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  1. #1

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    I believe Shawn Lane was one of the very few guitar players to share this idea. His idea seemed to be to -play everything as fast as he could, recognizing that it would be sloppy, but then working on cleaning it up and refining his language.
    cheers!

  4. #3

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    I haven't read the article (going to now), but I will say this:

    The "practice slow" thing does indeed work. But I don't think that's the only way. many times I have been "in the moment" (or flow, or whatever you want to call it), and was able to play passages faster and cleaner than usual by simply going for it- just doing it- sort of like getting OUT of your own way and out of your own head, and you just DO it. Now if there was a way to be "in the zone" like that ALL the time.... (the masters of course have figured that out)


    EDIT:
    OK, I just read it. The "Day 3" in the hockey group experiment is exactly what I'm talking about- and brings to mind this Taoist fable:

    When an archer is shooting for fun
    He has all his skill.
    If he shoots for a brass buckle
    He is already nervous.
    If he shoots for a prize of gold
    He goes blind
    Or sees two targets –
    He is out of his mind.

    His skill has not changed,
    But the prize divides him.
    He cares.
    He thinks more of winning
    Than of shooting –
    And the need to win
    Drains him of power.
    -Chuang Tzu


    It also brings to mind a popular phrase (that I hate LOL) "fake it 'til you make it"
    Last edited by ruger9; 12-03-2021 at 12:48 PM.

  5. #4

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    16 children is a small group and the ages are 6-11 which is an extreme difference in basic motor skills. I question the validity of the hockey study.

  6. #5

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    Quote Originally Posted by AllanAllen
    16 children is a small group and the ages are 6-11 which is an extreme difference in basic motor skills. I question the validity of the hockey study.
    Is that why they take the average performance of the group?


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  7. #6

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    Didn’t Tristano teach scales a bit like this?

  8. #7

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    From my limited perspective, I think that sometimes a fast movement is different from the same movement played slowly. I didn‘t learn tremolo by playing pami slow and gradually speeding up, I had to learn it as a unified movement. Same with speed bursts. I can’t even hear the individual notes - I don’t hear that fast. I need it as a group, a Gestalt if you will.


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  9. #8

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    Love to see him take on a fugue from the Bach Lute Suites in his manner.
    Twisted fingers!

  10. #9

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    When they put PhD after their name, watch out.

  11. #10

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    I always thought about the slow practice approach as a way to ensure that you were playing a piece of music correctly in ALL musical respects prior to increasing the tempo up to the desired/required speed, as opposed to being a “speed builder”. At some point you have to practice playing fast if fast is the target.

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    I always thought about the slow practice approach as a way to ensure that you were playing a piece of music correctly in ALL musical respects prior to increasing the tempo up to the desired/required speed, as opposed to being a “speed builder”. At some point you have to practice playing fast if fast is the target.
    +1
    People are joking around here.
    Maybe they don't realize what it is to play fast and accurately at the same time.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    When they put PhD after their name, watch out.
    Watch it. I'm not called Doc Steve for nothing.

  14. #13

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    I've seen advantages in doing both slow and fast practice. But then again, that's my general approach to practicing the guitar, when in a dilemma, try all options!

  15. #14

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    Isn't there a saying about knowing a text backwards?

    What I'm getting at is that you should probably be able to play a piece both (very) fast and (very) slow while preserving as much of the musical intent as possible. My own gripe with playing something much slower than intended is that it's often very hard to do that, and easy to introduce a weight to the music that shouldn't be there. There are also things that don't scale well with playing speed. For instance, a position change that's not a glissando usually has to be done as fast as possible regardless of the speed at which you're playing and right hand movements may start to affect instrument stability above a certain speed, requiring compensation in the left hand for which there is no need at lower speeds.
    So I like to practice both too slow and too fast, at least when I no longer have worry about which notes to play. The idea behind the too fast is to build up a margin for error by making the target tempo easier.
    2 tricks I picked up during orchestra rehearsals (both conductors were also violinists):
    - practice fast runs slow in the left hand but fast in the right hand - by playing each note 3x (or 5, if you must). The uneven number means up and downstrokes are preserved.
    - in trouble passages where you keep messing up, play the trouble-free notes leading up to it at tempo, and then slow down just (long) enough to get the 1st trouble note right. Do the same with subsequent notes but keep trying to move trouble notes to the trouble-free preamble.


    Maybe now I have to go read the article

  16. #15

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    Yea... If your learning how to play slow... practice slow. And if you want to develop speed... you need to practice speed.

    It's the same old BS... never heard anyone complain about being able to play at fast tempos.

    Another aspect of playing jazz.... generally you don't practice like you do when memorizing a piece or performance.

    Typically technique allows you to play something the 1st time at fast tempos without practice.

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Yea... If your learning how to play slow... practice slow. And if you want to develop speed... you need to practice speed.

    It's the same old BS... never heard anyone complain about being able to play at fast tempos.

    Another aspect of playing jazz.... generally you don't practice like you do when memorizing a piece or performance.

    Typically technique allows you to play something the 1st time at fast tempos without practice.
    Reg,
    I don't think it's about jazz here.
    The point is, in my opinion, how to work out a precise, difficult, fast section of a piece .
    The videos show the practice methods / violin, trombone /.
    Interesting exercises - they can be adapted to the guitar.
    At school I had similar exercises but not as developed as in the attached videos.

  18. #17

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    Hey Kris... Yes the vids are not about Jazz... but I assumed that the point of the post is about jazz and playing Jazz, this is a jazz forum.

    Which leads to the same old BS about how to learn how to have technique to be able to play at fast tempos.

    The vids are some of the many approaches that are part developing technique that might help one be able to perform worked out music at fast tempos. The post where the vids were from is about the old BS about what approach works better when trying to develop skills required to be able to play at fast tempos.

    In the end ... we all make choices of how to get where we want to get, in this example, performing at fast tempos.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey Kris... Yes the vids are not about Jazz... but I assumed that the point of the post is about jazz and playing Jazz, this is a jazz forum.
    Mate, have you been on this forum????

  20. #19

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    Play slow to play fast. Use a metronome for accuracy. Simple.
    Play live . . . Marinero

  21. #20

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    Sometimes once you get the passage down and you slow down, then thinking too much can be a problem. So at that point it is about practicing faster. If the passage has to be played really fast it must be reaction, no thinking.

    On another level same issue. I have runner's dystonia and find walking on a treadmill a problem. Going slower does not help. Sometimes I have to practice at faster than the speed I can keep up. Sometimes I actually do better. Going too fast certainly is a problem but at some point you can go too slow. The brain must remember the action as a reaction.

  22. #21

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    I'm thinking that it boils down to your sight reading ability. Maybe you can sight read a passage at 200bpm filled with 16th notes at the drop of a hat, great for you. But did you start out with that ability? I think not likely.

    Practicing slowly allows one to actually read notes and get them under the fingers. Then move up the tempo. I practice many passages at slow tempos, 60bpm for example, to get the fingering solid. I'm a decent sight reader [on sax, certainly not on guitar] but there are times that practicing slowly gets you to where the music needs to be. I'm with Marinero, and others, on this.

  23. #22

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    Strictly speaking technique. I thought the thing the violinist said about picking up your fingers quickly and cleanly was interesting. We tend to concentrate on putting them down. Of course, it's probably more important on violin to do it quickly due to fretless.

    But it got me thinking about practising slow. I had a classical teacher who told be to practise scales very slowly while concentrating on making the change from note to note as clean and fast as possible. Make the note last as long as you can within the beat. In doing that you're practising how to both lift and place the fingers fast. So I think of it as a good way to build basic speed technique. You're practising how to change notes quickly. Then you're just reducing the amount of time between note changes.

    But that isn't really what they're talking about. They're talking about perfecting really difficult passages. I think there's something to it. That trombone guy has stamina.

  24. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Mate, have you been on this forum????
    Let's not pick on the details.

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    Strictly speaking technique. I thought the thing the violinist said about picking up your fingers quickly and cleanly was interesting. We tend to concentrate on putting them down. Of course, it's probably more important on violin to do it quickly due to fretless.

    But it got me thinking about practising slow. I had a classical teacher who told be to practise scales very slowly while concentrating on making the change from note to note as clean and fast as possible. Make the note last as long as you can within the beat. In doing that you're practising how to both lift and place the fingers fast. So I think of it as a good way to build basic speed technique. You're practising how to change notes quickly. Then you're just reducing the amount of time between note changes.

    But that isn't really what they're talking about. They're talking about perfecting really difficult passages. I think there's something to it. That trombone guy has stamina.
    They both obviously are good and what they are saying makes sense. This is not news as it is being mentioned here and elsewhere, but it bears repeating until it sticks and all main implications are understood.
    It is often said that it is easy to be sloppy when trying to play fast. But it is rare to hear that it is also easy to find comfort in playing slow and accurately, feeling good about oneself thinking you are doing it right and not pushing and not really developing.

    It was good for me to have this refresher. In particular I've settled on a rather obvious idea that it doesn't make sense nor is possible to be aware of each note separately in a fast passage (somehow I felt guilty that I'm mindless and ignorant because after a certain threshold it all turns into something motoric)

    The trombone guy has got a fancy metronome too -- I thought I can get no further with mine with all those time signatures, auto speed-up/slow-downs, setting accents or omitting beats. But omitting random beats, now I want to have one like this too.

  26. #25

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    And either way, I think these arguments on how to practice come into play only after you've familiarised yourself with a score and no longer have to worry about which notes to play and for how long; you have the piece or passage in your head and now want to ensure it'll come out as you intend, including the speed.

    I don't think there's any debate on how fast you should play to get there; probably not by playing as fast as you can.

    In my experience, sight reading fast, complex passages at speed is something orchestra players often need, or any other member of a (larger) ensemble who's likely to get unknown notes in front of him with very little rehearsal time so the 1st time should sound pretty good at once. (Note that this can include skills to identify and play only the important notes on the fly, as a start ... open door I presume.)
    I have no idea about jazz but I'm guessing it'll be more like other non-classical styles where you're used to working with lead/chord sheets, mostly familiar tunes plus your own bag of tricks, licks and building blocks.

    Re "bag of tricks" (title of one of Buster Jones's video courses): there's a YT video of him sitting in with Tommy Emmanuel and a few others, playing something he doesn't know yet. BJ was a speed devel (watch his "Backporch Boogie" recordings!) who learned to play alongside a turntable that played everything much too fast. I find the video interesting because it shows how TE guides him along and he gets from catching up playing the right chords to picking along pretty nicely in the course of a single song. (Then again, as a classically trained player I stand in awe of people making music by just *looking* at what others are doing, but I digress.)

    EDIT: I don't see how lifting fingers isn't as important on guitar as on violin, for exactly the same reason: downward passages. Frets do not just make that aspect easier; they can also interfere by causing fretbuzz if you're lifting too slow and they allow things like pull-offs which don't really make sense on violin (though you could argue that a bowed, slurred downward passage is the equivalent).