The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    Is there a "rule of thumb" or "preferred" limit to the number of frets that any given melody should only use?

    I don't mean when improvising, I mean when actually playing the melody itself.

    For example: Blue Bossa, Key of G:

    First note is open G string

    Second note is one octave up, B string, fret 8 (I have no idea how to get / insert those snazzy fretboard diagrams...)

    To illustrate my question, the next note in the melody is F...

    2 Choices:

    1. Stay on the B string, so B string, fret 6 OR
    2. Switch strings to the D string, so D string, fret 10

    Similar choices are presented throughout the melody.

    I ask because...

    I'm a saxophone player. 50 years this year (YIKES!). I've played Blue Bossa on saxophone for, well, 50 years... (DOUBLE YIKES!)

    On sax, you can only play a melody in any given key by pressing ONE combination of buttons (alternative / false / special effects fingerings aside...)

    I also play piano (54 years this year - TRIPLE YIKES!). Same deal, a G is a G is a G, octaves aside....

    Whereas on guitar, as all you swinging cats know, the same note can be played by pushing down on different frets (tonal considerations aside).

    Two questions...:

    1. When playing a given melody (e.g., head to Blue Bossa), do you learn ONE combination of fret choices, or do you routinely play the melody by switching freely between the available choices?

    I suppose this question is somewhat related to the "3 note per string" or "4 note per string" rule / preference, but it exists even with 2 notes, as in my example above. BTW, which is preferred, 3 or 4? Or does THAT matter?

    2. When playing a given melody, is there a rule / preference for the number of frets away from the first melody note that one can go? In other words, how "horizontally" or "vertically" should one play the melody? My guess is that when chord melody is being used, then more frets are OK, because that yields more "room" beneath the melody note for the chord to sit (if one is playing the chord / harmony notes exclusively lower in pitch than the melody). When chord melody is not being used, is it merely a matter of tonal color preference? Or is the thought that there is more dexterity with one way (play more horizontally) or the other (play more vertically).

    Thanks...

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I would play that first G on the 4th string, 5th fret. For me, in general, the less movement along the neck the better.

  4. #3

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    Thank you.

    By "less movement," do you mean less movement horizontally or less movement vertically?

  5. #4

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    Different places to play the same note yield different colors and of course different articulations can also alter the meaning of a note. Location and articulation are 2 tools that affect how a melody sounds. What PCjazz expresses is pretty common position for guitarists, stay in one place as much as possible, minimizing shifting, use articulation to shape the melody. This is likely the most rational strategy for an experienced musician but new to guitar person to jump in.
    Exponentially as you have noticed the possible different pathways for fingerings are many.
    Experience success making music on guitar first and then if so inclined you can begin to explore the multitude of alternate choices for your next 54 years.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxophone Tall
    Thank you.

    By "less movement," do you mean less movement horizontally or less movement vertically?
    Less movement along the length, as opposed to across the width, of the neck, generally speaking. Of course there are special situations where this principle does not apply, e.g. Djangoesque 12-fret chromatic runs, but unless there is a good reason for moving the hand a long distance I prefer to keep it localized when possible.

  7. #6

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    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    What PCjazz expresses is pretty common position for guitarists, stay in one place as much as possible, minimizing shifting, use articulation to shape the melody. This is likely the most rational strategy for an experienced musician but new to guitar person to jump in.
    By "stay in one place" and "minimize shifting," do you mean favor the vertical over the horizontal?

    For example, which is preferable from a "shifting," "place" standpoint?

    1. B string, fret 8 (G) > B string, fret 6 (F) > G string, fret 8 (Eb) > G string, fret 7 (D) > D string, fret 10 (C) (5 frets used) OR

    2. B string, fret 8 (G) > G string, fret 10 (F) > G string, fret 8 (Eb) > G string, fret 7 (D) > D string, fret 10 (C)? (4 frets used)?

    3 strings for either one, FWIW... And I favor #2 for tone...

    Thank you!

    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    Experience success making music on guitar first and then if so inclined you can begin to explore the multitude of alternate choices for your next 54 years.
    I really like your optimism!

  8. #7

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    "Horizontally or vertically" needs to be defined with respect to "across
    the width" of the finger board (floor/ceiling) or along the length of the
    finger board (nut /bridge); I have read instances of both definition; for
    me, "vertical" is the nut to bridge dimension, moving "higher up" and
    "lower down" on the neck.

    Three vs four pitches per string does not strictly characterize the fret
    span on a single string; a common form of diatonic scale fingering is
    often played with a five fret span for six of the pitches on two strings
    using three pitches per string spanning five frets, so this may depend
    somewhat on if you utilize three or all four fingers to play the lines.

    The main thing is to remain mentally flexible and not try to enforce a
    strict rule. With time and experience the fingers themselves will know
    the most effective solution for playing a melody line; they will "hear it"
    as you desire to hear that sound of the line and will just automatically
    formulate a good fingering solution... and the more you anticipate the
    hearing of the line (including subsequent parts coming up), the more
    the fingers will hear in advance, and the better the fingering solutions
    because the solution will take into account looking forward to possible
    position shifts (so forming a solution that places the fingers at the end
    of a phrase or part of a line in better position to continue on the next
    phrase or part of the line - and many other invisible mechanics like this.

    This is just like on the sax where you practice scales in all keys to learn
    which of the multiple fingerings are smoothest for each key so that you
    automatically learn to use the specific fingerings for the particular keys.
    Same as on the piano where you practice scales in order to teach your
    hands how to cross your fingers over your thumbs and how to use the
    best finger for the first pitch of a line or phrase, so that the hand is best
    positioned for the playing of the upcoming pitches of the line or phrase.

    The only difference on the guitar is that compared to the sax, all of the
    fingering patterns are "the same" in all keys, so easier than the sax, and
    likewise compared to the piano - the variation of occurrence of black and
    white keys is altogether absent in the schema of a fingering pattern with
    the guitar, same patterns for all keys, so an important simplification here.

    Trust your hands; they are designed to perform extremely complicated
    tasks and will themselves learn to solve any and all fingering challenges
    with experience and listening. Listening is how your hands will learn this.

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxophone Tall
    By "stay in one place" and "minimize shifting," do you mean favor the vertical over the horizontal?

    For example, which is preferable from a "shifting," "place" standpoint?

    1. B string, fret 8 (G) > B string, fret 6 (F) > G string, fret 8 (Eb) > G string, fret 7 (D) > D string, fret 10 (C) (5 frets used) OR

    2. B string, fret 8 (G) > G string, fret 10 (F) > G string, fret 8 (Eb) > G string, fret 7 (D) > D string, fret 10 (C)? (4 frets used)?

    3 strings for either one, FWIW... And I favor #2 for tone...

    Thank you!

    I really like your optimism!
    Re: original question "open G", as a general rule in Jazz guitar we tend to avoid open strings but.....many use them to great effect (Romain Pilon, Jonathan Kreisberg , Gilad Heskelman etc..)

    You've already chosen tone so there's no real best way unless you are imitating /copying a specific version/tone/ interpretation.

    Excerpt from Barry Greene's instructional Blue bossa video..... note how he keeps it all quite compact vertically: http://youtube.com/watch?v=1t0dffJB_8Q à la Joe Pass...

    Or, use them long digits ......Pasquale Grasso does this so well....

    S

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by SOLR
    Re: original question "open G", as a general rule in Jazz guitar we tend to avoid open strings but.....many use them to great effect (Romain Pilon, Jonathan Kreisberg , Gilad Heskelman etc..)
    I actually just stated the open G for simplicity.

    Quote Originally Posted by SOLR
    You've already chosen tone so there's no real best way unless you are imitating /copying a specific version/tone/ interpretation.
    I try to avoid imitation on sax and piano. No reason to start with it on guitar!

    Quote Originally Posted by SOLR;1244652Excerpt from Barry Greene's instructional Blue bossa video..... note how he keeps it all quite compact vertically: [URL
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=1t0dffJB_8Q[/URL] à la Joe Pass...
    Thanks, that should be quite helpful!

    Quote Originally Posted by SOLR
    Or, use them long digits ......Pasquale Grasso does this so well....
    Fantastic player! I look forward to hearing him live and in comparing hand sizes! If his are as big as mine (I doubt it, but one never knows...), I'll happily let him take a spin on my new Eastman Jazz Elite 7 string converted to a 6 string that, finally, fits me!

    S[/QUOTE]

  11. #10

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    One gets different melodic potential depending on how one phrases and that's dependent on whether you approach position wise or whether you approach along the string. When I started out, it was really helpful for me to find comfortable positions by which I could play "across" the strings. But the more I came to hear the phrasing of musical ideas, it became a matter of mixing single string playing with positional playing.
    There are sounds that will be naturally realized from positional playing and sounds that are the result of a Unitar approach. For my own playing, I think strong notes create a gravity that is best served by being open to shifting and sliding and approached by positional scalular thinking.
    I'm still learning about the guitar, myself, but I like letting the phrase dictate the position.
    Some melodic options can be internalized by keeping your mind open to the fact that you, yourself, create the best approach to fingering. Especially in improvisation, there is no one single rule book.
    Last edited by Jimmy blue note; 01-25-2023 at 07:13 PM.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    "Horizontally or vertically" needs to be defined with respect to "across
    the width" of the finger board (floor/ceiling) or along the length of the
    finger board (nut /bridge); I have read instances of both definition; for
    me, "vertical" is the nut to bridge dimension, moving "higher up" and
    "lower down" on the neck.

    Three vs four pitches per string does not strictly characterize the fret
    span on a single string; a common form of diatonic scale fingering is
    often played with a five fret span for six of the pitches on two strings
    using three pitches per string spanning five frets, so this may depend
    somewhat on if you utilize three or all four fingers to play the lines.

    The main thing is to remain mentally flexible and not try to enforce a
    strict rule. With time and experience the fingers themselves will know
    the most effective solution for playing a melody line; they will "hear it"
    as you desire to hear that sound of the line and will just automatically
    formulate a good fingering solution... and the more you anticipate the
    hearing of the line (including subsequent parts coming up), the more
    the fingers will hear in advance, and the better the fingering solutions
    because the solution will take into account looking forward to possible
    position shifts (so forming a solution that places the fingers at the end
    of a phrase or part of a line in better position to continue on the next
    phrase or part of the line - and many other invisible mechanics like this.

    This is just like on the sax where you practice scales in all keys to learn
    which of the multiple fingerings are smoothest for each key so that you
    automatically learn to use the specific fingerings for the particular keys.
    Same as on the piano where you practice scales in order to teach your
    hands how to cross your fingers over your thumbs and how to use the
    best finger for the first pitch of a line or phrase, so that the hand is best
    positioned for the playing of the upcoming pitches of the line or phrase.

    The only difference on the guitar is that compared to the sax, all of the
    fingering patterns are "the same" in all keys, so easier than the sax, and
    likewise compared to the piano - the variation of occurrence of black and
    white keys is altogether absent in the schema of a fingering pattern with
    the guitar, same patterns for all keys, so an important simplification here.

    Trust your hands; they are designed to perform extremely complicated
    tasks and will themselves learn to solve any and all fingering challenges
    with experience and listening. Listening is how your hands will learn this.
    I'm guessing this is a vote concerning the second part of my inquiry, and in favor of NOT "picking one" of the many choices and sticking to it, but rather letting this or that one present itself and going with the flow, so to speak - which is how I've been doing it so far, especially with improvisation.

    When I was in music school, I actually used to practice my tenor saxophone 15 hours a day, which is kind of absurd, but it worked; I
    am pretty much melded to the instrument and can play whatever I want. Of course I'm not there on guitar yet, but getting my new Eastman Jazz Elite 7 > 6 string that actually fits me is huge (and, it's huge!).

    By "vertically," I mean low E string to high E string. By "Horizontally," I mean nut to bridge. Is this incorrect terminology?
    Last edited by Saxophone Tall; 01-24-2023 at 07:54 PM. Reason: add content

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxophone Tall


    Fantastic player! I look forward to hearing him live and in comparing hand sizes! If his are as big as mine (I doubt it, but one never knows...), I'll happily let him take a spin on my new Eastman Jazz Elite 7 string converted to a 6 string that, finally, fits me!

    S
    [/QUOTE]

    I must've missed that post were it finally came to fruition Happy that it all worked out.....

    S

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxophone Tall
    I'm guessing this is a vote concerning the second part of my inquiry, and in favor of NOT "picking one" of the many choices and sticking to it, but rather letting this or that one present itself and going with the flow, so to speak - which is how I've been doing it so far, especially with improvisation.

    When I was in music school, I actually used to practice my tenor saxophone 15 hours a day, which is kind of absurd, but it worked; I
    am pretty much melded to the instrument and can play whatever I want. Of course I'm not there on guitar yet, but getting my new Eastman Jazz Elite 7 > 6 string that actually fits me is huge (and, it's huge!).

    By "vertically," I mean low E string to high E string. By "Horizontally," I mean nut to bridge. Is this incorrect terminology?
    Yeah, most flexibility, especially when improvising (thinking ahead on the fly).

    The vertical/horizontal terminology is too confusing to really be right or wrong;
    wish it would change to "across" or "along" the strings, or something like that.

  15. #14

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    Let the phrase dictate the position is good advice.

    I'm not aware of any rules like 3 or 4 NPS. It all depends on the phrase and where you need to be at the end of it in prep for the next one.

    A lot of times it's more dense than that. Depends on the head. Blue Bossa is one thing, but if you're gonna take on something like Donna Lee you have to optimize your fingerings for the picking and the articulations that suit the head. Sometimes a hammer-on or a slide will be more like the original, and sometimes you need to prepare for that. It should lead you to some new territories. It's about getting the right phrasing.

    Joy Spring's another. Just when I think I've finally nailed it down I get a new idea. Then you work that for a while. Sometimes it's better. Sometimes after you've worked the new one up to tempo you find out the old one was better.

    Even something like Stolen Moments. I've been doing it in octaves forever, but just recently I found a different fingering that just flows the tune better. I'm still practising the new way almost daily because the old was so ingrained I sometimes get stuck between the two.

    Pianists do have the same types of decisions: the note is always in the same place, but you have 10 different possible digits to play it with.

  16. #15

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    Wes Montgomery, playing with his thumb, was probably more aware than most of the "logistics" of fingering. I used to think his fingering was to make it easier for his thumb; I watched videos and thought he seemed to use peculiar fingerings, and I had seen some transcriptions supposed to represent his fingering which also seemed strange... but examining his fingerings, I noticed he crafted his "phrase and movement" fingering perfectly to maximize the effectiveness of using his thumb (not to make up for the thumb, but because I think his thumb was faster than his fingers!). Watch his hands here and notice how his fingering is a chain of connected set-ups that put the end of the previous in front of the next... to save time, to keep up with his thumb.


  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln

    Quote Originally Posted by SOLR
    Re: original question "open G", as a general rule in Jazz guitar we tend to avoid open strings but.....many use them to great effect (Romain Pilon, Jonathan Kreisberg , Gilad Heskelman etc..)

    S
    Ha, just after I talked about open strings I see that Wes starts Round Midnight with open A and uses a few others during the tune ...what do I know

    S

  18. #17

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    Thank you OP, for a reminder of our weird and wonderful guitars!

    Someone mentioned Kreisberg in passing, and I recalled a video of him repeating a short chromatic sequence raising it by a half step each time, beginning on the low strings but high up the neck and spanning the entire fretboard, in which he takes full advantage of the odd guitaristic quirk of there being multiple places to finger the same note. Anyone see it?

    And there’s another of Segovia explaining how the guitar is an orchestra in itself, which refers in part to the timbral variations possible, due to the same quirk.

    About using open strings, there’s a Joe Pass video in which he joked that using too many will put the audience to sleep, and which I took to mean it’s all good, in measured amounts.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by SOLR
    Ha, just after I talked about open strings I see that Wes starts Round Midnight with open A and uses a few others during the tune ...what do I know

    S
    I only used it to make it super easy to know where to start the tune. But let's not forget that open strings are part of what gave bassist James Jamerson his sound. I'm also from Detroit.

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by pauln
    Yeah, most flexibility, especially when improvising (thinking ahead on the fly).

    The vertical/horizontal terminology is too confusing to really be right or wrong;
    wish it would change to "across" or "along" the strings, or something like that.
    I agree! I normally use it to describe improvisational style - horizontally = melodically; vertically = chord change based improv.

    I'll adopt across / along...

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by JazzPadd
    Thank you OP, for a reminder of our weird and wonderful guitars!
    You're welcome!

    I'm not sure which one is weirder - saxophone (plenty weird...) or guitar, but nothing says "weird" to me (in a good way) better than bass clarinet!

    Here's the great Bob Mintzer, co-leader of the Yellowjackets, runs the Jazz program at USC, had the big band with Jaco, etc.. He plays tenor sax & EWI & bass clarinet. I've never heard him perform on it, but he's also an excellent Jazz pianist and has a book out on the subject:


  22. #21

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    Let the phrase dictate the position is good advice.

    I'm not aware of any rules like 3 or 4 NPS. It all depends on the phrase and where you need to be at the end of it in prep for the next one.

    A lot of times it's more dense than that. Depends on the head. Blue Bossa is one thing, but if you're gonna take on something like Donna Lee you have to optimize your fingerings for the picking and the articulations that suit the head. Sometimes a hammer-on or a slide will be more like the original and sometimes you need to prepare for that. It should lead you to some new territories. It's about getting the right phrasing.

    Joy Spring's another. Just when I think I've finally nailed it down I get a new idea. Then you work that for a while. Sometimes it's better. Sometimes after you've worked the new one up to tempo you find out the old one was better.

    Even something like Stolen Moments. I've been doing it in octaves forever, but just recently I found a different fingering that just flows the tune better. I'm still practising the new way almost daily because the old was so ingrained I sometimes get stuck between the two.

    Pianists do have the same types of decisions: the note is always in the same place, but you have 10 different possible digits to play it with.
    It will be interesting to try the be-bop heads, with all those embellishments, on guitar. I won the first chair tenor sax seat by playing Donna Lee and soloing on it (at breakneck tempo) for Michigan State University on a duet with the band director, a fine Jazz pianist (Ron Newman) who was the "2-O'clock band" pianist to Lyle Mays in the fabled "One O'clock" band. I warmed up on the tune every day, so when he picked it for the audition, I was in good shape for it...
    Last edited by Saxophone Tall; 01-25-2023 at 12:45 AM.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by SOLR
    I must've missed that post were it finally came to fruition Happy that it all worked out.....
    Thank you! You heard it here first! I just received it a couple of days ago.

    Measurements (taken with caliper):

    61.40 mm = 2.4175" = 2 53/128" @ RH
    51.75 mm = 2.0370" = 2 5/128" nut itself
    46.38 mm = 1.8260" = 1 53/64" string spacing @ nut

    This thing is exquisite, and Zipracer went above & beyond to convert it for me!

    It fits my hands about as perfectly as possible. The neck isn't deep, so there is no problem reaching the low E. I "thought" I needed /wanted a larger number @ the RH, but any more than the 61.4 mm would make the left hand play area (fretboard) "too" wide. And the RH is great; I can play each string without bumping into the others. I needed bigger @ both ends of the instrument.

    It just might be the world's largest Jazz archtop!

    Here's some photos, taken when I first opened the case, so it still has the low tack tape @ the bridge for shipping.
    Attached Images Attached Images "Frets Per String For Melody" Rule --> How Many?-img_9175-jpeg "Frets Per String For Melody" Rule --> How Many?-img_9176-jpeg "Frets Per String For Melody" Rule --> How Many?-img_9172-jpeg "Frets Per String For Melody" Rule --> How Many?-img_9170-jpeg "Frets Per String For Melody" Rule --> How Many?-img_9171-jpeg "Frets Per String For Melody" Rule --> How Many?-img_9169-jpeg "Frets Per String For Melody" Rule --> How Many?-img_9178-jpeg 
    Last edited by Saxophone Tall; 01-25-2023 at 12:53 AM. Reason: formatting

  24. #23

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    I must've missed that post were it finally came to fruition Happy that it all worked out.....

    S[/QUOTE]

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by SOLR
    Re: original question "open G", as a general rule in Jazz guitar we tend to avoid open strings but.....many use them to great effect (Romain Pilon, Jonathan Kreisberg , Gilad Heskelman etc..)

    You've already chosen tone so there's no real best way unless you are imitating /copying a specific version/tone/ interpretation.

    Excerpt from Barry Greene's instructional Blue bossa video..... note how he keeps it all quite compact vertically: http://youtube.com/watch?v=1t0dffJB_8Q à la Joe Pass...

    Or, use them long digits ......Pasquale Grasso does this so well....
    Yep!

  26. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Saxophone Tall
    I must've missed that post were it finally came to fruition Happy that it all worked out.....
    [/QUOTE]
    Thanks!