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Yeah, I don't think that's something one sees every day. You probably know that DC means to the top (go to the 1st measure) and then he adds the word "repeat". You play the whole form, A A B A to coda and then start over and repeat the whole thing again and again.
Originally Posted by charlieparker
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02-28-2023 01:36 AM
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Originally Posted by Topper Roth
Here are some recordings of the form. Yes they're fast, but the reason why they could be played so fast was because the harmony was so essential.
Once you get inside of how to hear and play chords, you'll see how they go together and how this can be done by ear.
It's really good that you play by ear, that's the fastest connection with your fingers. The issue will be to teach your ear the intricacies of the seven chords of the scale, the diatonic landscape.
After that come the internalizations of the dominant phrase approaches.
Pretty much when you teach your ear these things, you have the backbone of tonal improvisation.
It's true that to see any tune as a modular compendium of these elements may seem like a huge or impossible undertaking, but that's what keeps people from attempting it.
Look at the piece and familiarize your ear with the essential diatonic movements I have outlined in the first colour chart. That's a good place to begin.
The shifting dominant bars you point out... don't sweat it, treat it all as one dominant set of two bars. You can learn to create movement with them later. It's a nice study in increasing interest, like acquiring really great descriptive adjectives, but it's not what the flow is really about. Simplify those bars.
As far as the bridge, those are tiny little exercises in leading a line to a target tonality. Look at them that way. Work on the essential skill of leading a line to a resting place. Do this on your own, it's a HUGE part of improvising melodically on the guitar. Get comfortable and then apply that to the series of II V I's that this project offers you.
Here's one player's perspective
Chew on this. I'll return to this topic as you give me some feedback.
Good luck!
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I spent last night working through the first 8 bars at 60 bpm.
I was focusing on playing continuous eight notes even if it meant playing wrong notes.
Today, I think I'm going to try something more formulaic of just playing descending scales starting at the root of each chord and arpeggios of each chord to get a better idea of possible notes to play.
After that I'm considering composing a line to play to serve as something I can vary.
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This is a great plan. Scale down arpeggio up then arpeggio down scale up. Then get fancy playing the scale in 3rds to sound like Vince Guaraldi Originally Posted by charlieparker
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Finished Day 2. I think my improv was a little less rigid and more fluid than on Day 1. I was beginning to "hear" the song, i.e., the shifts in tonality, and (sometimes) find single notes and multi-note phrases that meshed/matched/fit with those shifts. For me, diminished 7th arpeggios are a good way to transition between "tone/key centers," though they start to sound like "just clichés," if I depend on them too much. I also used more intervalic "leaping" today and less sequential notes of a given scale/mode. The time goes pretty quickly ...
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YES! That's the whole cycle. Originally Posted by Topper Roth
Being overwhelmed (to some degree)
Getting some handhold
Getting comfortable
Feeling good
Getting too comfortable
Getting bored
Out of that grows the really interesting stuff- solidity, variation and exploration. You discover something you never were aware of (dominant functions of which diminished ideas are one part of) and it's exciting and overwhelming.
Begin again.
This is a spiral and the more solid and detailed that spiral is, the more fun it is. It comes across as sounding good.
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Thursday Day 4. It's so good to be focusing on moving my fingers in eighth notes. It's proving to be the best way to move from "thinking" to "moving". It's so easy to get away with not improving the speed of thought when thinking of all the "things" one needs to play. Having an hour where nobody's going to hold me accountable for bad notes, but rather making peace with the ticker is a great and sobering exercise.
I worry less, hear more, and see form in a completely different way. I can anticipate sounds faster than I could ever see them on a page.
It's meditative and I'm seeing the piece in terms of "solid areas", "challenging areas" and "trouble areas", but I'm not sweating it. No time for that. I make notes and next time around they're waiting for me. Eventually some solution comes.
I look forward to this hour a day.
Thought of the day: I wish the local library had a case of guitar gear patrons could check out. First item on the list: Looper. Everyone should be provided with one. What a life changer!
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David, that sounds great and something to strive for... getting to a meditative state with these lessons.
I'm going to share what helped me understand the A section of the chord progression.
I think the problem for me is the chords are going by so slowly and with the substitutions it just took too long to get to the next chord. I've been starting my sessions singing the melody at a comfortable tempo which helps me hear the chord changes. And the C7 now totally makes sense, it's just a V/V. Just using a more bare-bones progression to get to its essence.
I - I7 - IV - bVII - I - V/V - ii - V
Not worrying about singing well, that's not the point...
Last edited by fep; 03-02-2023 at 10:11 PM.
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Week 1 - Day 4. Quite disappointed with myself after the first round of improvisation today. I tried to just focus on the "key centers" and not the "chords." But I ended up just playing boring and, to me, bad-sounding scales. It was hard for me to be imaginative without the benefit of PHRASING, i.e., by being compelled to play all eighth notes. But, by the third round of improvisation, my mind and ear and fingers loosened up a bit, even within the constraints of the eight-note rule, and I began to find some more interesting and musical lines. So that was mildly encouraging :-)
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At this point, there are two very distinct camps: Too easy and too hard. Congratulations on being an improvisor!
I have found that in the early (slower tempo) phase, it's been really helpful to take an inventory of things I've wanted to work on and never got mastered at regular speed. Here's a short list of my personal goals:
Finding those areas of the fingerboard where I'm weak. This is where I use that fingerboard map on the post of tools. By associating diatonic areas as roman numerals, I can expand my awareness of where all my options are and spend my time on creating lines and phrases that get me there. Practicing lines that get me to a sound and location gets me out of the same way of playing over a tonality.
Sequential figures. These are nice connective tissue ideas that are handy for creating interesting movement. Instead of a scale line, I'll work on 1 3 4 2 3 5 6 4 5 7...
Underutilized intervals. Why don't I use 4ths more in my linear work? Or 6ths? And SO many really cool angular lines come from 7ths and 9ths! I avoid them because I don't work on them at slower speeds.
Consciously changing directions. Yeah I make tired lines, but what happens when I make a decision to pivot, change direction mid phrase? There are times I'll hear a player who's worked on this and I'm always surprised. Interesting playing is the sound of surprise. Smart playing depends on the ability to control that.
Starting a line on a NON chord tone and playing with resolution. This is a big one that unlocks cool strategies for creating a sense of movement.
Being aware of the speed of movement. Sense of speed doesn't always come from tempo, it comes from content too. A line comprised of a series of wide intervals creates a feeling of speed that's different from a repeated line. This is a great point to explore the consequences of intervals and how they are perceived.
Voice leading chords versus a cold start isolated phrase or jump. This is a good one for me to work on.
Motific ideas. Create specific melodic ideas (yes I CAN make short phrases and ideas within a steady stream of eighth notes...but HOW?). Then once I have an idea or a motif-a short characteristic melodic fragment-how do I develop it?
Awareness of contour. This is a vocabulary as much as anything.
So a few ideas that keep ME busy. The longer I've been playing, the greater the bag of compositional tools I have at my disposal. These 20 weeks are ones I use for really tuning up my playing.
Kinda see my personal evolution this way:
1) Finger proficiency. Don't worry about being profound or even melodic. Just get used to being able to stay on an eighth note pace and not trip yourself up into a train wreck is a MAJOR hurdle. Just move until your fingers can be confident.
2) Begin to hear areas you're strong, areas where you get tripped up. Don't sweat it but this exploratory process is the way you awaken your ear to the landscape of a piece. I made reference to this when I broke the piece into diatonic and dominant areas. The way you eventually hear a piece will be YOUR take, but it's much more than just a string of changes. Hear soft spots and hard spots and bring your aural awareness into directing your fingers.
3) Create distinct strategies in your line craft. The beginning pages of Super Chops has some GREAT advice for making lines. Look at that part of the book and keep adding your own pages to that. It's a lifelong process.
4) Make and break finger habits. Patterns and scales will give your hands ease and confidence. They'll also trap you. Embrace and avoid the power of your fingers. Strive to always maintain the driver's seat.
5) After I can establish the aural awareness of where I am in a piece, what chords and functions I'm working on, fine tune that awareness. This is a huge and crucial step and it is the doorway to creating options and exploring the infinity of compositional devices you'll weave into your own style.
6) A HUGE imperative to strive for ASAP is GETTING OFF BOOK. This is the transition from any external guide to an internal guidance system. It's what makes YOU the true pilot. EAR awareness is essential. It's faster than reading. It allows you control of where you're going, being able to 'see' for bars ahead of where you are. It gives your imagination sound to work with and not notes. It is the way to see and call upon options as a part of the moment. AND playing by ear will INSTANTLY improve your sound and feeling of self assurance. Get it in your ear.
Yeah that's kind of a general way to balance ear, hands, awareness and navigation, those essential skills. At every level of playing these are some of the things that will give you interest, a challenge and satisfaction. They all take work and they are SO much fun to master.
Maybe this personal perspective on things can provide some light for your own journey.
Have fun.
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Put in 30 minutes last night. Still just running scales with some Barry Harris inspired passing tones. Still only working with the first 8 measures. Might post something but it sounds pretty bad running scales at that tempo.
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You can work with the sound, quality, smoothness, consistency or feeling of conviction you convey running the scales (a scale can be beautiful with the right touch), or if you're unhappy with just the scales, don't play them! Now is never too soon to begin developing your line skills. Skip a note, change direction, skip between chord tones and mix it up as far as direction goes. Originally Posted by charlieparker
All these skills, especially how to react to finding yourself playing scales, will be skills you develop your entire life.
Why stick to scales? I mean this as a serious question. You'll soon see that it's all about alternatives and learning to internalize them. You'll never expand your ear until you challenge yourself to find the unexpected.
Play it safe until you're feeling in control, then go for the new! The more you explore, the more you'll hear, and the more you'll find out what's within your abilities.
Everyone, I mean everyone began where you are now, and who they are is just a matter of how long they went before they gave up. If it's fun, you'll never give up. That's everyone you wish you could be.
Go for it! High five!
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Sharing my SuperChops and Reaper setup...
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After Day 5 today, I realize how far I have to go in terms of "knowing" the fingerboard and also in terms of developing a greater variety of approaches to ii-Vs.
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Very nice fep, thanks for posting. Originally Posted by fep
Nice Amplitude tone. I must look into it.
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If you don't have Amplitube Max, the cheapest way for the Fender Deluxe is to wait for a sale. They have a Fender 1 and a Fender 2 package, it's in one of those. They go on sale for $29.99 from time to time. Originally Posted by Liarspoker
Very nice fep, thanks for posting.
Nice Amplitude tone. I must look into it.
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Hello everyone, I'm just a hobbyist player, but I'd like to join this group, I've not played standards for many years, but I did play Cherokee in a guitar duo more than 20 years ago, so I can remember the chords and melody, vaguely.
I've recently changed my 7 string guitars to have a low B string, so I need to practice. Hopefully, this group will help enormously and improve my 8th notes, which are very slow. (My 7 strings did have a high treble string.
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Progress so far, I can play the changes and melody by memory, but my 8th note playing is very slow. It's such a difficult song at fast tempo. Hopefully, I'll practice this material at least an hour a day.
Many thanks for organising this group.
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More of the same. Thought I would post my "progress".
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I've been gravitating towards playing the chord progression in the V position plus or minus a couple frets.
I decided today to force myself away from that, so I did 10 minutes in I position, 10 minutes in III position, 10 minutes in VII position, 10 minutes in X position. Then 10 minutes up and down the fretboard just using the B and E strings and 10 minutes up and down just using the G and B strings. I need a lot more practice at this. I think it's very useful.
The other two sets of strings D G, A D, E A are next. Then three string sets like G B E etc.
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Week 1, Day 6 - The lesson I learned today is that I need to practice my arpeggios in the context of TUNES. I DO practice them, but I tend to do so mechanically, focusing on the spatial aspects, and without thinking enough about the QUALITY of a given arpeggio (i.e., Major 7, minor 7, dominant 7, etc) and the chord(s) it is related to. Yes, you can call me a slow learner ...
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Yeah! Keepin' it moving. Find your ear and keep at it until your fingers follow the flow. Inspiring! Originally Posted by charlieparker
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Sometimes we allow ourselves the luxury of not getting to what can really help us. SUCH a hard lesson! Originally Posted by Topper Roth
This program is a rude kick in the butt when it comes to embracing the way a TUNE puts it all into perspective.
I found the first quarter of this program is the most intimidating. It was the part that made me want to give up. It seemed like jumping onto a moving carousel. But the daily program made me use what I didn't even know I had in my own abilities.
It's an amazing feeling to learn how to run, judge speed and distance and make the jump onto the painted giraffe.
Your ear is sharper than you think; sharp enough to work with your hands. You're getting it.
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I’ve been cheating using iReal instead of recording. Playing the track with only bass and drums, strumming the chords the first 10 minutes then improvising following the key centers on the page after that.
I think a solid backing track is more helpful than a recording of me flubbing a chord because I got lost on the sheet. And I’m still playing the chords for the first 10 minutes.
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This week we move the harmony of Project up a 3rd. That means on the guitar, everything moves to the next string a couple of frets down or up 3 frets up. That's going to give us a whole new perspective and a great workout on the areas of the fingerboard we may have avoided this past week.
It's the same map as I posted early on, same roman numeral orientation but different location on the neck.
You'll notice that in each weekly chapter in the book, there's an example that Howard Roberts wrote out. These are a veritable treasury of different options and ideas. It's worth the effort to look to them if you ever wonder "What can I do NOW?".
Now for Cher 0 key in Db:
Here's a simplified and somewhat de-cluttered version of that project:
You'll notice the chord symbols use a slightly different convention and I've simplified some chords to their basic [letter]7 form because I generally leave extension choices up to the needs of the moment. This is not unusual.
If a chord change says, say B9, it's accepted to be a dominant family chord with an extension, or a B7(9). Just to be clear.
Again I've got a diatonic chord page, to help 'hear' the piece as a progression of familiar tonal areas connected by dominant areas. This helps me to think of the piece in terms of areas I can anticipate.
Simply played, you can start with reducing two bar areas to one chord (I've circled them) if it helps to hear the character of the tune better. Hearing is an evolutionary process.
For the more advanced players, you can impose different or smaller harmonic structures, or if you hear it, modal substitutions. I'll often borrow substitutions from melodic minor (mixolydian b2 or lydian augmented) because I see a piece as a spectrum of movement towards chromaticism, but I won't use these until maybe the second or third chorus and bring the listener's ear along. This is one way the slower speeds are good for me, personally.
Diatonic areas
Dominant areas
Where ever you are and no matter how unhappy you are with your results, you will learn something with each step that you take.
The tempo markings in the book are ONLY A SUGGESTION. Play a few minutes before each session to establish your comfort zone and aim to challenge that. That's the only rule.
Have a good time with week 2!
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And here is a pdf you can download or print for Lesson 2 (click the blue word "Box"): Box
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