The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
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  1. #1

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    In watching videos of Wes I noticed that he plays with the fingers of his right hand extended down. That is, not curled under so that his fingernails contact the pickguard or top, but splayed out.

    When I tried it today, I noticed that strumming a chord produced a more mellow sound than the curled finger method. (EDIT) The difference was particularly noticeable on octaves.

    In trying to understand it, it occurred to me that it changes the angle at which the thumb contacts the strings. Also, the part of the thumb that contacts the string is closer to the center of the pad.

    I've never read anything about this.

    Thoughts?
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 08-11-2021 at 10:42 PM.

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    In watching videos of Wes...he plays with the fingers of his right hand extended down...not curled under...but splayed out...Thoughts?
    As a youthful bass guitarist in the sixties, I played with the thumb only (until I realised the need for pizzicato). I always extended the rest of the hand as you say, otherwise the thumb would cramp up. The entire hand feels way more solid that way rather than something planned.

    Not saying anything new here, but anything one does affects their sound. I often think the biggest part of the WM sound was his self-assuredness in every note he played. He wasn't trying to sound like anyone else. He just played it as he felt. Playing jazz guitar with a thumb alone was unheard of previous to him, but he didn't care.

    In about 16 points, he addressed the guitar in a way that the interface between guitar and body was fairly consistent and unique to him. Keeping in mind that he usually played seated, with the weight of the guitar completely on his right leg. He used a headstock strap for a large guitar with heavy gauge strings (higher tension). He kept the lower bout away from his body and the upper bout on his upper chest. He tilted the guitar back so that the fretboard faced him more while the neck is pointing up at about a 30 degree angle with the floor. His LH fingers were large for the fretboard and his thumb was curved upwards naturally to the way in which he developed his signature sound. The metacarpal joint of his thumb is very unique. Holding a plectrum may have been awkward for him. It has been said that his thumb was double jointed. And yes, his RH fingers are splayed out across the pickguard. One can see that his elbow rested well on the plate and his palm may have rested behind the bridge. Most importantly, notice that his fingers are over the edge of the pickguard and he is practically grabbing the entire pickguard so that they assist his thumb!

    As anyone who has played a Fender Precision bass will attest, there was a finger rest in that very location that (no one used) so that you could thumb the strings with a secure RH.



    Last edited by StringNavigator; 08-11-2021 at 10:43 PM.

  4. #3

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    I don't see the need for using the center of the thumb pad in the way Wes played. It seem natural enough to me to use the edge of the thumb. I just tried it, and using the edge of the thumb is easier than the center. Not that I can do it fast enough to play an up tune in either position, but the edge seems faster to me. It depends on the rotation of the hand. This is, of course, from only a very short experiment so I can't say anything definitive. Videos I've seen seem to show that he was using the side of his thumb, not the center, though. Still, hard for me to be sure of much.

  5. #4

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    Extending the fingers also stiffens the hand, stabilizing the whole mass. This allows for more even timing when using the thumb to activate the strings.

  6. #5

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    When I want to use my right thumb, I get better control and a better "Wes" tone when I imitate Wes' right-hand technique, rather than curl up the ringers and extend the thumb.

    It has now, after many years, become natural to simply employ a "Wes technique" when thumb picking.
    Last edited by Greentone; 08-11-2021 at 04:47 PM.

  7. #6

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    I had to dig to find a drawing that may illustrate my point. Note the two thumb joints - -the IP joint and then the MPC joint. Note how WM's IP joint is almost, if not always, straight or unbent when he's playing. If he has to compensate for keeping it that way, he'll bend his thumb at the MPC joint.
    I thought I stumbled upon this when i was trying to find patterns to guitarists who used picks - -some times on upstrokes they'd bend at the IP joint and then at other times they'd bend at the MPC joint while, obviously, still holding the pick. I couldn't find a pattern, it just seemed random.
    So once I asked a pro I knew reasonably well why / how he did that - and was it conscious, and he just said ' I have no idea what I do'. Not sure whether that was a stock answer or not .

    I just always found it interesting.....Anyone correct any part of this.....
    Attached Images Attached Images Wes Montgomery's right hand-thmb-jpg Wes Montgomery's right hand-thmb-1024x1024-jpg 
    Last edited by Dennis D; 08-11-2021 at 07:57 PM.

  8. #7

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    Moderators,pls delete attachment in previous post, or entire post, if need be.

    I didn't mean to upload an attachment that size and can't edit / delete it.

    Thx

  9. #8

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis D
    Moderators,pls delete attachment in previous post, or entire post, if need be.

    I didn't mean to upload an attachment that size and can't edit / delete it.

    Thx
    There are no moderators here now (AFAIK). I don't think the size of this picture is a problem.

  10. #9

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    Quote Originally Posted by MarkRhodes
    There are no moderators here now (AFAIK). I don't think the size of this picture is a problem.
    Thanks Mark...I tried to edit the photo out and find smaller one but couldn't....

    Thx again.

    Dennis

  11. #10

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    The flexibility of the IP joint varies widely between individuals. For some, it's impossible to bend the thumb back much, if any, beyond straight. Some can bend it 90 degrees or more back. I can bend mine in the vicinity of 80 degrees or so comfortably, but I can't bend it inward more than maybe 30 degrees, if that. I hold the pick with my thumb bent back about as far as is comfortable, and use movement of the IP joint as part of the stroke, often most of the stroke. That's just how I learned without having a teacher. If I use my thumb, it tends to stay pretty much straight. I have no idea why, that's just what feels comfortable. I hasten to say that my technique is probably far from ideal, but I'm too old to try changing now.

  12. #11
    Lhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBGZgyl72_g

    Looks like Wes' IP joint bent backwards quite a bit, allowing him to strike a little more centered on the pad.

    I've read that he had a "corn" on his thumb. This is, apparently, not the same thing as a callus. Of course, whoever said it probably wasn't a dermatologist.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Lhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBGZgyl72_g

    Looks like Wes' IP joint bent backwards quite a bit, allowing him to strike a little more centered on the pad.

    I've read that he had a "corn" on his thumb. This is, apparently, not the same thing as a callus. Of course, whoever said it probably wasn't a dermatologist.
    ...My guitar teacher back in the day mentioned a ' callus' and said it allowed WM to use it for upstrokes too, but not sure about that either......

  14. #13

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    Some folk really invest in that 'upstroke' rumor. I was too young to have heard Wes in person, but I've had long conversations with 2 of my mentors, Carmen Caramanica and John Abercrombie, that saw him up close and they both said mostly downstrokes. Sure, you can find evidence of an occasional upstroke flourish, but putting upstrokes front and center of his technique is like saying the main component to Jim Hall's sound is a Whammy pedal.... What gets overlooked is Wes' genius level left hand fretboard organization, everything is fingered so perfectly as to not need anything bur downstrokes from the right hand


    PK

  15. #14

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    To hear Wes' thumb upstroke listen to "Boss City." Beginning at the 1:49 point, Wes gets going and starts using the upstroke on his sixteenth notes--from about 1:49-2:10. From about 2:30 onward he slips in the upstroke for emphasis as he continues to solo throughout the song.