What do you prefer in music, originality or tradition?

[James W]

So I don’t know that serialism can be said to be inherently an innovative tradition.l, any more than any other technique one might use to construct music. It’s something people do at music college. Maybe it has the illusion of innovation based on the fact that it has been resistance to widespread popularity, which adherents sometimes used as a badge of honour. Which is kind of sad.

But modernism is a founded on a set of very unexamined set of presuppositions about the world. It is the image of reason, not reason.

I find it endearing mostly. I had quite a free wheeling relationship with it all. But I don’t think you can discount the lived experiences of those who experienced dogmatic serialist composition teachers and didn’t get on with it, and there was plenty of those. Some on here. Some rebelled and made their own new conventions.

Anyway all ancient history now. Mods and rockers. Old tribalisms die away…

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There is no illusion of innovation - the proof is in the listening to it (serial/modernist music, that is) and how it expanded and expands radically the possibilities of music.

As to the rest of your post - I see just as withering, sort of patronising attempts at putting it down because you don't like it. Oh yeah, and that old canard - the dogmatic serialist compostion teacher, of which there were plenty apparently. What unexamined presuppositions are you talking about?

[Christian Miller]

There is no illusion of innovation - the proof is in the listening to it (serial/modernist music, that is) and how it expanded and expands radically the possibilities of music.

They expanded radically the possibilities of music several decades ago. I still think the music of Solage, Gesualdo, Lawes and late Beethoven is pretty out there, but it doesn't mean it's literally innovative now does it? If someone writes a serial piece for a composition assignment it’s just another Tuesday…

What all of that stuff can do is provide a 'shock of the new' for those unfamiliar with it. In today's incredibly culturally rich and interconnected world this can happen in a very atemporal and personal way. In earlier times it was usually connected to a prevailing culture. Records and radio started to change this. Now we have the web.

OTOH we've had this cult of tradition in classical music for much of the 20th century. It's fascinating to me that there was no historical repertoire in Mozart's time. The only music played was contemporary.

As to the rest of your post - I see just as withering, sort of patronising attempts at putting it down because you don't like it.

I think modernism deserves to patronised MORE, partly because it so incredibly paternalistic and it is funny to me. The music is not the thing I have a problem with.

Oh yeah, and that old canard - the dogmatic serialist compostion teacher, of which there were plenty apparently.

I've heard plenty of stories. Here on the forum even. Maybe you think they are all lying?

I dunno, my own experiences have been positive.

What unexamined presuppositions are you talking about?

I think all the critiques made by post-modernism are accurate and valid. I'm not sure I'm a post modernist - but I do think the image of the future presented by the post war modernists was essentially a monocultural and tacitly Eurocentric one. That's all been well discussed and the subject of many undergraduate papers...

So, I would say the main aspect that I want to draw attention to that its top down approach to culture is in stark contradiction to the way culture has always arisen in history.

Adorno is both an insightful and also vaguely comic figure in this context. The fact that I think he has many amazing insights (he was a very very clever man) doesn't alter the fact that I think he was blind to the possibillties of popular culture. It was all the culture industry to him.

Boulez for instance believed his musical revolution could be effected through cultural capture of radio stations and concert halls, as well as the foundation of new cultural centres such as IRCAM. This TBF seems a very French way to go on.

It is very funny to me to me that none of this really worked as expected in the long run. Serial music didn't achieve much in the way of cultural hegemony. Technocratic projects often go that way, and I take great comfort from this fact. Berio kind of got it, I think.

And yet, these Boulezian projects did open up people's ears to the possibilities of avant garde art. The BBC Third Programme in 60's UK for example. It's just that rock musicians for instance, saw this art as part of an eclectic array of choices and sounds they could use in their own expression.

And yet exposure to different kinds of music can be hard to find in mainstream culture these days. And yet things come up. Partly it’s a responsibility of the educator.

[Mick-7]

How about mindblowing originality achieved by completely deconstructing and recomposing tradition? I believe I read that this piece is based on Gillespie’s Anthropology and thanks again to James W here, by the way.

Shakti, John Mclaughlin's group, has been doing this sort of thing with Indian vocalists for well over 20 years now.

[ragman1]

I tell you what might be 'original', not Indian singing to bebop but scat singing a la Ella to Indian music. Imagine.

[kris]

How to classify Miles Davis' bands in the 80s?
For me it's music.

[Litterick]

How to classify Miles Davis' bands in the 80s?
For me it's music.

If you owned a record store, how would you arrange the stock?.

[James W]

They expanded radically the possibilities of music several decades ago. I still think the music of Solage, Gesualdo, Lawes and late Beethoven is pretty out there, but it doesn't mean it's literally innovative now does it? If someone writes a serial piece for a composition assignment it’s just another Tuesday…

You keep coming back to the fact that serialism is taught at college - but it isn't the rhetorical 'gotcha' that you appear to think it is.

But sure - why shouldn't that serial composition assignment be innovative? My point is that the expansion of musical possibilities continues to this day and it includes serial techniques as well as other techniques.

Case in point - how old do you think canonic technique is? At least 800 years, something like that off the top of my head. And yet composers still use it to this day and in the right hands it still sounds fresh. For example, listen to this piece starting from 1:27 -

So it's a little odd to claim that serialism was innovative for how long? (you don't mention) several decades ago, then for some reason stopped being innovative. Would I be expecting too much of you for you to provide evidence for these assertions of yours? (I might add that 'serialism' means little in and of itself, but I think we're using it in the sense of being synonymous with the music of the post-WW2 musical High Modernists).

[Christian Miller]

You keep coming back to the fact that serialism is taught at college - but it isn't the rhetorical 'gotcha' that you appear to think it is.

But sure - why shouldn't that serial composition assignment be innovative? My point is that the expansion of musical possibilities continues to this day and it includes serial techniques as well as other techniques.

Case in point - how old do you think canonic technique is? At least 800 years, something like that off the top of my head. And yet composers still use it to this day and in the right hands it still sounds fresh. For example, listen to this piece starting from 1:27 -

So it's a little odd to claim that serialism was innovative for how long? (you don't mention) several decades ago, then for some reason stopped being innovative. Would I be expecting too much of you for you to provide evidence for these assertions of yours? (I might add that 'serialism' means little in and of itself, but I think we're using it in the sense of being synonymous with the music of the post-WW2 musical High Modernists).

You seem to now be saying something different to what you were saying earlier.


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[Christian Miller]

You keep coming back to the fact that serialism is taught at college - but it isn't the rhetorical 'gotcha' that you appear to think it is.

But sure - why shouldn't that serial composition assignment be innovative? My point is that the expansion of musical possibilities continues to this day and it includes serial techniques as well as other techniques.

Case in point - how old do you think canonic technique is? At least 800 years, something like that off the top of my head. And yet composers still use it to this day and in the right hands it still sounds fresh. For example, listen to this piece starting from 1:27 -

So it's a little odd to claim that serialism was innovative for how long? (you don't mention) several decades ago, then for some reason stopped being innovative. Would I be expecting too much of you for you to provide evidence for these assertions of yours? (I might add that 'serialism' means little in and of itself, but I think we're using it in the sense of being synonymous with the music of the post-WW2 musical High Modernists).

Vis a vis Boulez I think all my favourite pieces of his are after the Integral Serialism era. He didn’t generally like to break down his methods (although he did once I believe, I may even have the article somewhere) and OTOH his pieces really can’t be analysed from the perspective of serialism either.

It is understood that he would alter the pitch choices etc after the procedure was run, using serialism as a way to generate initial material but not to dictate the nature of the final music. You can see that in his later scores where there are many occurrences of repeated notes and consonant intervals, quite unlike the dodecaphonic Webern works.

It seems to that this is in part using a compositional procedure to defeat the dreaded Blank Page problem - which comes for us all in the creative endeavours. We all need ways of doing that. I find it always easier to work on an idea than come up with one. (Obviously that’s why people have notebooks etc.)

So it doesn’t seem to me that many of his works can be said to be serialist. He was following some sort of intuitive aesthetic principle. So this is what I mean by ‘moving on.’ He didn’t abandon the aesthetic of that music, but neither did he carry on with what he was doing in his 20s.

OTOH my favourite Boulez piece is probably the orchestral Notations (aren’t they orchestrations of early total serial works?). This is largely because of the sense of instrumental colour which is present in all his ensemble music. I have to say I perceive this music as being more about gesture and colour (and sometimes rhythm) than about pitch choices. I’m sure I’m being basic.

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[James W]

You seem to now be saying something different to what you were saying earlier.


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I don't think so. I was contradicting your categorical assertions that serialism stopped being innovative decades ago. My point is that it still can be used innovatively, that it continued being innovative after that time.

[Christian Miller]

I don't think so. I was contradicting your categorical assertions that serialism stopped being innovative decades ago. My point is that it still can be used innovatively, that it continued being innovative after that time.

You seemed to be asserting that serialism was de facto the music of innovation, and now no longer seem to be making that assertion.


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[Peter C]

Shakti, John Mclaughlin's group, has been doing this sort of thing with Indian vocalists for well over 20 years now.

Right, so McLaughlin and L. Shankar formed Shakti in the 70s and their album from that time "A handful of beauty" actually kicked off with a mesmerising flurry of Carnatic-style vocals (I'm not an expert on Indian music genres). I believe that was the first track called La Danse du Bonheur and I wore that album out. So yeah, certainly around for more than 20 years

I'm also not an authority on the group Trio HLK or their chronology; I just love listening to them. I do think that by fixating on the performance of the wonderful vocalist Varijashree Venugopal, we're not hearing the depth of the composition and arrangement of "Anthropometricks", of which there is a live performance dating back to 2019 without vocals. Great move to include her in the studio recording though.

I mean, they have also collborated with the great Evelyn Glennie on vibraphone (she's deaf - check her out on ted.com) but that doesn't mean they're going for a Metheny / Gary Burton thing.

[Christian Miller]

Ant’s another student of Asaf, my Konnakol teacher, but he’s gone far more into it.

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[James W]

You seemed to be asserting that serialism was de facto the music of innovation, and now no longer seem to be making that assertion.


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Quotes where you think I stated serialism was de facto the music of innovation, please.

Look at your posts from no. 83 onwards. You've alternately described serialism as only innovative 80 years ago, to something that only happens at music school, and that it's easily assessable, that it became conservative etc. All falsehoods which I felt the need to contradict, though I never said serialism was by definition innovatory, just that its most notable practitioners generally have been innovatory.

[pamosmusic]

I want you two to get along, so I’m going to give you a common enemy.

I hate serialism so much.

[Christian Miller]

Quotes where you think I stated serialism was de facto the music of innovation, please.

Look at your posts from no. 83 onwards. You've alternately described serialism as only innovative 80 years ago, to something that only happens at music school, and that it's easily assessable, that it became conservative etc. All falsehoods which I felt the need to contradict, though I never said serialism was by definition innovatory, just that its most notable practitioners generally have been innovatory.

I don’t think I said some of those things?

I said for instance that serialism was a technique that was innovative 80 years ago but is now very much established.

As an exercise witting a short serial piece is something that is teachable. You teach the technique and assess how well it is applied.

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[Christian Miller]

But rather than go back and pick apart the wording of rather long posts, I’ll just ask you if you agree with the statement I made post #111 because that’s what I was arguing by against. I don’t think anything I said is very relevant if you don’t agree with that.

EDIT: it doesn’t seem that you do.

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[James W]

Vis a vis Boulez I think all my favourite pieces of his are after the Integral Serialism era. He didn’t generally like to break down his methods (although he did once I believe, I may even have the article somewhere) and OTOH his pieces really can’t be analysed from the perspective of serialism either.

It is understood that he would alter the pitch choices etc after the procedure was run, using serialism as a way to generate initial material but not to dictate the nature of the final music. You can see that in his later scores where there are many occurrences of repeated notes and consonant intervals, quite unlike the dodecaphonic Webern works.

Perhaps something to do with his increasing appreciation of Berg? But anyway, I have Jonathan Goldman's book on Boulez's Musical Language, and I'll quote some of the opening paragraph of his chapter on the piece Mémoriale - 'This analytical framework will be used in an effort to show how a work with an apparently free and improvisatory character can hide a highly rigorous underlying structure, not unlike those used in the so-called 'automatic writing' period of Boulez's short-lived experiments with total serialism'. It's also worth noting that Le marteau sans maitre also appears to be freer than preceding total serial works but that this was achieved by expanding the serial techniques, including pitch-class multiplication.

It seems to that this is in part using a compositional procedure to defeat the dreaded Blank Page problem - which comes for us all in the creative endeavours. We all need ways of doing that. I find it always easier to work on an idea than come up with one. (Obviously that’s why people have notebooks etc.)

So it doesn’t seem to me that many of his works can be said to be serialist. He was following some sort of intuitive aesthetic principle. So this is what I mean by ‘moving on.’ He didn’t abandon the aesthetic of that music, but neither did he carry on with what he was doing in his 20s.

See above. His style and technique developed, it's true, but into what Arnold Whittall describes as 'serially founded motivicism'.

OTOH my favourite Boulez piece is probably the orchestral Notations (aren’t they orchestrations of early total serial works?). This is largely because of the sense of instrumental colour which is present in all his ensemble music. I have to say I perceive this music as being more about gesture and colour (and sometimes rhythm) than about pitch choices. I’m sure I’m being basic.

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I too love the orchestral Notations - sad that he never finished more of them. I have the scores for all of them (the ones he completed, that is).

[James W]

But rather than go back and pick apart the wording of rather long posts, I’ll just ask you if you agree with the statement I made post #111 because that’s what I was arguing by against. I don’t think anything I said is very relevant if you don’t agree with that.


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I don't think serialism is de facto the music of innovation, no.

[Christian Miller]

I don't think serialism is de facto the music of innovation, no.

Ok is serialism de facto *a* music of improvisation? I think that’s what I meant to type.

Obviously you should be a mind reader.

I ask because the thing I felt I was disagreeing with was the assertion that serialism is an innovative technique, whereas I feel it’s well established and somewhat representative of a somewhat classical style in contemporary composition.

I also pointed out that historically there are a lot of people who got alienated not just by the music (which I think is a shame) but by the self righteous attitude of the practitioners. You don’t seem to think this was a thing.

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[James W]

Ok is serialism de facto *a* music of improvisation? I think that’s what I meant to type.

Obviously you should be a mind reader.

I ask because the thing I felt I was disagreeing with was the assertion that serialism is an innovative technique, whereas I feel it’s well established and somewhat representative of a somewhat classical style in contemporary composition.

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Serialism, while ostensibly opposed to improvisation, can be reconciled with it. Stockhausen's Aus den Sieben Tagen for instance is basically improvisatory, yet as the quote in the wiki article says, his approach essentially remains serial -

Aus den sieben Tagen - Wikipedia

It's possible in rebutting your original categorical assertions I may have made at least one of my own. To be more nuanced: serial technique can to this day be used for innovative ends.

[Christian Miller]

I want you two to get along, so I’m going to give you a common enemy.

I hate serialism so much.

Doomed to failure I’m afraid!

You need to take a really controversial position like ‘I don’t like serialism much, but really like Schoenberg’s twelve tone works.’ Then *everyone* will disagree with you.


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[Christian Miller]

Serialism, while ostensibly opposed to improvisation, can be reconciled with it. Stockhausen's Aus den Sieben Tagen for instance is basically improvisatory, yet as the quote in the wiki article says, his approach essentially remains serial -

Aus den sieben Tagen - Wikipedia

It's possible in rebutting your original categorical assertions I may have made at least one of my own. To be more nuanced: serial technique can to this day be used for innovative ends.

I agree.

Is the aesthetic effect of serial music much different to free “atonal” music? If not, then certainly the aesthetic of that music has had a huge influence on European improvisers.


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[kris]

If you owned a record store, how would you arrange the stock?.

"Music of Miles Davis"....such a modest proposal.

[ragman1]

'Serialism, which emerged in the early 20th century, particularly through the work of composers like Arnold Schoenberg, Anton Webern, and Alban Berg, was indeed an innovative approach to composition. It represented a significant break from traditional tonal music, introducing a systematic method of organizing pitch, rhythm, dynamics, and other musical elements. The innovation lay in its ambition to move beyond tonality, allowing for greater freedom in expression and a new way of thinking about musical structure.

In terms of whether serialism is still considered innovative today, opinions vary. In the mid-20th century, it was at the forefront of contemporary classical music, influencing many composers and leading to the development of further techniques, such as total serialism, where other parameters (like dynamics and timbre) were serialized in addition to pitch. However, as musical trends evolved and postmodernism emerged, many composers began to explore other styles and techniques, moving away from strict serial methods.

Today, while serialism may not be at the cutting edge of musical innovation as it once was, it still holds importance in the history of music and influences some contemporary composers. It may be viewed as an innovative tool within a broader palette of compositional techniques rather than a dominant or standalone movement.

Overall, the innovation of serialism lies in its historical context and the way it expanded the possibilities for musical composition. Its influence can still be felt in various avant-garde and contemporary works, but its novelty as a groundbreaking technique has diminished as musical language has diversified.'