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  1. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55
    Imo Django was already playing bebop in the 30s. His playing isn't quite as linear as pure bebop players like Parker and Powell, but rhythmically I think it's pretty much bebop.
    ”Pretty much”, huh?

    Django was a miracle level talent, just incredible really.

    But Bebop is American.

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  3. #27

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    I'm aware of when and where the movement took place, I just think he was technically playing very closely to bebop in the 30s.

  4. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, C,
    This is all I could find.
    Play live . . . Marinero


    About - fabiomittino.com

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    it’s clearly an acoustic archtop, similar to one of the old 16” Loar era Gibson L5’s. It’s not plugged in and there’s no (visible pickup) or cutaway. And I want it.

    EDIT: Haha just looked at the vid again. It is an L5. Duh.
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 09-28-2021 at 06:15 AM.

  5. #29

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    I don’t regard Django as playing bop in the 30s, because his rhythmic feel is clearly swing era, but harmonically he was doing all of the stuff that people usually associate with Parker etc.

    Django started playing his own take on bop after the war. Played some pretty hip stuff, sounded great on electric…

    Many first gen bop players had a quite similar right hand technique to Django though. Django was light years ahead any American guitarist technically though except maybe Les Paul who played very much a Django style early on.

    Personally I’m a bigger Charlie fan. Did he play bebop? Not quite… definitely elements there, mostly the feel and rhythmic flow of the lines. I agree with Benny Goodman who said he was his own thing (I don’t think Benny liked bop though) vocab wise it’s not far from what Teddy Bunn was doing on acoustic… don’t know if there was a direct influence, as I understand it Charlie was more directly influenced by horn players like Prez? Anyway similar stuff; blues and changes often with m6 subs….

    (No one ever talks about Teddy Bunn and they bloody well should.)

    I think had he lived into the Parker era he would have been in the mix with his own distinct vibe, a bit like Monk (who is also on that Minton’s session IIRC.)
    Last edited by Christian Miller; 09-26-2021 at 03:38 AM.

  6. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    Bebop was played on sax and piano back in the 40s, where it actually works brilliantly (who knew?) ... What is the point of playing it on the inferior guitar?
    honest to god and without irony I often find myself asking that question lol

  7. #31

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    That's why I went back to keys. I was like I've had it with this lol.

  8. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55
    That's why I went back to keys. I was like I've had it with this lol.
    it became a lot easier when I stopped trying to play stuff in position and made sure to learn everything by ear… the fingers find a way… but it’s striking to me how much easier it is to play bop lines on the piano even without really being able to play piano at all lol.

  9. #33

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    On another guitar:


  10. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Marinero
    Hi, C,
    This is all I could find.
    Play live . . . Marinero


    About - fabiomittino.com

    https://fabiomittino.com › about










    LOL! Are you deaf and blind? Stupid, or shameless?

    Sent from my Redmi Note 9 Pro using Tapatalk

  11. #35

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    Quote Originally Posted by Clint 55
    Imo Django was already playing bebop in the 30s. His playing isn't quite as linear as pure bebop players like Parker and Powell, but rhythmically I think it's pretty much bebop.
    I always felt Django and Monk were kindred spirits.

    Re: this clip...yeah, I do think it sounds better played with fingers on a nylon string guitar...but dudes...PRACTICE.

  12. #36

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    ^ Oh yeah? Good thought. To the rest: I wasn't saying that Django technically played bebop exactly how it was when it was fully formed in the 40s. I said that he played very close to it. His style was rooted in swing, but he was almost there already in the 30s. The only thing he didn't do was phrase linearly. He more riffed it. People consider Monk bebop but Monk never played an 8th note based linear solo in his entire career!

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Miller
    it became a lot easier when I stopped trying to play stuff in position and made sure to learn everything by ear… the fingers find a way… but it’s striking to me how much easier it is to play bop lines on the piano even without really being able to play piano at all lol.
    Yeah, I like being able to roll a shape or run a scale easily at 16th notes or faster if I want some fast rhythm. I would never be able to do that on guitar. Phrasing 8th note bop lines is more ergonomic too, cuz you have 5 fingers to plan how to execute the line instead of 3 or 4 and you only have to drop them on the keys instead of syncing left and right hands.
    Last edited by Clint 55; 09-26-2021 at 01:48 PM.

  13. #37

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    ...I do think it sounds better played with fingers on a nylon string guitar...but dudes...PRACTICE.
    Right back on topic! I don't like this music at all, but I wouldn't mind being able to do it. I'd put it do a different use. Not sure what exactly. As our Mr Miller likes to say, learning to play is not a linear thing. One technique bleeds over to another. It's kinda what trying to play Donna Lee on guitar is all about.

    Think of Julian Lage. His time spent in bluegrass wasn't wasted. It's percolated down, and in some way is in everything he does.

    MrB: Seems you're a little obsessed with cross-picking these days? I think I saw some other post of yours about it. Ms Tuttle? She's a sweetheart.

  14. #38

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    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    The electric guitar is the reason you’re here. It’s the reason we’re here.

    You’re not fooling anyone.

    And perhaps you're only fooling yourself. The guitar has been popular for 1000 years. It's been electrified for fewer than 100 years.

    Much of the "classical" repertoire is playable with the plectrum, or hybrid picking, as well as finger-style. Johnny Smith's renditions are very musical and respectful of the tradition, and certainly learning pieces such as the ones he recorded can only improve one's technique and awareness of dynamics and tone color, something electric guitarists often let the amp and pedals take care of. Those of us developing chord-melody styles would get a good grounding in voice-leading and chord construction working on classical guitar repertoire from the late 16th-century (Milan, Narvaez) to the 20th century (Villa-Lobos, Torroba) and the years in between. Leavitt's Classical Studies would also expand harmonic knowledge and break one out of both chord and single-note ruts. As far as Recuerdos is concerned, I often played it in jazz concerts to great effect, it seems that its popularity is a result of its musicality, not its technical demands.

  15. #39

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    Quote Originally Posted by ronjazz
    And perhaps you're only fooling yourself. The guitar has been popular for 1000 years. It's been electrified for fewer than 100 years.

    Much of the "classical" repertoire is playable with the plectrum, or hybrid picking, as well as finger-style. Johnny Smith's renditions are very musical and respectful of the tradition, and certainly learning pieces such as the ones he recorded can only improve one's technique and awareness of dynamics and tone color, something electric guitarists often let the amp and pedals take care of. Those of us developing chord-melody styles would get a good grounding in voice-leading and chord construction working on classical guitar repertoire from the late 16th-century (Milan, Narvaez) to the 20th century (Villa-Lobos, Torroba) and the years in between. Leavitt's Classical Studies would also expand harmonic knowledge and break one out of both chord and single-note ruts. As far as Recuerdos is concerned, I often played it in jazz concerts to great effect, it seems that its popularity is a result of its musicality, not its technical demands.
    No Ron, I'm on the money. Having been here a while, you should easily deduce that the overwhelming majority of people here couldn't give two hoots about the classical guitar, it's history or repertoire. You and I may find that disappointing, but it is what it is.

    Classical repertoire? People can mess around with hybrid picking or a pick but it's sub-optimal and it sounds sub-optimal. We both know that too.

    As for me? I like Tarrega just fine - but Recuerdos? I find it tolerable but laborius for concertizing. (see Marinero above). Ana Vidovic played it a bit slower and infused it with more Romantic expression, which helped.

    I saw Pepe Romero play it. It was nice and the audience enjoyed it, but hey, it was Pepe.

  16. #40

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    Quote Originally Posted by mr. beaumont
    I always felt Django and Monk were kindred spirits.

    Re: this clip...yeah, I do think it sounds better played with fingers on a nylon string guitar...but dudes...PRACTICE.
    I will only tolerate this piece played on gut strings.

  17. #41

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    Beauty is in the ear of the beholder.

  18. #42

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    Everyone's a critic on this site. I now remember why I stopped coming here.

  19. #43

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    Quote Originally Posted by TheGrandWazoo
    Everyone's a critic on this site. I now remember why I stopped coming here.
    Hey!

  20. #44

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    Quote Originally Posted by A. Kingstone
    Hey!
    But he is right ... you know ... I mean plenty of great guys here, but the "I'm the greatest expert musical expert and think everything is shit" crowd tends to drown them out

  21. #45

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    Damn. With a PICK.
    Sort of mandolin/balalaika kind of picking.

    And somehow it really fits the piece.... after all classical guitar tremolo technique is an imitation of mandolin.

  22. #46

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    Julian's technique in opening of The Gardens is very similar


  23. #47

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Julian's technique in opening of The Gardens is very similar

    I'm finding it really hard to discern, but slowing it down I think that the OP guy is playing the piece as written (albeit transposed) which is to say, bass note, three treble notes tremolo, bass note, three notes etc); so then it becomes (mostly) a problem in precision string skipping. The pick attack itself helps hide the fact that the upper string tremolo is not actually continuous.

    I find it easiest to do this (slower haha) with a downstroke on the bass, then alternate picking for the other notes so the first treble note starting on an upstroke, then down up, repeat. I actually think it may be easier to achieve an even tremolo this way, if you can solve the bass note challenge.

    As others have said, it's very difficult to get an even tremolo with the fingers.

    Lage on the other hand is swiping across both strings with the downstroke so he has the treble going on constantly. In this case you can't do a big skip easily, but you can manage small skips with left hand muting.

    At least I think that's what's going on.

    I might work on this. I'm keen to get new textures I can do with a flat pick.

  24. #48

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    Lage on the other hand is swiping across both strings with the downstroke so he has the treble going on constantly. In this case you can't do a big skip, but you can skip one string with muting.

    At least I think that's what's going on.
    I think you are right.

    I was rather speaking about the conception of musical effect achived with cross-picking... but I agree that in details it is different... I woudl say Julian sounds more natural, lively and a bit more raw to me... subtle but not overpolished.


    As others have said, it's very difficult to get an even tremolo with the fingers.
    I played tremolo pieces as a kid and Alhambra in my youth as a part of my classical guitar training.
    I should say I was not ever stable with it and tried to avoid any music with it wherever was possible.
    Also I did not like the music that used it mostly.

    My teacher used to say that some people just have it and some not... he did not insist on it and asked to focus on other things taht I could do better than otheres (as he described it)...

  25. #49

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    Quote Originally Posted by Lobomov
    But he is right ... you know ... I mean plenty of great guys here, but the "I'm the greatest expert musical expert and think everything is shit" crowd tends to drown them out
    It does seem to be the case, especially in the last year or so, that this forum has a growing number of grumps. No matter what is posted, no matter the talent level, or the gear quality, or whatever, there's always several people coming in to poop on the parade. What drives such people? Does always having something negative to say make them feel superior, or something?

    "They are playing it wrong"
    "That kind of music shouldn't be played on that kind of instrument"
    "Fender shouldn't make vintage-circuit amps without tubes"
    and on...and on...and on....

    The guy in the OP is very talented, and he's making good music. If you don't LIKE it or APPRECIATE it, fine. But there's nothing "wrong" about it. You must be one of the people who criticized EVH for tapping, and then posted the video of the guy who was doing it in 1965

  26. #50

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    Quote Originally Posted by ruger9
    . You must be one of the people who criticized EVH for tapping, and then posted the video of the guy who was doing it RIGHT in 1965

    Fixed your post!