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  1. #51

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    I love this topic because:
    - I think there are some really interesting differences, but...
    - Since improvising on the guitar has so many different variables and elements, it's hard to really say which of those elements are affected by this specific hand position difference and which are not. Correlation doesn't equal causation, but it doesn't negate causation either.
    - I do think the more that the guitar-teaching community explores this issue, the more we'll get closer to some set of agreeable 'truths', especially with some more hard data. I think those conclusions could be very useful, because guitar teachers like myself sure spend a lot of time working on hand position, sitting position, left hand technique, etc. (for whatever it's worth, most of my students grab the guitar in that rock kind of way, and then they usually have a very hard time playing just about anything, so I wind up getting them playing with a mostly classical type of left hand.)
    - It's another one of these things in music where we can mostly only take guesses and theorize as to the cause/effect of different things. I used to be dogmatic about these things, but more recently I've accepted that whatever seems like it makes the most sense, might not actually make the most sense, because there can always be variables I was previously unaware of.

    One thing that didn't click until mulling the subject over and poking around in this thread, I guess in classical guitar you don't do a ton of slides, not nearly as much as we might get in something like a Wes solo. Being able to slide that often definitely changes the demands on the left hand significantly. And sliding is also of course a great way to easily get into a new position. So, stylistically appropriate articulation + ease of navigating a position change. That's a "seems like it's easier with the rock stance" in my mind. Maybe I'll make a spreadsheet...
    I don’t think I gave it that much thought. IMO (for me) three fingers sounds better, and everyone I’ve asked agrees, so I’ll probably bite the bullet practice and that way.

    OTOH the more I study pedagogy the more relaxed I get about things being a bit contradictory. That’s part of the fun. There’s already too much small p positivism in music education. Art is about subjectivity.

    That said there are anatomical reasons why I think this style is actually healthier for the hand than classical. Classical makes as healthy as possible the challenge of playing polyphonic music, but the relative athleticism of this repertoire and technique means you can get yourself into trouble if you don’t quite know what you are doing/have a shit teacher. As I have in the past. A little knowledge is a dangerous thing...

    So anyway, it’s annoying because for me four fingers is a lot more familiar and flexible, but I think you got to follow the sound. And of course no reason I have to always use that technique all the time.

    So I’ll report back when I learn Donna Lee that way haha (we’ll see about that, eh?)

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

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    Quote Originally Posted by JakeAcci
    I am a disgruntled composer of 1980's film scores trapped in the body of a guitarist.
    Snap!

    Mediant relationships are big and clever

  4. #53

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    Quote Originally Posted by jazznylon
    Is it even possible to do the thumb over position on a classical width neck with small hands? I do practice limiting my fingers (even to just one!) but all of that was done classical style.. I might be willing to try though
    Tricky, but it’s mostly about the angle between the side of your hand and the guitar neck anyway.... most classical style players are parallel, or use a slight angle. For ‘three fingered’ you might want to increase to around 30-45 degrees and use the pads of your fingers...

  5. #54

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Tricky, but it’s mostly about the angle between the side of your hand and the guitar neck anyway.... most classical style players are parallel, or use a slight angle. For ‘three fingered’ you might want to increase to around 30-45 degrees and use the pads of your fingers...
    Interesting. I will give it a go then!

  6. #55

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I think it boils down to one thing - are you a frustrated horn player or a wannabe pianist?
    Good one!

    I listen WAY more to horn players, particularly sax and trumpet, than I do to piano players. But I do play sax and clarinet, so i'm not a frustrated horn player, just a mediocre one.

  7. #56

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    (First post, but have been lurking for a couple of months.)


    I’ve played bass (on and off) for 50 years, but started guitar only recently. I began on doublebass and took up electric shortly after. I abandoned DB after a few years but continued with bass guitar. I learned Simandl fingering—four fingers cover three notes with the third and fourth finger together—thumb behind the neck. Over the years I developed kind of a hybrid approach where sometimes I used the Simandl fingering while other times I would use one finger per fret.
    I am finding with guitar that my third finger is the weakest and most uncoordinated, but I’m working on it.

  8. #57

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS
    'If the three-finger method is superior, what is the the use, then, of learning scales and patterns with all four fingers, as I was taught to do"
    LOL! It might be surprising to find out how little time some major players have spent on scales...

  9. #58

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    Charlie Christian started on trumpet.
    Cornell Dupree (not jazz, yet great) started on saxophone.

    This video is excellent (for our purposes) because it is shot from below, providing a great angle on the angle of his left hand while playing.

    Cornell did not use effects and played with a clean tone. You can see / hear that he is often 'singing what he plays'. Very vocal-like phrasing.



    From Montreaux in 1971 with King Curtis

  10. #59

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    Classical left hand with fingers 90 degrees to fretboard is one technique, not some pinnacle of correct playing, in fact it doesn’t work when you play Hendrix etc. Because in those styles, you strum all or most strings while muting with the left fingers. This gives the characteristic percussive sound. It’s only possible with fingers slightly flattened as needed. High precision playing, not at all lazy.

    As for injuries, it’s about the entire geometry. Especially the wrist which should be as straight as possible. Which is a function of your shoulder and elbow, which in turn is dependent on your posture and guitar placement.

  11. #60

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    Quote Originally Posted by emkc


    I’ve played bass (on and off) for 50 years, but started guitar only recently. I began on doublebass and took up electric shortly after. I abandoned DB after a few years but continued with bass guitar. I learned Simandl fingering—four fingers cover three notes with the third and fourth finger together—thumb behind the neck. Over the years I developed kind of a hybrid approach where sometimes I used the Simandl fingering while other times I would use one finger per fret.
    I am finding with guitar that my third finger is the weakest and most uncoordinated, but I’m working on it.
    Like you I spent time playing string bass, and will use the Simandl fingerings on electric bass in the lower frets at times.

    it doesn't seem to have affected my guitar fingerings, though.

  12. #61

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    Marriage & Independence - Tennis Anyone?
    Unfortunately, the ring finger is only good for the ring... the bands that bind...
    I guess this is a great reason/excuse to play scales to develop/practice finger independence.
    The internet tells me that squeezing a tennis ball in your idle hours may help...

    Internet Anatomy 101 - It's A Nervous Condition
    Unlike the thumb, index and pinky, the ring and middle fingers have no independent flexors or extensors...!
    They can move only with the muscles common to all fingers.
    In the forearm, the nerves are separated (Ulnar & Radial).
    The radial nerve connects with the thumb, index and one side of the badfinger.
    The ulnar nerve connects with the pinky, ring and the other side of badfinger.
    The branching of the two nerves causes the dependence of the fingers on each other for movement.
    As the nerves for the ring and pinky are intertwined, it's hard to move each one separately.
    The same goes for ring and badfinger, but the middle finger can move more easily as it’s getting two sets of signals.

    Simandl vs Sor
    On double bass I use Simandl(124) in the lower positions, reserving 1234 for higher positions where comfortable. The ring finger mirrors the pinky as if tied together by an elastic (1,2, 3-4). This allows balance in the hand and the strength of pinky + ring is considerable. For me, Simandl meets the demands of bowing much better than 1234 could on the double bass. Pizzicato is something else. After a while, I came to enjoy the Simandl fingering very much, even on bass guitar in the low positions. Where you make the switch from 124 to 1234 depends on the size of your hand. It becomes second nature.

    Viva Roma!
    There's an Italian School of fingering using fingers 134. Again, the ring finger is "tied", this time to the middle finger (1, 2-3, 4). Both systems are equally good. Both systems allow accurate intonation due to the ease of equalising the spaces between the digits used.

    Fast Guys Do It 123! - Tilt The Neck Twice - Where Does It End?
    One can't help but notice all the speedo's working with fingers 123 and only using the pinky now and then. Of course there's the "tricks" of string bending, hammer-ons, pull-offs and slides that more than make up for four fingers. I made the mistake long ago of taking the classical technique too seriously. I learned that positioning the neck until right for you (between vertical and horizontal AND with the fingerboard tilted up a bit rather than perpendicular to the floor) is more important than anything -and not to be strict with technique. Tilting the fingerboard really helps with some difficult chords. The natural anatomy of the hand limits speed somewhat, and 123 fingering avoids that. But we do pretty well in spite of it. Virtuosity is overrated...
    Last edited by StringNavigator; 05-07-2021 at 01:02 PM.

  13. #62

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    I watched the video, Christian and gave it a go for a night. What I found in my brief explorations are that somethings are easier with three fingers and some things harder.

    In particular, I found position playing and running scales in position more difficult with three fingers, except for two notes per string stuff.

    However, I found moving around the neck much easier which goes to Lage's point that it is hard to shift when using the pinky. When I finger something three frets away my hand naturally tends to move towards that finger, so it makes for a sort of pivoting motion that makes moving up the neck easy, and vice-versa when going down from the the third finger to the 1st.

  14. #63

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    I watched the video, Christian and gave it a go for a night. What I found in my brief explorations are that somethings are easier with three fingers and some things harder.

    In particular, I found position playing and running scales in position more difficult with three fingers, except for two notes per string stuff.

    However, I found moving around the neck much easier which goes to Lage's point that it is hard to shift when using the pinky. When I finger something three frets away my hand naturally tends to move towards that finger, so it makes for a sort of pivoting motion that makes moving up the neck easy, and vice-versa when going down from the the third finger to the 1st.
    Scales are definitely more involved. But then I wonder if that’s just unfamiliarity with the little mini shifts you need to do, and not necessarily a problem per se. Hard to tell.

    Anyway; position playing. So, I always feel that the goals of position playing really have nothing to do with musicality. Is it a thing worth having in the long run? By which I mean, do we want to position players when improvising, sight reading and playing compositions? And if not, how important is it really for learning to play?

    (these are the types of questions I find myself wondering when yet another Grade 1 classical student is flummoxed by the idea of second position requiring different fingers for the notes they’ve been playing for a year already....)

    Quite a lot of the stuff I actually play when doing jazz, if not most of it, really resists traditional position playing; the Barry Harris stuff for example, lines I learn from various musicians or music I learn (often written by non guitarists). Usually the fingerings that work best combine positions or use many mini shifts. I don’t find bop particularly unguitaristic in fact, but I do not find it sits well ‘in position.’

    in fact my fingering system such as it is is based on guidelines like, always keep a chromatic neighbour on the same string as the target tone, try to not use the same finger twice when moving string, and so on, rather than any positions as such. I’d much rather shift than break one of these rules.

    I learned a lot by copying Mike Morenos fingerings and this is the type of thing he does, as well as Lage Lund.

    Furthermore the idea of planting ones first finger in a position can have a number of negative effects on left hand technique.
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-09-2021 at 11:45 AM.

  15. #64

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Scales are definitely more involved. But then I wonder if that’s just unfamiliarity with the little mini shifts you need to do, and not necessarily a problem per se. Hard to tell.

    Anyway; position playing. So, I always feel that the goals of position playing really have nothing to do with musicality. Is it a thing worth having in the long run? By which I mean, do we want to position players when improvising, sight reading and playing compositions? And if not, how important is it really for learning to play?

    (these are the types of questions I find myself wondering when yet another Grade 1 classical student is flummoxed by the idea of second position requiring different fingers for the notes they’ve been playing for a year already....)

    Quite a lot of the stuff I actually play when doing jazz, if not most of it, really resists traditional position playing; the Barry Harris stuff for example, lines I learn from various musicians or music I learn (often written by non guitarists). Usually the fingerings that work best combine positions or use many mini shifts. I don’t find bop particularly unguitaristic in fact, but I do not find it sits well ‘in position.’

    in fact my fingering system such as it is is based on guidelines like, always keep a chromatic neighbour on the same string as the target tone, try to not use the same finger twice when moving string, and so on, rather than any positions as such. I’d much rather shift than break one of these rules.

    I learned a lot by copying Mike Morenos fingerings and this is the type of thing he does, as well as Lage Lund.

    Furthermore the idea of planting ones first finger in a position can have a number of negative effects on left hand technique.
    My tldr, is that the three fingered approach does affect how and what one plays.

    There great jazz players doing both so at the end of the day I think it's mostly about preferences and what kind of things you want to play.

  16. #65

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    My tldr, is that the three fingered approach does affect how and what one plays.

    There great jazz players doing both so at the end of the day I think it's mostly about preferences and what kind of things you want to play.
    The question I have is, is position playing the ideal choice for any music at all? Would you ever want your fingerings for a piece of music composed or improvised to be dictated by the position?

    (I would think the answer a fairly self evident no, but maybe others differ?)

  17. #66

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    ...Would you ever want your fingerings for a piece of music composed or improvised to be dictated by the position?
    I also don't want my fingerings to be dictated by some silly rule that says I shouldn't use my pinky :-)

    I'm not sure what the schooling is on position playing. I had to figure that stuff out for myself. For me it was about learning how to navigate the entire fretboard.

    I still don't get the either or: 3 finger vs 4 vs shifts vs positions. I don't see how any one of these things disqualifies the others.

    To me it's like the 'down-strokes are best' thing. Why limit yourself? My upstrokes are just as good as my downs. You just have to learn how to do it. I also need slides, hammer-ons, pull-offs and bends. (some don't though)

    If the goal is to sound like the bop guitarists of yore, then mostly 3 fingers and lots of down strokes will probably get you there quicker.

    If the goal is to be able to play everything including the harder stuff by Parker, Henderson, or Eddie Harris, you're probably going to want some more tools.

    My goal is freedom for the heart and mind to roam the musical universe unconfined.

  18. #67

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft

    I still don't get the either or: 3 finger vs 4 vs shifts vs positions. I don't see how any one of these things disqualifies the others.
    Exactly! the more tools we have to use musically, the better.

  19. #68

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    I also don't want my fingerings to be dictated by some silly rule that says I shouldn't use my pinky :-)

    I'm not sure what the schooling is on position playing. I had to figure that stuff out for myself. For me it was about learning how to navigate the entire fretboard.

    I still don't get the either or: 3 finger vs 4 vs shifts vs positions. I don't see how any one of these things disqualifies the others.

    To me it's like the 'down-strokes are best' thing. Why limit yourself? My upstrokes are just as good as my downs. You just have to learn how to do it. I also need slides, hammer-ons, pull-offs and bends. (some don't though)

    If the goal is to sound like the bop guitarists of yore, then mostly 3 fingers and lots of down strokes will probably get you there quicker.

    If the goal is to be able to play everything including the harder stuff by Parker, Henderson, or Eddie Harris, you're probably going to want some more tools.

    My goal is freedom for the heart and mind to roam the musical universe unconfined.
    You haven’t watched the video, I think?

    I mean I could address specific points of disagreement but most of things I want to say are covered in the vid. BTW some of the biggest names in contemporary jazz guitar are primarily ‘three fingered’ or thumb over pronated players.

    Bottom line is I’m suggesting maybe some people try something a bit different. I don’t honestly think everyone should play with three fingers FFS. There’s a fair amount of diversity in left hand approaches for my favourite players.

    Some people might like it tho.

    And I think some people think it’s ‘wrong’ to play like this.

    Anyway in a wider sense a lot of great practice can be done by adopting apparently arbitrary constraints and working within them. That’s one of the surest routes in my experience to more freedom and not playing the same stuff...
    Last edited by christianm77; 05-09-2021 at 03:42 PM.

  20. #69

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    Quote Originally Posted by DavidKOS
    Exactly! the more tools we have to use musically, the better.
    Well that’s my point, right?

    One of the great many things that drives me completely mental about JGO is the level to the which people see any invitation to try something new as an invitation to debate at great and tedious length why they shouldn’t try it.

    The worst thing is I’ve been that person.

  21. #70

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    Sorry Christian. I really didn't mean to be arguing with you. I did watch the vid a few days ago, and I totally agree with your "why not give it a go" invitation. I have in the past, and I learned things that added to my palette.

    I did quote you, but I guess I got caught up in the 'great and tedious debate' having just re-read much of it on a Sunday afternoon. What I was really trying to get at is that there is no one best way. You know... the other side of the whole tedious thing. You clearly were not advocating for one or the other in your video.

    I agree with the value of learning from constraints. If you're a photographer you'll learn a lot if you decide to work with just black and white for a while.

  22. #71

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    My goal is freedom for the heart and mind to roam the musical universe unconfined.
    I've heard other musicians express this view.
    I wish them, and you, all the best in pursuit of this goal.
    But my perspective is fundamentally different: every guitarist I love---whose style thrills me---is somehow "confined." That is, they have definite habits and preferences. They are not equally likely to play a line this way as that way (and another dozen ways besides). They do what they like do. They put themselves---their style (which is by definition 'confined') their stamp---on what they do. Barney Kessel said of Herb Ellis that he always signed his work. You knew it was Herb. There are more adept guitarists who have no identifiable style. They are adept every which-a-way but as Gertrude Stein said of Oakland, "There's no THERE there." Wes and Django and Charlie Christian had more "there" than any other 3 jazz guitarists. They were all confined. Studio players may wish to be unconfined---chameleons, able to blend in anywhere and never stand out---but having a style is by definition the opposite of that. It is being distinctive. It is being much more likely to do some things than others, and much more likely to play one certain way than others.

    Bird always played like Bird, Prez like Prez, Johnny Hodges like Johnny Hodges. They were all confined, and it helped them stand out.


    I don't say this to argue with you. I do wish you all the best. I'm sure you wish me the best as well, along a different path.

  23. #72

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    I hear you Mark. I'm a long way from my goal. I may have developed some habits though!

    Maybe the diff is that I've always been more attracted to horn players. More interested in playing like Bird than Herb for EG.

    All the best to you and others of like mind!

  24. #73

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    The question I have is, is position playing the ideal choice for any music at all? Would you ever want your fingerings for a piece of music composed or improvised to be dictated by the position?

    (I would think the answer a fairly self evident no, but maybe others differ?)
    I just watched some Pass videos and he strikes me as a four finger guy. From what I saw a lot of his runs are in a position.

    He can clearly get around the neck, though, but I would say that a lot of his faster stuff is in a single position.

    Whereas a guy like Benson has runs that span the entire neck.

  25. #74

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    I just watched some Pass videos and he strikes me as a four finger guy. From what I saw a lot of his runs are in a position.

    He can clearly get around the neck, though, but I would say that a lot of his faster stuff is in a single position.

    Whereas a guy like Benson has runs that span the entire neck.
    Cool.

    The question wasn't quite that though.

    To put it another way, does position playing serve a purpose other than teaching?

  26. #75

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    Quote Originally Posted by ccroft
    Sorry Christian. I really didn't mean to be arguing with you. I did watch the vid a few days ago, and I totally agree with your "why not give it a go" invitation. I have in the past, and I learned things that added to my palette.

    I did quote you, but I guess I got caught up in the 'great and tedious debate' having just re-read much of it on a Sunday afternoon. What I was really trying to get at is that there is no one best way. You know... the other side of the whole tedious thing. You clearly were not advocating for one or the other in your video.

    I agree with the value of learning from constraints. If you're a photographer you'll learn a lot if you decide to work with just black and white for a while.
    Thanks for watching. There is no one best way; although, people do seem to get wedded to this or that system and mistake the transmission of that system for 'pedagogy.'

    Most often, people pass on what they were taught. It gets really crazy sometimes when people get quite emotional when challenged on something that mildly contradicts something they were told 20 years ago... I think often teachers just pass on what they were taught without necessarily understanding underlying principles versus malleable details.... sometime contradictions are hint at a deeper syntheses. Sometimes they are just contradictions because - guess what - music isn't a science.

    maybe it doesn't matter, if you have a system and it works (and don't blame the student if it doesn't of course), but it does make for some frankly silly debates.

    And as anyone tell you jazz is all about heutagogy anyway (although maybe not using that word exactly haha....)

  27. #76

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    Over time, I have discovered that certain things I have practiced for years to achieve my usual level of mediocrity and inconsistency became a little more consistent or solid when I swapped out my 4th finger for a 3-fingered approach. It's almost always when I'm trying to adapt someone else's music to my fingers (Bird, Jimmy Raney, Joe Pass...) I have since realized when trying something new, I will "give it a go" with both 3 and 4 finger technique. Whatever works works.

    I used to be a classical left hand position snob, but I grew up. :-) It's kind of amazing what I've had to un-learn over the years in an attempt to improve.

  28. #77

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Thanks for watching. There is no one best way; although, people do seem to get wedded to this or that system and mistake the transmission of that system for 'pedagogy'.


    And as anyone tell you jazz is all about heutagogy anyway (although maybe not using that word exactly haha....)

    What, please, is "heutagogy"? OED coming up Thanks.

  29. #78

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Cool.

    The question wasn't quite that though.

    To put it another way, does position playing serve a purpose other than teaching?
    I guess the question is how would you teach someone without using positions? What would you start with? Chord shapes? Licks? Shapes that span multiple positions?

  30. #79

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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74
    What, please, is "heutagogy"? OED coming up Thanks.
    it's basically my sig

  31. #80

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    I guess the question is how would you teach someone without using positions? What would you start with? Chord shapes? Licks? Shapes that span multiple positions?
    Good question :-) I don’t really know. I think encouraging students to try different ways of fingering things is probably a good idea once the basics have been mastered.

    I think early on you kind of have to get fingers trained.

  32. #81

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    Is it even possible to do the thumb over position on a classical width neck with small hands? I do practice limiting my fingers (even to just one!) but all of that was done classical style.. I might be willing to try though
    Actually thumbover is common technique on Russian 7-string which has very similar neck thickness as classical guitar...

  33. #82

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    if I want to sound rootsy , bluesy ,
    swingin , groovey , cool etc
    ie most Jazz and Bop (i do)

    then I have to use the three finger thumb
    over thing ....
    ——————
    if I wanted to sound classical with all
    the multipart counterpoint etc etc
    (not so much)
    then I would use classical left hand
    Nice poem...But I would have changed 'sound' to 'look'

  34. #83

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    Quote Originally Posted by charlieparker
    I guess the question is how would you teach someone without using positions? What would you start with? Chord shapes? Licks? Shapes that span multiple positions?
    The science of the unitar!

    (See: Mick Goodrick's section on single-string playing in "The Advancing Guitarist"

  35. #84

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonah
    Actually thumbover is common technique on Russian 7-string which has very similar neck thickness as classical guitar...
    Thumb-over techniques are also used in balalaika, baglama saz, dombra/danbura, etc. folk instruments - and by a lot of older country git-tar players.

  36. #85

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    Yea... I dig different fingerings, they can help create... Feels, styles grooves etc.

    personally I've always just looked at fingerings as a process to learning the fret board.... which becomes a simple 12 fret repeating pattern.... and you can use whatever fingerings you want.

    I mean licks... most are short, but I use two and four bar Licks all the time. (with variations to fit context )

    The biggest problem seems to be... Most just don't ever finish the process. Guitarist seem to always be visually glued to the fretboard. And struggle to play what they want... or think they want because in the time that they need to realize what they want to play, or think they want to play... it's too late. Because they can't figure out how to finger etc...

    Most end up being... memorize and perform type of ... rehearse and down that rabbit hole.

    But yea I love 3 finger bounce around groove feels... i typically have fun when playing in that style.

  37. #86

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  38. #87

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    Throwing this in here, I think there's an anatomical basis for some of e.g. this This Is Why It'''s So Much Harder To Move Only Your Ring Finger On Its Own Than Other Fingers The third and fourth fingers share a connection which makes it harder to move them independently human biology - Bending your little finger without bending ring finger - Biology Stack Exchange (a common complaint among pianists).

    While it's possible to overcome this with diligent practice etc. it does seem like a lot of energy to expend when (at least on guitar) there are many things that are playable with three fingers on the left hand.

    I got into this idea after taking a lesson from Richie Hart who is the man for all things Wes Montgomery. Working on Wes transcriptions and keeping this in mind made things click for me. I've got a transcription of D Natural Blues here
    where I try to apply this idea.

    Another thing to consider is players who use either 3 or 4, but rarely both together. Pat Martino and George Benson spring to mind for this. Again, I think this goes back to anatomy and what feels comfortable to play. In the gypsy jazz world Jimmy Rosenberg is also interesting in that he prefers 1 and 3 to create Django type lines. This solo is a great example (starts at 1:40)
    (Jimmy in his prime - untouchable...)

  39. #88

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    Yea xariley... Great points, over a decade ago, I posted or started a thread about fingerings, one of my decisions about why I decided on 7 position fingering movable position playing was based on your basic points with physical realities of hands, fingers etc... and I went on with all the other BS to show my reasons for making that choice.... which I made over 50 years ago.... I could already burn back then using mainly 3 finger technique.

    Again... like I posted above, the movable position fingerings are just a mechanical tool to learn the fretboard. No one just used one set of fingerings....

    ....nice post of D natural, sounded great and looked like your having fun, cool. Not a knock..... but try and play without backing track and see if you can lock in the feel. Feeling the subdivisions will help created a more bluesy feel. (the triplet subdivision). Not typical jazz swing 8ths

  40. #89

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    Quote Originally Posted by xavriley
    Throwing this in here, I think there's an anatomical basis for some of e.g. this This Is Why It'''s So Much Harder To Move Only Your Ring Finger On Its Own Than Other Fingers The third and fourth fingers share a connection which makes it harder to move them independently human biology - Bending your little finger without bending ring finger - Biology Stack Exchange (a common complaint among pianists).

    While it's possible to overcome this with diligent practice etc. it does seem like a lot of energy to expend when (at least on guitar) there are many things that are playable with three fingers on the left hand.

    I got into this idea after taking a lesson from Richie Hart who is the man for all things Wes Montgomery. Working on Wes transcriptions and keeping this in mind made things click for me. I've got a transcription of D Natural Blues here
    where I try to apply this idea.

    Another thing to consider is players who use either 3 or 4, but rarely both together. Pat Martino and George Benson spring to mind for this. Again, I think this goes back to anatomy and what feels comfortable to play. In the gypsy jazz world Jimmy Rosenberg is also interesting in that he prefers 1 and 3 to create Django type lines. This solo is a great example (starts at 1:40)
    (Jimmy in his prime - untouchable...)