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  1. #76

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Glad I could start a thread that inspired everybody to practice rather than argue


    Re: picking-- I'm very enamored with the ease and flow of a lot of bluegrass pickers. I love the sound and the lack of tension...
    Well I’m practicing it!

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    I would counter with - false - because the harpischord was succeeded by the piano as the primary keyboard instrument. The piano is a superior instrument, not inferior. That's evolution and innovation.
    This is not a very good argument. It doesn’t matter if you think the piano is better (Bach didn’t) - and there are presumably many professional harpsichordists who would take exception with that notion - the music is still effectively a transcription from the original instruments it was played on.

    The fact that the keyboard is the same for both instruments is neither here nor there because the fretboard of an L5 and a Torres guitar is also the same. Otoh it’s a good analogy for my argument because the mechanism of the piano is fundamentally different to the harpsichord, which is kind of like the difference between using fingers and a pick (actually much less of a difference tonally.)

    Could not the L5 be considered an evolution of the classical guitar? Superior perhaps in terms of projection?

    If you can’t make a hard and fast logical distinction between transcription and something as core to the concert repertoire as the Goldberg Variations played on a piano (is Glenn Gould’s Goldberg Variations inherently inferior to a version on harpsichord?), the argument that transcriptions must necessarily be inferior falls apart. There’s many more shades of grey to it.

    Even more so when you consider the guitar repertoire thrives on transcription much more than piano. Segovias repertoire was somewhat built on it.

    but even within the actual guitar repertoire there’s issues here - Gaspar Sanz played on a modern guitar is not an improvement over the same piece on a baroque guitar, merely different (to be honest I generally prefer baroque guitar music on a baroque guitar with the rhythmic baroque guitar right hand techniques that bring these simple, dance based pieces to life, but that’s an opinion.)

    Being a fundamentalist for ‘what the composer intended’ must lead you logically to historically informed performance (but then you run into all sorts of complicated issues that have kept academics going for decades.)

    Im not saying I think you are somehow wrong for not liking the piece, or the way it’s played, or sounds on an archtop guitar. But I do get annoyed by badly put together arguments. Personal foible.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 09-28-2021 at 05:23 PM.

  4. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    I did not get what you meant.. first it was not quite what I said in concern of originals and translations... I remember my posts of course but this is not quite what I meant there.
    second I did not get get how it is relative to the topic.

    We probably think about very different categories using the same vocabulary...

    I never said here anything of liberties, limitations or truth to originality...

    I spoke about very basic thing.
    Ley me deacon like this.
    The Deposition of Christ by Botticelli...
    One guy knows the plot, knows the context, names, characters, much involved in all that. And also he feels the artistic language in relation to al this, he understands how it all works together and how it interacts.
    Another guy does know know anything of the context sees the men and women, some drama but he is sensitive to the artistic language (composition, drawing, perspective, colours) and though he does not get the background he can grasp a lot through his artistic sensitivity.
    3rd guy knows the story but absolutely insensitive to the artistic language mostly he sees it as an illustration of the plot or idea. He does need art.
    4th does not see anything except some lines and some colours ... he can not see figures of people, he does not recognize deceptive perspective, he even sees only basic contours and basic colours, he thinks it's an abstract painting and offers his fundamental interpretation, he has big audience, people admire his ideas.

    You feel yourself a lonely lunatic with your Christ, Bibles and illusive perspectives and their relationships....

    No-one denies freedom of perception and interpretation but it should have some basic fundamentals of our supposedly common culture. And common sense spreads a bit beyond daily communication routine for me.

    Maybe this works better?
    There are naive responses and sophisticated responses?

    A sophisticated modern response to a historical artwork is likely to be different to the equally sophisticated informed response of the historical scholar. And so on.

  5. #79

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    Bach of course works better arranged on different instruments than composers from later periods, no one tries the Waldstein Sonata on mandolins

    moving on, some killer virtuosity here - would say the two EC pieces are the perhaps the most difficult pieces in the rep - has to be rhythmically near perfect, few breathing spaces and technically monsterous



  6. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by BWV
    Bach of course works better arranged on different instruments than composers from later periods, no one tries the Waldstein Sonata on mandolins

    moving on, some killer virtuosity here - would say the two EC pieces are the perhaps the most difficult pieces in the rep - has to be rhythmically near perfect, few breathing spaces and technically monsterous


    That’s some spicy djent.

    I have to say I prefer it on the classical, but I just don’t like the electric tone that he’s chosen very much. Something a little more warm might offset the musical language a bit better to my ears.

    That reminds me

  7. #81

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    OK, so, I gotta....



  8. #82

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    Well I’m practicing it!
    Me too! Trying, at least.

    In the world of damn amazing picking, I think a lot of bluegrassers swing harder than the "gypsy jazz" kids.

  9. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Me too! Trying, at least.

    In the world of damn amazing picking, I think a lot of bluegrassers swing harder than the "gypsy jazz" kids.
    Ooooh....man... IDK.... "swing" harder? Both styles have amazing pickers, of course....

  10. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    Damn. With a PICK.

    I picked up a guitar to figure out how you'd go about doing that with a pick....Oh, right!

    While I appreciate the dedication that went into it, the original finger-tremolo execution which leaves your thumb free to pick the bass notes sounds a lot fuller. And it's probably a lot easier to learn!

    Anyway, a jazzer here gives you the lowdown, if you're so inclined:


  11. #85

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    By the way, after reading through this thread, I think there should be a forum rule that obliges/obligates you to post your own stuff after dissing another member's playing. That would be fair and gentlemanly.

  12. #86

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    By the way, after reading through this thread, I think there should be a forum rule that obliges/obligates you to post your own stuff after dissing another member's playing. That would be fair and gentlemanly.
    the performer in the OP is not a member.
    criticism isn’t disrespecting
    I can’t speak for anyone else, but I’ve posted my playing.

    You’re not a fan of free speech are you?

    Oh give me a home where the buffalo roam,
    and the deer and the antelope play,
    where never is heard a discouraging word,
    and the skies are not cloudy all day

  13. #87

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    By the way, after reading through this thread, I think there should be a forum rule that obliges/obligates you to post your own stuff after dissing another member's playing. That would be fair and gentlemanly.
    Yeah, it’s an interesting one. Maybe that could lower the amount of vitriol, although the same people that are publicly slamming everything and everybody, also tend to not be very reflective of their own playing, or perhaps are doing it to avoid addressing their own shortcomings. It seems for some, it’s easier to see faults within others. TBH, I wonder how people have the time to be engaged with all this bashing when there are so many things to work on to improve ourselves.

    TBF I suppose it could be seen as good theatre. I’ve largely ignored it as real life is busy enough between job, gigs, family and PD. It’s become more acute recently as I’m in limbo atm waiting for a flight home and between jobs, so I’ve been engaging with the virtual jam. I’ve found it very therapeutic although I’ve had to bite my lip a few times as even with this seemingly simple act of posting an attempt playing on a tune, threads end up with 10% playing and 90% waffle, verbiage or self aggrandizement. LOL.
    cheers!

  14. #88

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar

    You’re not a fan of free speech are you?
    Donplaysguitar,

    Your short dynamic range runs from frustration to ill will to outright malice.

    Way to go.
    Last edited by rabbit; 09-29-2021 at 03:57 AM.

  15. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller

    Could not the L5 be considered an evolution of the classical guitar? Superior perhaps in terms of projection?

    Indeed it is .. and that has since evolved even further!


  16. #90

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    Quote Originally Posted by Peter C
    By the way, after reading through this thread, I think there should be a forum rule that obliges/obligates you to post your own stuff after dissing another member's playing. That would be fair and gentlemanly.
    It would appear that the posts in question have disappeared.

  17. #91

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    No offense Jonah ... I like and respect you a lot .. but I just severly disagree.

    Just am not a fan of cultural gatekeeping ... If a type of art makes people happy then let them enjoy it .. well at least if it is not political in nature

    Nothing good ever came of cultiral gate keeping ... Isnt it stuff like that which gets you sent to Siberia?

    Anyways ... Cheers! Your daily dose of "go practice."
    I did not take it as an offence at all...

    As for cultural gate keeping, I do not think it is relative here. As for Siberia (at least today) it is also wrong)

    You see I try to be reasonable... if I see an aspiring amateur or a student who does its best but maybe misunderstand something I would never 'boo' it...
    And I usually do not show up in the net just to say 'it's bad'

    In most cases I pass by...

    But is it right?

    In 18th century one would have had an egg arrived at his had in that and today we all applaud anyway.
    In 40s in jazz clubs a player that was not considered good could have been litteraly thrown off the stage by someone from the audience.
    It was natural context of musical culture - both audience and players beloged to it.

    Today we live in a bot artificial context.. it is 'culture by appointment' - 'we should behave' whether we understand what is going on or not...


    But why should we tolerate when you see basic illiterancy, ignorance presented as highest competence and authoirity?
    If I clearly understand that this conductor ruined the performance of potentially good musicians I why cannot I 'boo' him? I payed for the tickets, he earns big money. Why cannot I say it's wrong?

    And after all why cannot a person say that he tinks something is wrong at all? Is it a srime? Does he say taht someone should be punished? No.
    Of course negative comment is always negative intereference. It is clear that better to avoid.

    As a musician I partly agree that wherever possible it is better just do it the way you think it proper but it is impossible to be on the level of skills to do everything.
    I can judge movies though I cannot make it. I can say that this singer is not good though I cannot sing professionally.

    it is obvious that it is not always out of context.

    Negative criticism is also needed... nothing wrong in saying something does not seem correct, even some irony or sarcasm can be allowed in my opinion. Because reasonable educated people are ready to accept and answer it properly. They understand that it is not a personal attack, they do not look at credentials but at what a person says.

    we live in the world where positive criticism is also absolutely devalued.
    Everything is equally great. We live in the world of many nice options but with no really powerful cultural mainstream.

    You mentioned that people take pleasure in things and then it is ok... sure I am not against it.

    Brodsky said: tolerance and intolerance are two hands of the same body.
    I respect and tolerate other people's views bit I have my values and I have the right to protect them.

  18. #92

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    I loathe Recuerdos de la Alhambra with every fibre of my being.

  19. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Why cannot I say it's wrong?
    I'm not trying to forbid you from saying it's wrong ... I'm mostly just tired of the nature of critisism around these parts, which is rarely nuance.


    Like the OP there. The performer has worked on a certain technique that he applies to a well known classical piece. In doing so he clearly illustrastates the strenght of it, but actually also the short comings as you have a benchmark.


    It's a very inspiring performance. Sure you can decide that you find the shortcomings to be too large for it to fully work in that context, but it's a great illustration of what is and is not possible with that technique.


    But few here discuss the specifics of what works and doesn't work (some do tho) instead is it a long stream of "NOT AS IT WAS INTENDED"


    If you say, I don't like this cause it doesn't capture the spirit of the time due to this and that etc .. no problem (Which is what you do).

    But most here say "THIS SUCKS AND I WILL NOT TOLERATE IT"

    That is my beef and I get carried away


    (and Siberia was mostly for the overt drama. .. But actually while it may not happen these days, but it was a possibility once , wasn't it? .. Siberia by performance of non-accepted musical material ... We don't want to end there again)

  20. #94

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Indeed it is .. and that has since evolved even further!

    Superior in every way. I shall smash my Gibson into tiny flinders.

  21. #95

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    I loathe Recuerdos de la Alhambra with every fibre of my being.
    I like it despite myself.

  22. #96

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    Quote Originally Posted by rabbit
    Donplaysguitar,

    Your short dynamic range runs from frustration to ill will to outright malice.

    Way to go.
    Nah, this weak "ethic" has been proposed before, by a very sensitive individual. It's not a practical adult response.


    The thing is, in the USA - we reserve the right to publicly criticize;
    1. any political or government speech/philosophy that is expressed,
    2. any religious point of view,
    3. any book, article, tweet, post, speech that we may read or hear,
    4. any movie or TV show that we may watch,
    5. any play that we may attend,
    6. any sporting event that we may witness,
    7. any musical performance that we may attend or hear.


    We see how many, many countries on earth squelch this speech, yet we remain undettered. When people start to tell us that we can't speak freely, we remember our founding and how it was earned.

    Here's the real ethic, the only natural ethic, the only ethic that works:
    If any person/persons perform or express themselves in the public square - especially for pay or promotion - then they need to be prepared to discover that they and/or their presentations are not necessarily loved and accepted by all. If that notion is too traumatic for them to accept, then they need to stay home - for their own mental and physical well being.

  23. #97

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Is he a classical player?

    Anyway, not too much hand tension here:

    Wow, just WOW! I don't don't know this player or this piece, but that was just outstanding and fun. Great way to start the day!

  24. #98

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim777
    Wow, just WOW! I don't don't know this player or this piece, but that was just outstanding and fun. Great way to start the day!
    Agreed. I starte smiling widely about 10 seconds in, and it grew even wider the whole way through.

  25. #99

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    Quote Originally Posted by jim777
    Wow, just WOW! I don't don't know this player or this piece, but that was just outstanding and fun. Great way to start the day!
    First of all, that is the one and only maestro David Russell. I've seen him 5 times. He's not getting any younger - see him if you can!

    Second, he is playing a piece by Sergio Assad of the Assad brothers. Still active duo. I've seen them multiple times as well. They both play of course, and Sergio is the stronger composeer while Odair is probably the stronger player by a little bit. I'll add some links shortly.

    David Russell:

    Home

    This one is a must. 2005 Grammy award finest classical performance (any instrument - something like that):
    Sorry! Something went wrong!

    Sorry! Something went wrong!



    Assad brothers:

    events | Assad Brothers

    Last edited by Donplaysguitar; 09-29-2021 at 09:38 AM.

  26. #100

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    That's one opinion.

    The thing is, it isn't HIS piece. It was composed on and for the classical guitar by Francisco Tarrega over a century ago, whether one likes or appreciates that or not. It is to be played a certain way, and as the composer intended.

    So, the guy in the OP was having fun, challenging himself, being fresh with old material? etc. He probably counted on many uneducated contemporary fans being ignorant of history. This effect occurs in all of the major arts today. The standards are not contemporary and are not watered down. We are not required to go along with it. We are not required to "round up" for him.

    So, it's a free country. If one likes electric Christmas carols or electric Bach that's OK, as long as they understand they are appreciating a substitute - NOT the real thing.

    If one wants to create something original, that's much better. This is like a cover band playing a classic tune - comparisons to the original are INEVITABLE. Can't take the heat? Make your OWN history. Write and play something original.
    Ridiculous. But your opinion, which is yours. Not based fact, just a knee-jerk reaction against progress and artistic freedom.