“I don't care if a dude is purple with green breath as long as he can swing.”

[eh6794-2.0]

For the love of gawd, people, please listen to what Miles has to say about this topic. This is the most important part of jazz music. We spend our days focusing on harmony, but everybody forgets about the fact that they are making music.

If your straightforward iim - V7 - Imaj swings, it sounds a hundred times better than the greatest harmony that doesn't swing.

I bring this up (sorry for being extremely harsh) because there's a hundred different content creators who I WANT TO LEARN AND IMPROVE FROM, but they don't get this topic at all. They have great harmony ideas, but they don't get it.

Jazzguitar.be's main forum room should be on this topic, but it's absent from their site. We should all be on the "swing room" all day.

“What’s swinging in words? If a guy makes you pat your foot and if you feel it down your back, you don’t have to ask anybody if that’s good music or not. You can always feel it.

Now let the hate replies begin

[tbeltrans]

The subject title brings to mind a popular tune all over the radio when I was growing up - "The Purple People Eater".

Tony

[princeplanet]

What's harder, adding swing to your playing when you already have all the chops, vocab and knowledge of theory/harmony under control? Or adding chops, vocab and theory/harmony to your great sense of swing?

Hehe, stupid question, right, because you can't swing unless you have enough of everything else you need to go with it. But we get your point - spend some time developing your swing feel whilst you work on other stuff... or later on, as many folks seem to put it off til after they have some other elements going. Whatever, but don't be that over educated dweeb that can't make people feel what they're playing. Or maybe be that, if that's your thing...

[pauln]

This is the most important part of jazz music. We spend our days focusing on harmony, but everybody forgets about the fact that they are making music.

I wonder to what degree this is a "modern" problem.

The way I learned songs is by listening to them (and I think that was the traditional way). The funny thing about rhythm is that it is a different dimension than melody or harmony; learning those latter two for a tune are what takes a bit of work to grasp but rhythm is grasped directly, is the first to be grasped, the easiest to recall, and the dimension that is the last to be forgot. Somehow, it is quite different from the other two and is essentially self revealing in the sense that the other two need focus and experience to become revealed. But it is only self revealing when you actually hear it.

When you learn by listening to a tune, the various parts throughout the tune begin to fill in... to the degree that we "play too much" you can almost be ready to play a new tune when you have only figured out about half of it (if what is figured out is distributed throughout the tune).

However, the modern way one uses a lead sheet or a progression schema or a TAB which does not "present" the rhythm as something heard but to be derived tends to suggest learning the tune from the beginning step by step, separating the process from the overall context by using a serial process rather than a "spatial" process. By the time the melody and harmony are fully acquired you still may not have heard it yet with respect to rhythm.

This is really tragic because the rhythm is a given, the foundation of jazz, so easy and direct to grasp when heard, but so easy to not grasp when learning a tune from silent paper (or screen these days).

[jameslovestal]

For the love of gawd, people, please listen to what Miles has to say about this topic. This is the most important part of jazz music. We spend our days focusing on harmony, but everybody forgets about the fact that they are making music.

If your straightforward iim - V7 - Imaj swings, it sounds a hundred times better than the greatest harmony that doesn't swing.

I bring this up (sorry for being extremely harsh) because there's a hundred different content creators who I WANT TO LEARN AND IMPROVE FROM, but they don't get this topic at all. They have great harmony ideas, but they don't get it.

Jazzguitar.be's main forum room should be on this topic, but it's absent from their site. We should all be on the "swing room" all day.

“What’s swinging in words? If a guy makes you pat your foot and if you feel it down your back, you don’t have to ask anybody if that’s good music or not. You can always feel it.

Now let the hate replies begin

Since you "get it", why do you need them to "get it" in order to learn from them? I.e. just take in their "great harmonic ideas", and apply that swing feel to it.

[docsteve]

What's harder, adding swing to your playing when you already have all the chops, vocab and knowledge of theory/harmony under control? Or adding chops, vocab and theory/harmony to your great sense of swing?

Hehe, stupid question, right, because you can't swing unless you have enough of everything else you need to go with it. But we get your point - spend some time developing your swing feel whilst you work on other stuff... or later on, as many folks seem to put it off til after they have some other elements going. Whatever, but don't be that over educated dweeb that can't make people feel what they're playing. Or maybe be that, if that's your thing...

I beg to differ. Swing is more important than a great vocabulary. The old musicians had swing and they hardly played anything outside the major scale.


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[nevershouldhavesoldit]

For the love of gawd, people, please listen to what Miles has to say about this topic.

I think I understand what you'e trying to say. MIles didn't invent the concept. It was true and obvious long before Duke Ellington and Irving Mills first said it musically in 1931 - "It Don't Mean a Thing If It Ain't Got That Swing". Many skilled composers and many players with iron chops lack a true feel for jazz. Call it what you wish - do they swing? can they find the pocket? are they in the groove? smokin'? But I don't understand why you're being (as you describe youself) "extremely harsh" or what you think would be discussed in a "swing forum" after the first 5 posts saying that you can't teach someone to swing. And I agree in general that you can't teach someone to swing. with the exception of those who have the ability but have never heard it and will pick it up as soon as they do.

There are far more such players out there than you might imagine, and I've met a lot of them because I've run jams for many years. Some very basic players take it seriously and jump the shark as soon as they hear and feel firsthand how it's supposed to sound. Not everyone learns and experiences life the same way - some need visual imagery, some need auditory stimulus, some have to be guided with words, and others don't get the concept of swing until they're sitting on the stage with you and feeling the beat, the flow, and the energy.

I also don't understand why you can't learn harmonic concepts from those who "don't swing". Voicing, chord structure, theory, etc exist apart from any sense of swing. And if you do in fact swing yourself, what you learn will also swing and enhance your ability to do so. As stated above, you may need learning tools that are visual, audible, tangible, palpable etc to get the most out of a potential educator. Teaching and learning are partners in education. Both have roles in the effective transfer of information and experience, and each has the potential to help the other improve in those roles. Each of us can become a better and more effective student.

Finally, I think you should read a bit more about Miles before accepting your premise as entirely true. Start with his autobiography (co-written with Quincy Troupe under the title "Miles"). If you want to know more about your specific quote in the thead title, there are many references to Miles' relationship with racism in the index. Read his interview in the September 1962 Playboy by Alex Haley (the author of Roots, for those who don't know who he was). When he was in a blue funk or otherwise down, he cared a lot whether you were purple or green. I've been gigging for 60+ years - I've seen firsthand many of the racist happenings that drove him to periods of great anger against much of society, and I've experienced some myself. He was right about most of them, but he was not exactly a poster child for universal love and equality.

I leave you with one of my two favorite MIles quotes: "Anybody can play. The note is only 20 percent. The attitude of the m*therf*cker who plays it is 80 percent." And it was most often the attitude that drove him to accept or reject musicians. MIke Stern famously said that Miles didn't usually care about mistakes.

Before anyone asks, my other favorite quote from MIles may or may not be accurate. I've never seen a clear attribution to him, but legend has it that he said this to a sideman after a solo he found to be boring and valueles: "If you got nothin' to say, don't say nothin'!"

[eh6794-2.0]

But I don't understand why you're being (as you describe youself) "extremely harsh" or what you think would be discussed in a "swing forum" after the first 5 posts saying that you can't teach someone to swing.

I used a few Miles quotes for a reason: if Miles says it, my post probably won't be attacked.

I want to improve as a musician. I want to learn from other musicians. The point of my post is pretty clear, but I suspect most of us don't have the ability to see that it is written to [almost] all of us.

[eh6794-2.0]

I wonder to what degree this is a "modern" problem.

I suspect it's rooted in our use of tablature. I don't hear this problem with horn or piano players, I only hear it from guitarists.

I'd like to add that "swing" isn't necessarily a shuffle. It's the general emotion and soul one puts into their instrument. It's the phrasing of a lick that could be too complicated to properly notate the rhythm. It's the nuance you feel when it's there but miss it when it's not there. Furthermore, it does mean you keep a solid tempo. Pasquale Grasso tried to teach it in one of his videos.

IMO, it's the most important factor in being a jazz musician, but it seems to be the least "studied".

[Jimmy Smith]

Notes are important too, but yes rhythm and time feel or swing are essential. You can work on them concurrently.

[vintagelove]

The thing is, it's hard to "virtually teach" good rhythm/feel. It's a lot easier to make videos like "check out this secret Charlie Parker lick". So that's what you see.

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

The thing is, it's hard to "virtually teach" good rhythm/feel. It's a lot easier to make videos like "check out this secret Charlie Parker lick". So that's what you see.

I don't think you can teach rhythm and feel. You can demonstrate it and you can contrast it with its opposite - but you can't teach someone to feel it. The best you can do is awaken the inner swinger in those who have the ability but need a jolt of East Bay Grease to get it moving.

Finding the groove is a lot like kissing. Trying to learn to swing from intuition or recorded music is probably like kissing through a screen door - it's kinda fun, but you have no idea how great it can be. But once you experience it with the right mate, you can take it to the limit. For some, all it takes is live exposure to a great band. The jolt I got from my first serious girlfriend was a lot like the jolt I got from the first tight, swinging band I ever played with. Before feeling it from the middle of a great band, I only knew intellectually how it should sound and feel. But when I experienced it for myself, I found so much more.

And now I'm a delighted veteran of 65 years of gigging and 50 years of marriage. Lesson learned!

[princeplanet]

I beg to differ. Swing is more important than a great vocabulary. The old musicians had swing and they hardly played anything outside the major scale.


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Sure, but I bet you they worked harder on their major scale based vocab than they did on their swing feel! The latter can come naturally, the former can't...

[Gabor]

The rythm is the king, we agree, at least in that kinda music we are mainly listening this forum. However

- there is no need to absolutize this kinda music, because there are other kinda music, where not the rythm is in the focus, instead harmony, or structure, or melody. (one may think structure: Beethoven, harmony: Bartók, melody: Puccini, Brahms, Strauss, but the most interesting we do not have to go so far, think Wish You Were Here, or Dark Side... or Karn Evil 9.

- what is more, even in a music where rythm is the king, still, it is not necessary swing, instead a broader rythm feel, groove. So listening Led Zeppelin' Bonham, or Ginger Baker, or giving an other example Benson' Masquerade or a typical soul music, all grooves, so our foot also starts to tap...

[eh6794-2.0]

East Bay Grease

In the 90s, I got lessons from a jump/swing blues guy named Kid Ramos. He was heavily influenced by guys like TBone Walker and Charlie Christian, and he worked with James Harmon for years. He used to say, "your playing has to sound like grease."

He got the swing/soul playing instilled in me.

[eh6794-2.0]

because there are other kinda music, where not the rythm is in the focus, instead harmony, or structure, or melody.

We are specifically talking about jazz. Are there jazz tunes where rhythm/swing/soul are not extremely important?

[Jimmy Smith]

Imo everything is important. Rhythm and time feel are essential, the music won't be effective without that. While the music can still be effective without a bunch of melodic and harmonic devices. However, renditions that I like usually have it goin on in all areas. It's not like I'm going to only practice rhythm and f off with other important aspects of melody and harmony.

[Christian Miller]

I my experience students pick up swing better when they learn music by ear. Some things can’t be written down and therefore you can’t pick them up from the page.

Never try to swing ….

[nevershouldhavesoldit]

In the 90s, I got lessons from a jump/swing blues guy named Kid Ramos. He was heavily influenced by guys like TBone Walker and Charlie Christian, and he worked with James Harmon for years. He used to say, "your playing has to sound like grease."

Kid Ramos is the real deal! But East Bay Grease is a term from Tower of Power. It ain’t jazz, but they swing so hard they move the earth. Wrap this around your ears and if there’s an ounce of swing in you, it’ll bubble to the surface like hot lava in a volcano:

I’ve played about 2000 weddings etc over the last 60 years. Some of that music is so boring that you have to make it swing to stay awake. Even Mozart, Bach and Scarlatti can swing. It’s not genre-dependent and it doesn’t mean that everything has to sound like Benny Goodman. It is what it is.

[eh6794-2.0]

I knew I recognized the term East Bay Grease. AMAZING music.

[StuartF]

. . . When he was in a blue funk or otherwise down, he cared a lot whether you were purple or green. I've been gigging for 60+ years - I've seen firsthand many of the racist happenings that drove him to periods of great anger against much of society, and I've experienced some myself. He was right about most of them, but he was not exactly a poster child for universal love and equality. . . .

That was my first reaction to the quote.

It might depend on when he said it. Frances's husband was a much different man from Cicely's husband.

[Gabor]

There are two kinds of people, those who divide people into two groups and those who don't.

What would be the possible use of dividing people into two groups, those who swing and those who don't? (and trying to hide their lack of ability behind esotheric harmonies). What would be the benefit? What would be the take away of this thought? What practical advice it gives? What further conclusions it leads us to?

It seems to more as an inner urge...but this case it has nothing to do with the music...

[ModesSchmodes]

I'm sorry but knowing this forum's demographic, I have absolutely no interest to be in a 'swing room' with them... not judging, but you're all not quite my type.

[jameslovestal]

In the 90s, I got lessons from a jump/swing blues guy named Kid Ramos. He was heavily influenced by guys like TBone Walker and Charlie Christian, and he worked with James Harmon for years. He used to say, "your playing has to sound like grease."

He got the swing/soul playing instilled in me.

I played with Kid Ramos when both of us joined a Django jam session at The Barn in Orange County California, a few decades ago. Both of us didn't last long at these jams but it was nice hearing him try to play Django tunes. I say try to play since it wasn't his style, but it was still refreshing to hear someone with his skills play his solo instead of the Django "nuts" that try to play like Django, often note-for-note. Ramos was the only one that was interested in my Gibson L-7. The others: well I didn't have the right guitar for a Django Jam. I also wanted to play some jazz standards instead of the same Django tunes over and over again.

Oh, well, it just wasn't my type of jam.

[ChazFromCali]

....should it be called swing guitar rather than jazz guitar? My favorite jazz insult was Miles commenting on Ringo Starr. "He couldn't swing if he was hangin."