"Frets Per String For Melody" Rule --> How Many?

[RyanM]

I would play that first G on the 4th string, 5th fret. For me, in general, the less movement along the neck the better.

Metheny, Wes, Bernstein, Hall, etc all play more linearly rather than stay in one position

[Alter]

There 's no exact rules, and everyone tends to move differently on the neck. But each genre and each player develop some usual movements, which become important to know if going after a similar sound and playing. This applies both in movement and fingerings they use.

Generally moving across frets tends to give a more uniform sound compared to moving across strings (since you don't change as many strings), and most players move a bit higher up the neck when moving towards higher notes, and lower when playing lower notes.

[Saxophone Tall]

Metheny, Wes, Bernstein, Hall, etc all play more linearly rather than stay in one position

Well, there's a vote for linear (across frets)!

[Saxophone Tall]

Also, if I am going to try to play chord melody, I see that one is supposed to play the melody as much as possible on the top two highest pitched strings.

I found a cool tab app for my iPad and mapped out Blue Bossa in this fashion. It's at the headstock portion of the neck, however, unless one changes keys or goes up an octave. Also, to play the second part of the melody, one would have to go up that octave to stay on the top two strings, but I didn't do that.

[ecj]

When I was a younger player I focused more on the "stay in one 5-fret position" school of thought on melodies. There's nothing wrong with this approach, and it can help you absorb a lot of melodies and handle them well.

But...

For a second consider the fact that you don't stay in one position while soloing. You bounce around to fit different licks in, find positions over chords that are most comfortable, climb up the next for higher registers, etc.

And then consider, is there really anything different about playing a melody? When I started playing more solo guitar I started thinking more about the connection between the melody and the underlying chords, and I've kind of drifted away from trying to stay in a box. To me, melodic figures are kind of like licks, and I like to bounce around the neck while I play melodies. Makes it easier to put in fills, etc., and I think it connects me more to what's happening underneath the melody.

So, like in Blue Bossa, your first melodic figure is a "lick" over a C- chord. Then there are some cool ii-V "licks" that, to me, make more sense to line up with the chords than impose on a scale shape.

Just food for thought.

[Saxophone Tall]

For a second consider the fact that you don't stay in one position while soloing. You bounce around to fit different licks in, find positions over chords that are most comfortable, climb up the next for higher registers, etc.

That's what I've been doing up until now, but due to the availability of choices, I wanted to get some consensus on how to proceed. It does occur to me that playing more across the strings limits the ability to put chords under the melody.

I'm thinking that I should map out melodies on the highest pitch strings possible (within reason) for the purpose of adding chords?

I probably should have mentioned that the target is solo guitar, although I can see playing guitar with a core unit of bass and drums while I alternate between saxophone, piano and guitar.... But I can also see taking a guitar to a Jazz jam session along with my saxophone, where I wouldn't have to worry about comping while soloing...

[SOLR]

Re: original question "open G", as a general rule in Jazz guitar we tend to avoid open strings but.....many use them to great effect (Romain Pilon, Jonathan Kreisberg , Gilad Heskelman etc..)

S

I should edit my statement to include this....not that this affects the outcome of the conversation

Many jazz players that use open strings have a damper at the nut....like so : Attributed to George Van Eps...

Copied from another thread :

Jazz guitar is played chiefly between the 4th and 12th frets. Examine the neck wear patterns on instruments from the 30s-60s. It's due to playing with horns... keys of Ab, Eb, Bb.

Ellis, Hall, etc., didn't use open strings, which tended to howl on archtops anyway. Hence, the Van Eps string damper.

Greentone

link to whole discussion : Can anyone tell me what that thing on Herb Ellis' guitar headstock is?

S

[SOLR]

Again I'll post a link to Barry Green's instruction , at the 3 min mark on that video he offers a little adaptation of the scales to move over the fretboard more efficiently..... might be of interest

. The voicing part is also very smart. around 18 min...

S

[Saxophone Tall]

I should edit my statement to include this....not that this affects the outcome of the conversation

Many jazz players that use open strings have a damper at the nut....like so : Attributed to George Van Eps...

Copied from another thread :

Jazz guitar is played chiefly between the 4th and 12th frets. Examine the neck wear patterns on instruments from the 30s-60s. It's due to playing with horns... keys of Ab, Eb, Bb.

Ellis, Hall, etc., didn't use open strings, which tended to howl on archtops anyway. Hence, the Van Eps string damper.

Greentone

link to whole discussion : Can anyone tell me what that thing on Herb Ellis' guitar headstock is?

S

As a horn player, yeah, we like the flat keys - the military system won out. So when guitars play in E, it's F# or C# for us saxophonists. Stuff lays much better on sax in the flat keys.

Apparently that gizmo lets the open notes NOT "ring out..."

So, what about playing an acoustic guitar for Jazz? I'd like to get one, but it's got to be totally custom, since nobody makes a 7 string acoustic with a wide fretboard at the RH area.

[SOLR]

As a horn player, yeah, we like the flat keys - the military system won out. So when guitars play in E, it's F# or C# for us saxophonists. Stuff lays much better on sax in the flat keys.

Apparently that gizmo lets the open notes NOT "ring out..."

So, what about playing an acoustic guitar for Jazz? I'd like to get one, but it's got to be totally custom, since nobody makes a 7 string acoustic with a wide fretboard at the RH area.

From this article...VintageArchtop.com

It was designed to eliminate sympathetic vibrations in open strings of an amplified archtop, thereby achieving a better tonal balance between open and fretted notes Hair scrunchies also work, there's more about the item in the link I posted.

S

[rpjazzguitar]

There are multiple issues. If the tune is slow enough, it doesn't matter that much how you finger it. Except, you can slide to notes, which might sound nice. Also, the same note sounds a little different on each string and you might care about that.

When the tempo gets faster you need to be sufficiently economical in your approach to fingering.

Typically, you start by looking for the highest and lowest notes in the passage and pick a position where you can access them. You look for rests, because even a 16th note rest may be enough to switch positions.

Then it depends on how you manage your right hand. You need a fingering that you can execute smoothly with your right hand. I believe that this is less of an issue for economy-picking than alternate.

Don't forget that switching position can be done quite fast.

My only other suggestion is to spend time thinking about alternative fingerings for difficult passages. The goal is to find a fingering that feels effortless and which you can execute at speed with every note sounding pristene. That's the distant star.

[Saxophone Tall]

From this article...VintageArchtop.com

It was designed to eliminate sympathetic vibrations in open strings of an amplified archtop, thereby achieving a better tonal balance between open and fretted notes Hair scrunchies also work, there's more about the item in the link I posted.

S

Thanks! Hair scrunchies are great for wrapping around the neck of a saxophone next to the mouthpiece, also on wind synths, to keep the spit off the horn's finish!

[Saxophone Tall]

There are multiple issues. If the tune is slow enough, it doesn't matter that much how you finger it. Except, you can slide to notes, which might sound nice. Also, the same note sounds a little different on each string and you might care about that.

When the tempo gets faster you need to be sufficiently economical in your approach to fingering.

Typically, you start by looking for the highest and lowest notes in the passage and pick a position where you can access them. You look for rests, because even a 16th note rest may be enough to switch positions.

Then it depends on how you manage your right hand. You need a fingering that you can execute smoothly with your right hand. I believe that this is less of an issue for economy-picking than alternate.

Don't forget that switching position can be done quite fast.

My only other suggestion is to spend time thinking about alternative fingerings for difficult passages. The goal is to find a fingering that feels effortless and which you can execute at speed with every note sounding pristene. That's the distant star.

Good points, thank you!

[ecj]

That's what I've been doing up until now, but due to the availability of choices, I wanted to get some consensus on how to proceed. It does occur to me that playing more across the strings limits the ability to put chords under the melody.

I'm thinking that I should map out melodies on the highest pitch strings possible (within reason) for the purpose of adding chords?

I probably should have mentioned that the target is solo guitar, although I can see playing guitar with a core unit of bass and drums while I alternate between saxophone, piano and guitar.... But I can also see taking a guitar to a Jazz jam session along with my saxophone, where I wouldn't have to worry about comping while soloing...

For solo guitar I would recommend trying to put the melody on the top 2 strings, and cascade down from there. I’d say 80% of the melody notes are on the B or E strings in all my solo arrangements, only dropping down to the G string when it’s very convenient to get to another higher note.

That will require a lot of shifting around for sure, but it’s the only way I’ve found to get nice voicings underneath.

[charleyrich99]

Is there a "rule of thumb" or "preferred" limit to the number of frets that any given melody should only use?

I don't mean when improvising, I mean when actually playing the melody itself.

For example: Blue Bossa, Key of G:

First note is open G string

Second note is one octave up, B string, fret 8 (I have no idea how to get / insert those snazzy fretboard diagrams...)

To illustrate my question, the next note in the melody is F...

2 Choices:

1. Stay on the B string, so B string, fret 6 OR
2. Switch strings to the D string, so D string, fret 10

Similar choices are presented throughout the melody.

I ask because...

I'm a saxophone player. 50 years this year (YIKES!). I've played Blue Bossa on saxophone for, well, 50 years... (DOUBLE YIKES!)

On sax, you can only play a melody in any given key by pressing ONE combination of buttons (alternative / false / special effects fingerings aside...)

I also play piano (54 years this year - TRIPLE YIKES!). Same deal, a G is a G is a G, octaves aside....

Whereas on guitar, as all you swinging cats know, the same note can be played by pushing down on different frets (tonal considerations aside).

Two questions...:

1. When playing a given melody (e.g., head to Blue Bossa), do you learn ONE combination of fret choices, or do you routinely play the melody by switching freely between the available choices?

I suppose this question is somewhat related to the "3 note per string" or "4 note per string" rule / preference, but it exists even with 2 notes, as in my example above. BTW, which is preferred, 3 or 4? Or does THAT matter?

2. When playing a given melody, is there a rule / preference for the number of frets away from the first melody note that one can go? In other words, how "horizontally" or "vertically" should one play the melody? My guess is that when chord melody is being used, then more frets are OK, because that yields more "room" beneath the melody note for the chord to sit (if one is playing the chord / harmony notes exclusively lower in pitch than the melody). When chord melody is not being used, is it merely a matter of tonal color preference? Or is the thought that there is more dexterity with one way (play more horizontally) or the other (play more vertically).

Thanks...

All technique rules aside, sometimes you can express the feeling you have internally and express it into the melody with greater fluidity by playing it on a single string. Try it on a ballad and you will see what I mean.

[Christian Miller]

I notice a lot of players including Kurt Rosenwinkel and Peter Bernstein play along the length of the neck a lot when playing a melody

thrres value in playing positionally, but there’s also value in playing along a string. In general slides and shifts add musicality and vocal quality to lines, positional playing adds precision; so the former is good for melody. Most music requires a mixed approach.

sticking to the B and E strings gives a lot of scope for voicings but I don’t personally like transposing the melody too high.

playing the melody in lots of positions and in different keys is a good exercise. Let your ears be the guide…..

[Saxophone Tall]

Again I'll post a link to Barry Green's instruction , at the 3 min mark on that video he offers a little adaptation of the scales to move over the fretboard more efficiently..... might be of interest

. The voicing part is also very smart. around 18 min...

S

Thank you!

[Saxophone Tall]

I notice a lot of players including Kurt Rosenwinkel and Peter Bernstein play along the length of the neck a lot when playing a melody

thrres value in playing positionally, but there’s also value in playing along a string. In general slides and shifts add musicality and vocal quality to lines, positional playing adds precision; so the former is good for melody. Most music requires a mixed approach.

sticking to the B and E strings gives a lot of scope for voicings but I don’t personally like transposing the melody too high.

playing the melody in lots of positions and in different keys is a good exercise. Let your ears be the guide…..

Thank you, great points! I like a lower pitch tessitura for the melody myself, being a tenor player.

[Saxophone Tall]

All technique rules aside, sometimes you can express the feeling you have internally and express it into the melody with greater fluidity by playing it on a single string. Try it on a ballad and you will see what I mean.

That's much easier for me to conceptualize, too, and it's saxophone and piano-like.

[Saxophone Tall]

For solo guitar I would recommend trying to put the melody on the top 2 strings, and cascade down from there. I’d say 80% of the melody notes are on the B or E strings in all my solo arrangements, only dropping down to the G string when it’s very convenient to get to another higher note.

That will require a lot of shifting around for sure, but it’s the only way I’ve found to get nice voicings underneath.

How would you tackle Blue Bossa? Start on the 3rd fret, top E string like I maped out, and just play into the lower stings? Octave displacement when you run out of top strings? Change key?

[ecj]

How would you tackle Blue Bossa? Start on the 3rd fret, top E string like I maped out, and just play into the lower stings? Octave displacement when you run out of top strings? Change key?

Changing key is always an option with these things, and I think underutilized. Since I sing, too, and have a bass voice I almost always transpose tunes. I think basically only with some bossa stuff am I ever playing tunes in the standard key since so many were written for soprano female voices.

That being said, with Blue Bossa my solo arrangement looks at the low tones as just like a springboard. Don't worry too much about melodic figures that do the low-note pickup to a big high note. Just put the low-note wherever it's easy to grab.

I'd start by fingering the standard C-7 shape on the third fret, then grab the G using your third finger, fifth fret, and hit the high G on third fret. Then you can keep that same chord shape for the descending pattern. One thing that's good to practice is chord shapes with every possible melody note on top. I'd end the first phrase with a C-7 shape that has the C on the first fret of the B-string.

Then for the next one, same deal. You can fret the classic F-7 shape on the first fret, grab the notes where you need, and do the higher notes (G-F) using your pinky off the F-7 bar.

Then I'd pop up to the F on the B-string to use the standard half diminished shape for the D-7b5 and structure that melodic figure around switching to the G7alt on the third fret.

In this key, you might need to pop down to triads as you move through the Dbmaj ii-V-I lick, but that can be cool, especially when you have the Gb over the Db. I just finger that as a fourth for a cool effect. Same deal on the next lick. If you have more voicings you can grab the next few notes really low which sounds kind of cool.

I think my biggest thing is using chord shapes that make sense, because then it's easier to improvise over it instead of having a true "arrangement" that feels static.

I mocked up a quick vid of the kinds of shapes I might do for Blue Bossa. I haven't tried this solo before, so excuse the sloppiness on transitions, but it's food for thought:

[Saxophone Tall]

Changing key is always an option with these things, and I think underutilized. Since I sing, too, and have a bass voice I almost always transpose tunes. I think basically only with some bossa stuff am I ever playing tunes in the standard key since so many were written for soprano female voices.

That being said, with Blue Bossa my solo arrangement looks at the low tones as just like a springboard. Don't worry too much about melodic figures that do the low-note pickup to a big high note. Just put the low-note wherever it's easy to grab.

I'd start by fingering the standard C-7 shape on the third fret, then grab the G using your third finger, fifth fret, and hit the high G on third fret. Then you can keep that same chord shape for the descending pattern. One thing that's good to practice is chord shapes with every possible melody note on top. I'd end the first phrase with a C-7 shape that has the C on the first fret of the B-string.

Then for the next one, same deal. You can fret the classic F-7 shape on the first fret, grab the notes where you need, and do the higher notes (G-F) using your pinky off the F-7 bar.

Then I'd pop up to the F on the B-string to use the standard half diminished shape for the D-7b5 and structure that melodic figure around switching to the G7alt on the third fret.

In this key, you might need to pop down to triads as you move through the Dbmaj ii-V-I lick, but that can be cool, especially when you have the Gb over the Db. I just finger that as a fourth for a cool effect. Same deal on the next lick. If you have more voicings you can grab the next few notes really low which sounds kind of cool.

I think my biggest thing is using chord shapes that make sense, because then it's easier to improvise over it instead of having a true "arrangement" that feels static.

I mocked up a quick vid of the kinds of shapes I might do for Blue Bossa. I haven't tried this solo before, so excuse the sloppiness on transitions, but it's food for thought:

That sounds nice! Ive been playing it much faster, like I do on saxophone. I can't quite make out the chord shape - what is it? I've only been using the ones below. It would be 3,3,4 on 5,3,2 for the C-7. Thanks!

[ecj]

That sounds nice! Ive been playing it much faster, like I do on saxophone. I can't quite make out the chord shape - what is it? I've only been using the ones below. It would be 3,3,4 on 5,3,2 for the C-7. Thanks!

One option that works well if playing faster is just do the chord underneath the first note of each melody phrase. Don’t do the whole one man band thing, just hit the high G above the C-7 for example then play the rest of the melodic figures single line. A lot of my pick arrangements are like that.

A lot of the shapes I used in the vid are to help get the root as the melody note. I usually grab the root in the bass with my third finger, pinky grabs the 7th, and then first comes up for the root. If I can I’ll grab the third with my middle finger or by barring with the first if it’s minor.

All the other shapes are just standard grips or a simple triad where the 5th is on top.

Welcome to the confusing world of guitar fingerings, haha! I often with there was just one place to play each note.

[Saxophone Tall]

One option that works well if playing faster is just do the chord underneath the first note of each melody phrase. Don’t do the whole one man band thing, just hit the high G above the C-7 for example then play the rest of the melodic figures single line. A lot of my pick arrangements are like that.

A lot of the shapes I used in the vid are to help get the root as the melody note. I usually grab the root in the bass with my third finger, pinky grabs the 7th, and then first comes up for the root. If I can I’ll grab the third with my middle finger or by barring with the first if it’s minor.

All the other shapes are just standard grips or a simple triad where the 5th is on top.

Welcome to the confusing world of guitar fingerings, haha! I often with there was just one place to play each note.

Are you using any of the voicings I wrote out? Root, 3, 7. I don't know what "standard grips" means! Remember, I'm a saxophone player (of 50 years this year, Yikes!), but new to guitar.

BTW, it sounds like you are in C-, with the first note of the melody at G, but it LOOKS like you are playing the melody closer to the bridge.

[Saxophone Tall]

Here's one minute of my "Blue Bossa" solo on alto sax (my 100 year old one) in Berlin at the "Hat Bar" in October, 2022: