankles; don't bend knees greater than 90 degrees. Don't tuck your feet under your chair/under your butt as that can affect your balance.... which can lead one to use different muscle group to maintain balance. You could also try playing in the classical position.

Yes, using a strap, but I'll have to check next time I play to see if I'm doing all the other stuff (hips, knees, ankles, 90 degrees, etc.)...I'll try to be strict with it, see if it helps. Thanks for this insight.

Tom

[TPMCD]

So, check out the above picture. Two different postures (confirmed by many other pictures, not just that one); I'm wondering if I'm more of a Kessel type as opposed to Pass. I've played guitar for over 30 years, mostly rock, but I always played the "normal" folksy way - guitar on the knee, playing kind of hunched over. But in this past month, since getting "serious" about jazz, I've been trying the Pass style. Perhaps the issue isn't necessarily the "right" posture, but me doing something I don't normally do.

Anyway, everyone's comments have been great, very informative, absolutely appreciate the input. Think I'll go Kessel style next time I play, see what happens. Thanks all.

Tom

[Christian Miller]

Got a dynarette guitar cushion. Sorted my back out.

[Jonah]

Is guitar heavy? If it is and I think some archtops can be heavy you could use a lap support or cushion classical guitarists use.

Also maybe if you used another posture for years with folk guitar it may be a bit traumatic to change it even if it is theoretically healthier.

Also check your left hand elbow if it is totally relaxed and down or you raise it up.
Right hand should be also posed comfortably

Another thing that I find comfortable for myself is sitting on a chair with the chair back. It is not often mentioned - I do not why, maybe because it considered that one should rely more on his/her own back without any props or supports.

Check this video, not a guitar but the conception is very similar and very well explained.

[shrews824]

I have some back trouble myself. I can't stand and play guitar for more than five minutes before it's killing me.

I have to play sitting down similar to what Joe Pass and Jocelyn are doing. I sit almost straight up like that and ratchet my strap real tight (almost like a bib) and make sure that it is "pinched" between my back and the chair. That way the strap is bearing all of the weight of the guitar. It works for me, but as others have said, it may not be suitable for you or your technique.

Good luck because I truly feel your pain in having back troubles.

[GuyBoden]

I had back problems when playing, I went to a physio for exercises and advice, I now play in an upright position, which seems to help my back problems, but we are all different.

This is my current sitting position.

[grahambop]

My understanding of this issue is that the ideal position is back upright and straight, well supported in the back, and both legs level at the same height. Anything that twists the spine even a little can cause trouble.

So the classical guitar posture with one leg on a footstool is problematic because it twists the spine. As I got older I started to get backache with it, so I switched to one of those dynarette cushions and that has solved it. (I still use a very low footstool as well, just to raise the leg a little, but that seems to be ok).

As for jazz archtop guitar, I used to play with it on the right leg and hunched over it a bit. Again, as I got older, this started to hurt, so I switched to using a strap and keeping my back upright, like the Joe Pass playing position. This is now fine.

Also I always use a chair which can support the middle of my back well (such as an office chair). And I try to keep tension anywhere to a minimum.

[Christian Miller]

I think keeping the back reasonably straight is a good rule to follow. I use the dynarette mostly with ‘folk position’ and this also helps. Just raises up the guitar enough so I don’t hunch.

[RJVB]

Not "having played this much guitar in a LOOONG" time is probably the main culprit here, but using a strap while setting is a sure way of putting needless load on your shoulders and/or back in my experience.

What kind of guitar are we talking about, and where in your back does it hurt? High up like between your shoulderblades would be a symptom of hunching or playing with a strap, lower more of having a twisted position ... or a general lack of tonus (often in the abdominal muscles, forcing the back muscles to do most of the work, btw).

Classical position can help, but it can also force you to turn your upper body too far the other way if the guitar is big and has a 14th-fret neck join. Michael Chapdelaine's playing position is probably better for such situations, and it will certainly prevent you from hunching. He's got a video about the position he uses.
Also, a thinline or e-guitar might be uncomfortable on your leg and not very stable without strap, but a Guitarlift-like support or cushion could remedy that.

BTW, many lute players use a strap but in a very different way: attached just to the endpin (or whatever it's called on a lute) they sit on the free end. It basically acts as an anchor that keeps the instrument from toppling (i.e. neck up) provided you have something non-slip on the right leg. I can easily see something like that combined with Chapdedelaine's method.

[Jonah]

Or this?))

[Jonah]

BTW, many lute players use a strap but in a very different way: attached just to the endpin (or whatever it's called on a lute) they sit on the free end. It basically acts as an anchor that keeps the instrument from toppling (i.e. neck up) provided you have something non-slip on the right leg.

Attaching just to endpin is what Massimo Lonardi does (or did), no back strap. But he plays 'ankel on leg' that gives him support.
It works with small renaissance lute imho.


Many lutists use 'strap through the loop', it is tied by the headstock, goes behind the back and then through the cord loop attached to the endpin and then you sit on it.
So it pulls the head up and fix the lute.

But I prefer two separate straps: one regular (head to endpin), another one is short fixed to the end pin and I sit on it. First of all this pulls the bottom of the lute down, and the back strap is almost loose, no tension there.
Second, it will not fall if you suddenly stand up without holding your lute.

Anyway lutes are extremely light and I am afraid it will not work with heavy archtops.

Besides lutists mostly do it because lutes are unbalanced, have round slippery body and again too light and move with every touch.

Jazz guitars are usually well-balanced on straps

[TPMCD]

Not "having played this much guitar in a LOOONG" time is probably the main culprit here, but using a strap while setting is a sure way of putting needless load on your shoulders and/or back in my experience.

What kind of guitar are we talking about, and where in your back does it hurt? High up like between your shoulderblades would be a symptom of hunching or playing with a strap, lower more of having a twisted position ... or a general lack of tonus (often in the abdominal muscles, forcing the back muscles to do most of the work, btw).

Classical position can help, but it can also force you to turn your upper body too far the other way if the guitar is big and has a 14th-fret neck join. Michael Chapdelaine's playing position is probably better for such situations, and it will certainly prevent you from hunching. He's got a video about the position he uses.
Also, a thinline or e-guitar might be uncomfortable on your leg and not very stable without strap, but a Guitarlift-like support or cushion could remedy that.

BTW, many lute players use a strap but in a very different way: attached just to the endpin (or whatever it's called on a lute) they sit on the free end. It basically acts as an anchor that keeps the instrument from toppling (i.e. neck up) provided you have something non-slip on the right leg. I can easily see something like that combined with Chapdedelaine's method.

Thanks for commenting! The guitar is a 16.5" wide, 3.5" deep archtop. The pain is basically the middle back, I guess. As far as the strap goes, if I'm playing with the guitar on my knee, then no strap; if I'm playing the Joe Pass style (as I mentioned before) then I do use the strap. The strap may be an issue, still experimenting. Thanks again.

[RJVB]

That sounds like a guitar that is maybe a tad wider than my Loar. You could experiment with a DeOro Flamenco support (as for a wide leather strap for extra confort and non-slip properties); I have one for that Loar and it fits flawlessly (I keep it on all the time as it folds flush to the waist so the instrument fits in its case). It also gives you multiple position options to experiment with.

I have no experience with middle-back soreness ... you don't happen to have a scoliosis or similar "deviation" by any chance?

[marcwhy]

On topic (and no affiliation with the Sellers): here is a killer Forshage "Orion" guitar for a great price! [There's also a semi-hollow model, but $1000 more.] Either would be helpful for serious back problems!