What do you prefer in music, originality or tradition?

[James W]

Is the aesthetic effect of serial music much different to free “atonal” music?

Hard to generalise on this one, much depends on the particular composer. I mean, there is more in common between Berg's free atonal music and his serial music than there is between his free atonal music and Webern's free atonal music.

If not, then certainly the aesthetic of that music has had a huge influence on European improvisers.

Agreed. Derek Bailey for one.

[RLetson]

My head is spinning just a bit from this long and interesting conversation, but for some reason a phrase of John Gardner's keeps floating up into the Magic 8-Ball window: "Systems spin free." And my recollection of the context (a graduate course more than a half-century ago) suggests that the answer to "free from what?" is something like "the actual messy world." (A bit of overlap with or interference from Wallace Stevens' squirming facts/squamous mind dyad in there as well.)

Floating-up uffish thought #2: "High modernism" contains a possible critique in its name. Especially in a conversation that includes the memory of the shock of the Beatles' newness.

And a third: Generative systems are kind of interesting, but like system-heavy interpretive/analytical schemes, they come up against that squirming-world phenomenon. I have a whole set-piece account of my dissertation project that describes my trajectory through the world of literary analytical theories. I got better.

And finally: Art is what you can get away with, no?

[Christian Miller]

I also have this unread book on my shelf glaring at me.

John O'Gallagher - Book

[Christian Miller]

Floating-up uffish thought #2: "High modernism" contains a possible critique in its name. Especially in a conversation that includes the memory of the shock of the Beatles' newness.

Quite

[James W]

I also have this unread book on my shelf glaring at me.

John O'Gallagher - Book

Seen him with Paul Dunmall, Tony Bianco, Faith Brackenbury and John Pope earlier this year. It was intense even by free jazz standards! Loved it.

[Christian Miller]

And a third: Generative systems are kind of interesting, but like system-heavy interpretive/analytical schemes, they come up against that squirming-world phenomenon. I have a whole set-piece account of my dissertation project that describes my trajectory through the world of literary analytical theories. I got better.

I don't know. What followed serialism was also systems music, its just that the system was simpler and more obvious to the listener as an organising principle of the music than in the more advanced serialism, which I think is something you could also say of quite a lot of Benjamin Britten. The procedures that Arvo Part uses to compose his music are simple enough to taught in a YouTube video. But many of these minimalists were taught by serialists (such as Reich who studied with Berio) and a few of them (such as Part and Gorecki) started as serialists. No wonder the serialists hated them, they were 'sell outs'! And yet I don't think that music could have been written without the influence of serialism.

[RLetson]

I suppose one test of the effectiveness of a music-generating theory/system would be (assuming the programming is feasible) what kind of work would be produced by a computer program employing it. In fact, haven't some of the new AI systems been given such tasks? I have to reluctantly admit that (based on what my wife's students are turning in as their own) the latest iterations are producing text that does not read like the writing of a rather dull middle-schooler. (Poetry and fiction I'm not so sure about.)

I find the whole matter of system-generated art fascinating, partly because the writing biz is (and has long been) awash in how-to schemes that often offer decent advice on specific problems but seen to my wife (who is a writer and a teacher of writing) to not quite get all the way there. Though, to be sure, there are influential books, particularly about screenwriting (Syd Field's Screenplay: The Foundations of Screenwriting seems to be the industry standard manual), but I'm certain that it's possible to follow all the rules and still produce a stiff.

[emanresu]

Actually I prefer "uniqueness". You know, the thing that makes something not only to stand out but to imply that the world would be poorer without it.
Originality vs tradition really doesn't matter so much for me.
Picked originality because there is an effort to refresh and also, I rather not listen to stuff while judging their authenticity the same time..

[RLetson]

On reflection, maybe "individuality" might be a more useful descriptor for whatever it is that stands in contrast to "tradition" or "originality" or whatever tension between the familiar and unfamiliar one is fussing over. I suspect that even in the very tradition-bound, um, traditions there arise traits that allow the listener to distinguish among and between practitioners. (That's certainly the case with Hawaiian slack key guitar.) I find that I can often identify a singer within a couple bars, and among instrumentalists, Chet Baker and Ruby Braff or Coleman Hawkins and Zoot Sims are quite distinct. And they all operate in the more or less traditional jazz space. (I don't listen to enough free/experimental jazz to know whether such voice distinctions are as easy to hear there.)

[Christian Miller]

I prefer original traditionalist. A non-purist traditionalist.

Not such an easy creature to find…


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[charlieparker]

Old thread, but I prefer something that sounds good to me. And I typically prefer something that has a lot of craft and polish, so I would lean towards tradition as the implication is that you are doing something in an established tradition that requires those elements but that isn't always the case.

Originality is overrated, IMO. I think the best things evolve for the most part as opposed to being spontaneously conceived.

[princeplanet]

The Bop to Post Bop era is my favourite frame work from which to explore my own (hopefully) original spin on it, along with seeking out people from either the past or present who seek/sought the same. It's not dodging the question because for me it's a more exacting description of my preferences than the 2 options offered. There's a lot of ongoing future scope for endless creative potential for fresh original ideas yet to be uncovered between those flags. The post bop era was just warming up before it was killed off by the mad rush to seem hip with the kids (fusion, jazz rock, avant gard etc). I don't feel these "progressive" chapters in Jazz have aged all that well...

Which is why I always say that it's not regressive to go back to exploring uncovered ground in the Post Bop space, in fact, it's where you find the cool people!