The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 4 of 8 FirstFirst ... 23456 ... LastLast
Posts 76 to 100 of 192
  1. #76

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I confess that I still don't understand the OP.

    If you already know where all the notes on the fretboard are, instantaneously, would you still need to think about any of these fingering patterns?

    And, if you don't know the notes, wouldn't it be easier to spend the time to learn them and thereby reduce the pressure to learn multiple patterns of dots on grids?

    Or, if the issue is having stuff under your fingers for high tempos, why not go right to vocabulary by lifting licks?
    I wonder

    Well I think Shadow od the Sun put it well, so I'm going by what he said? I'm assuming he understood the OP lol.

    If I see an E melodic minor scale written down in a piece of music I'm going to read that scale from the specified lowest note to the highest without reading each note, for instance. If I see a Cmaj7 chord in drop 2, I will read and play the whole voicings as an object. If I see a common bebop lick, the same. Knowing the rule of the octave ought to make you better at sight reading baroque music and so on.

    Reading (like transcription) becomes much harder when the music is unfamiliar. I can read Parker better than Schoenberg. It's the same 12 notes of course; but Parker uses many of the combinations I know well.

    So what I'm thinking is link the improvisational aspect and reading aspect. Add transcription/ear learning into this trinity, and I think you are really onto something.

    Sight reading, as my tutor pointed out, is a form of improvisation. Good sight readers anticipate the music.

    Of course if you improvise with the 7 positions system then that's all fine, isn't it? (I know I don't.) I'm suggesting that a unity of approach in all the playing you do is actually really important.

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    I confess that I still don't understand the OP.

    If you already know where all the notes on the fretboard are, instantaneously, would you still need to think about any of these fingering patterns?

    And, if you don't know the notes, wouldn't it be easier to spend the time to learn them and thereby reduce the pressure to learn multiple patterns of dots on grids?

    Or, if the issue is having stuff under your fingers for high tempos, why not go right to vocabulary by lifting licks?
    The OP 's trying to learn the fretboard, and you seem to already know it. So, we're talking about two different stages . Reg's assertion, from having taught others the same, has always been that the fastest route to YOUR level of fretboard knowledge is to commit to an organized approach... and that it would get a newer player there faster than "just plugging away" etc.

    Unconscious mastery doesn't necessarily inform what beginning processes should be. The way I experience reading music is really pretty different from my six and seven-year-old students, and why shouldn't it be? It's completely different. From what you've described, you seem to be better at having figured this out than most. Congrats.

    But continually asking what's in it for you is somewhat analogous to a professional driver asking why he should memorize the sequence of steps that Driver's Ed students learn. Much of the discussion in this thread seems to be like hammering the point home that "Real drivers never think out sequential steps while driving. You don't think. You just drive". That's absolutely true but also completely beside the point.

    The problem with that argument is that it's conflating learner's processes with unconscious mastery of experts . Abstracted, sequential steps are necessary in most complex disciplines in the beginning. Teaching a beginning driver can be very frightening, frustratingand very difficult. The truth is that most of the difficulty stems from the fact that experienced drivers mostly CAN'T remember what they actually do, because it's done without conscious thought. Acquiring skill at anything is mostly about moving processes from the domainof the left hemisphere conscious (slower) to the right hemisphere (intuitive).

    To be fair, the OP is about how to get started.

  4. #78

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77

    Of course if you improvise with the 7 positions system then that's all fine, isn't it? (I know I don't.) I'm suggesting that a unity of approach in all the playing you do is actually really important.
    At the risk of beating the horse beyond reason, what I'm trying to do is think of a melody and play it. I don't want the geometry of the guitar to be a factor. I certainly don't want it to be audible. So, if I think of a melodic idea I want to play it as I thought it. I have no interest in somehow having to think about a fingering. Of course, that's a goal not a reality, but, to my ear, the worst part of any solo I play is when my fingers are playing a pattern without my brain governing it.

  5. #79
    rpjazzguitar: when I say they're repeating, I mean that after one octave or twelve frets, they repeat. Sorry if that threw you for a loop.

    Danplaysguitar: I call it reg's system coz reg is how I first encountered it here on these forums, and he's the one who managed to somewhat explain the utility of the system to me (admittedly his posts are all stream of consciousness so it takes a bit of deciphering for me). The hows and whys of actually playing the stretches in actual play is kind of besides the point - the idea is to use the 7 reference points with stretches as a way to make an association between the location of the notes on the 6th string to the other notes around it. As long as I'm figuring from C on the 6th string, it doesn't matter if I play E flat with a first finger stretch or not in actual playing, I just know where the C is and I know, as such, where the E is. It's a way to visually and physically understand where the notes are on the fretboard based on a one dimensional pattern like the piano keyboard has.
    Last edited by Shadow of the Sun; 03-06-2021 at 09:55 PM.

  6. #80

    User Info Menu

    Does it really matter who discovered how to finger a major scale first?

    Reg came up with and presented a fingerboard organizational system based on seven, 2nd-finger-oriented positions. Referring to this as Reg's system or Reg's finger patterns is perfectly legitimate. Everybody involved knows what we're discussing.

    .

  7. #81

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Shadow of the Sun
    rpjazzguitar: when I say they're repeating, I mean that after one octave or twelve frets, they repeat. Sorry if that threw you for a loop.

    Danplaysguitar: I call it reg's system coz reg is how I first encountered it here on these forums, and he's the one who managed to somewhat explain the utility of the system to me (admittedly his posts are all stream of consciousness so it takes a bit of deciphering for me). The hows and whys of actually playing the stretches in actual play is kind of besides the point - the idea is to use the 7 reference points with stretches as a way to make an association between the location of the notes on the 6th string to the other notes around it. As long as I'm figuring from C on the 6th string, it doesn't matter if I play E flat with a first finger stretch or not in actual playing, I just know where the C is and I know, as such, where the E is. It's a way to visually and physically understand where the notes are on the fretboard based on a one dimensional pattern like the piano keyboard has.
    Well to be accurate everything repeats after 12 frets on the guitar. Nothing unique there.

    Stretching is hard on the hands, so if one wishes to be good to their hands for the long haul using a scale and arpeggio set of fingerings that depend entirely upon it is hardly beside the point.

    Stretching can hamper control and also affect tone depending on how your finger tip gets placed on the string. That matters to some players more than others though.

    Scale fingerings that traverse all six strings may be useful for the practice room but aren’t used much in actual music. One could say that the best reason to play a 6 string scale in one position is that it reveals multiple one octave fingerings. And to repeat myself, other than chord playing the sixth string doesn’t get much business in the solo world, relative to the others. Basing ones core scale and arpeggio conceptualization on the sixth string doesn’t make a great deal of sense when we consider that we aren’t going to use that 6th string very much.

    most guitar soloing is pitched a little higher, and higher notes on the sixth string don’t have an attractive timbre relative to the same note on the fifth string.

    we need to learn and use all strings and positions of course, but should also be mindful of what gets used more than what.

    But don’t take my word for it. Look at 100 solo jazz guitar transcriptions and watch the master players live. How much luvin’ does that sixth string get for single lines?

  8. #82

    User Info Menu

    I'll permit myself a ridiculous nitpick. The notes repeat after 12 frets, but the fingering at the 12th fret is not the same as at the nut. There is a practical difference in several ways. One is that open strings sound different and ring differently. Second is that you have to fret those notes at the 12th fret. Third is that when you play around the 12th fret you may have to reach to the 11th fret (or lower) which cannot happen at the nut.

    In practice, the 12 fret is the most confusing because you learned, first, at the nut, and it's almost the same thing, except it's different.

    Another small nitpick. If you can learn the notes on the low E string, why not learn the notes on the other 5 strings? I think a good player (this is a risky thing to say) ought to know every note on the fretboard as an individual with no ambiguity or confusion. If a student doesn't, I'd say go two for one -- learn the fretboard as you learn to read. Then you'll know both.

  9. #83

    User Info Menu

    rpjazzguitar,

    I agree that reading is an excellent way to learn the fingerboard assuming that over time you play in all the different regions or can extrapolate what is happening elsewhere based on what happens in the places you do
    spend your time playing.


    If you already know where all the notes on the fretboard are, instantaneously, would you still need to think about any of these fingering patterns?
    Maybe, if you lack an organized approach to fingering that allows you to play with clarity and tempo.

  10. #84

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by bako
    rpjazzguitar,
    Maybe, if you lack an organized approach to fingering that allows you to play with clarity and tempo.
    I guess I had an organized approach to fingering when I was taught to run scales and arps, although I don't use it.

    At this point, I don't even know what it means to have an "organized approach to fingering". When you read, it's either simple and obvious or there's a problem to solve.

    The solution to a problem is often not a standard fingering, because it matters what came before and what's coming next. You get good at reading a little ahead and figuring out where you're going to play the notes. If the tempo is slow enough and the passage easy enough it does not require much thought. If the passage is fast and difficult, well, there's a point where you aren't going to be able to play it and you'll have to set aside some time to figure out a fingering (sometimes considering quite a number) which works.

  11. #85
    DaShigsta Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    Last point -- I'm what some might think of as "old". I don't have a great many years left to play -- so I'm trying to consolidate things
    into a style rather than explore brand new vistas. The idea is to make the stuff I can hear and execute sound better
    and not to be distracted from that goal.
    Good point !

    Same here... What's brand new anyways ?

  12. #86

    User Info Menu

    For me it’s which finger goes on which note when you play a particular scale. Same as piano except the keyboard is very simple compared to the fretboard. I’m a beginner so I just start with the C and G harmonic and natural minors and try to practice them over the first 4 bars of Whisper Not. I can even practice without a guitar by imagining the fretboard and singing the notes. Now I’m training scales,auditory skills and knowing locations of notes. Before I overdo it I only practice around the 10th fret skipping the bass string.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  13. #87

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by rpjazzguitar
    At the risk of beating the horse beyond reason, what I'm trying to do is think of a melody and play it. I don't want the geometry of the guitar to be a factor. I certainly don't want it to be audible. So, if I think of a melodic idea I want to play it as I thought it. I have no interest in somehow having to think about a fingering. Of course, that's a goal not a reality, but, to my ear, the worst part of any solo I play is when my fingers are playing a pattern without my brain governing it.
    There's a difference between practicing and playing.

  14. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Well to be accurate everything repeats after 12 frets on the guitar. Nothing unique there.

    Stretching is hard on the hands, so if one wishes to be good to their hands for the long haul using a scale and arpeggio set of fingerings that depend entirely upon it is hardly beside the point.

    Stretching can hamper control and also affect tone depending on how your finger tip gets placed on the string. That matters to some players more than others though.

    Scale fingerings that traverse all six strings may be useful for the practice room but aren’t used much in actual music. One could say that the best reason to play a 6 string scale in one position is that it reveals multiple one octave fingerings. And to repeat myself, other than chord playing the sixth string doesn’t get much business in the solo world, relative to the others. Basing ones core scale and arpeggio conceptualization on the sixth string doesn’t make a great deal of sense when we consider that we aren’t going to use that 6th string very much.

    most guitar soloing is pitched a little higher, and higher notes on the sixth string don’t have an attractive timbre relative to the same note on the fifth string.

    we need to learn and use all strings and positions of course, but should also be mindful of what gets used more than what.

    But don’t take my word for it. Look at 100 solo jazz guitar transcriptions and watch the master players live. How much luvin’ does that sixth string get for single lines?
    His teaching is mostly around the first four strings. This argument about focusing on six string feels made up. It's silly to talk about all of this as if it's hypothetical or something. ...Like he didn't write out a bunch of stuff and play hours of examples, anonymously, for no apparent gain, and pretending that he didn't focus most of his licks etc around the first four strings rather than the six string and hypothetically talk about how the opposite is more contrived and difficult. He actually has stated that the playing is mostly around the first four strings - the higher octave in a given position.

    Again, this is a real player. Do whatever you like... whatever prevents your fingers fumbling on the fretboard. These aren't HYPOTHETICAL musings on this part, and it's ridiculous to insinuate that they are - as if he hasn't actually played all of this stuff as well. This rant about "sixth string playing" could have been written by someone who has never watched a single one of his actual playing videos.

  15. #89

    I feel like this conversation has somewhat devolved into talking about these concepts as if they're purely theoretical and separate from the music , and additionally separate from the musician himself, who claims that they have been a profound help to him and others he has taught. It's had a profound impact on my view of the instrument and playing, along with many others on the forum over the years.

    It's perfectly valid to use thousands of words to talk about topics philosophically, going into a high level of abstraction and analysis, but a certain point, isn't it ridiculous to continue to highly abstract and philosophize over the fact that a given thing is too PHILOSOPHICAL and ABSTRACT? I don't know that you can do both. To those who would say it's about playing and about the music and not words, sure. To be fair, he can do both, along with Barry Harris and countless other teachers who actually play.

  16. #90

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    His teaching is mostly around the first four strings. This argument about focusing on six string feels made up. It's silly to talk about all of this as if it's hypothetical or something. ...Like he didn't write out a bunch of stuff and play hours of examples, anonymously, for no apparent gain, and pretending that he didn't focus most of his licks etc around the first four strings rather than the six string and hypothetically talk about how the opposite is more contrived and difficult. He actually has stated that the playing is mostly around the first four strings - the higher octave in a given position.

    Again, this is a real player. Do whatever you like... whatever prevents your fingers fumbling on the fretboard. These aren't HYPOTHETICAL musings on this part, and it's ridiculous to insinuate that they are - as if he hasn't actually played all of this stuff as well. This rant about "sixth string playing" could have been written by someone who has never watched a single one of his actual playing videos.
    Well you seem to be talking about Reg but I'm not at all. This is a thread about fingerings, not a person. I know very little about his teaching but if he concentrates on strings 1-4 for soloing then that's a good thing IMO. Very practical. I would say the same to you, buddy. You can do whatever you want. You can follow whomever you desire. Oh, and while not a pro I'm a "real player" too. Been playing since I was 14.

    And the sixth string? I seem to recall someone else (not Reg) mentioning visualization from the sixth string as being some big advantage, and that's why I expanded on that focus area. It's probably unavoidable on the guitar, but I'll just repeat my point that playing scales across all six strings from low to high then back down again in a single position occurs very rarely in music. So, should we practice that way? Sure, a little.

    But practicing things that one wants to occur during improvisation is direct and to the point, not indirect. In other words, practing the jazz language. It's a lot of work. Best get to work on that.

  17. #91

    User Info Menu

    Ok... who cares, I've always said....there are choices as to working out fingerings, but you need to finish whatever system you choose. The goal is to get to the point that fingerings don't get in the way of your playing.

    I've spent most of my life sight reading, playing gigs without rehearsals etc... I'm just an average pro, there are many better players. But I finished my approach 50 years ago. I took lessons from Bill Leavitt, while at Berklee...and he and Berklee expanded my ears, my understanding of music. My fingerings didn't get in the way...

    I rarely stay in one position, or just use my fingerings. The fingerings are just a reference 12 fret map that easily transposes anyway I choose. The system easily allows me to take musical concepts, expand and develop musical ideas in real time.

    It works really well for expanding Tonal concepts with Modal relationships. Ex. Taking a melody or lick and transpose up or down a diatonic degree, create a harmony part. Transpose into different key or mode. Key of C to Emaj or Emin. or E dorian.

    Disclaimer... I can actually play by ear and stare at my fretboard for effect.

    Here's an example... I was just a sub at the time, eventually became member.

  18. #92

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Ok... who cares, I've always said....there are choices as to working out fingerings, but you need to finish whatever system you choose. The goal is to get to the point that fingerings don't get in the way of your playing.

    I've spent most of my life sight reading, playing gigs without rehearsals etc... I'm just an average pro, there are many better players. But I finished my approach 50 years ago. I took lessons from Bill Leavitt, while at Berklee...and he and Berklee expanded my ears, my understanding of music. My fingerings didn't get in the way...

    I rarely stay in one position, or just use my fingerings. The fingerings are just a reference 12 fret map that easily transposes anyway I choose. The system easily allows me to take musical concepts, expand and develop musical ideas in real time.

    It works really well for expanding Tonal concepts with Modal relationships. Ex. Taking a melody or lick and transpose up or down a diatonic degree, create a harmony part. Transpose into different key or mode. Key of C to Emaj or Emin. or E dorian.

    Disclaimer... I can actually play by ear and stare at my fretboard for effect.

    Here's an example... I was just a sub at the time, eventually became member.
    Nice playing Reg, wish we could hear you better in that recording.

    Could you expand a little on what you mean when you say "you need to finish whatever system you choose"?

    Thanks.

  19. #93

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by matt.guitarteacher
    His teaching is mostly around the first four strings. This argument about focusing on six string feels made up. It's silly to talk about all of this as if it's hypothetical or something. ...Like he didn't write out a bunch of stuff and play hours of examples, anonymously, for no apparent gain, and pretending that he didn't focus most of his licks etc around the first four strings rather than the six string and hypothetically talk about how the opposite is more contrived and difficult. He actually has stated that the playing is mostly around the first four strings - the higher octave in a given position.

    Again, this is a real player. Do whatever you like... whatever prevents your fingers fumbling on the fretboard. These aren't HYPOTHETICAL musings on this part, and it's ridiculous to insinuate that they are - as if he hasn't actually played all of this stuff as well. This rant about "sixth string playing" could have been written by someone who has never watched a single one of his actual playing videos.
    I just want to make something clear in case it's not. Reg is the real thing. I've had the opportunity to hear him live (at the venue where that video was recorded - with some of the same players). And, Reg was kind enough to have me sit in on another gig. His videos are both numerous and valuable. It is kind of him to offer his wisdom on here.

    That doesn't mean I understand his approach to fingering. I don't think I do. I've posted about it because his playing proves that his approach has value -- so I'd like to understand it better.

  20. #94

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Nice playing Reg, wish we could hear you better in that recording.

    Could you expand a little on what you mean when you say "you need to finish whatever system you choose"?

    Thanks.
    Sure, keeping simple.

    The organization of how one developed fingerings on the fretboard needs to expand past just the fingerings of the scale or position.

    1) there are the physical details, the starting point of understanding what a position is.
    The root or tonal reference. (that's why I use 7 positions)
    The scale constructed from that root,
    The Chord and extensions
    The Arpeggios of all those chords possible etc...

    2) Next are the Relationships from that Position with a Tonal Reference.

    Usually starts with Diatonic Relationship, Functionally.
    ex. Bbmaj... and labeled as a Tonic, Imaj7.
    I see, hear, play, compose arrange etc... using Functional Relationships.

    Starting with basic Vanilla Maj/Min functional Relationships, Tonic, Subdominant and Dominant

    So That Bbma also implies the related Tonic chords, scales, arpeggios etc... III- or Dmin. and VI- Gmin.

    Next the sub dominant related Relationships and the Dominant Relationships.

    That's somewhat the starting point of finishing the understanding of what a position is.

    The more you know about Music.... the more Relationships you can develop from each position.

    Ex. A simple common jazz example is the use of Chord Patterns, most seem to get and use Dominant or versions of Imaj - V7 Chord Patterns, Bbmaj7 and F7.

    Depending on how well one understands Functional Harmonic Movement etc... there many more possible versions of Dominant Chord Patterns, The cool application of Chord Patterns is that they can imply and function as a single Tonal Target. The better you develop usage of harmonic Rhythm, (or use of harmonic movement within a space), the more options you'll have of expanding Chord Patterns.

    I don't know you or your musical knowledge etc.... but there are still many more vanilla options that can be implied from that single position, and then open the Subdominant door, then Modal.... with use of the other scales, pentatonics, Blue Notes.

    The point is that each position can become a Reference, a Tonal Target.... from which there are standard musical Relationship with possible Developments of those Relationships yada yada.

    So instead of simply playing in a position, a scale or chord.... you have expanded possibilities of what to play or hear.

    It's like having mechanical or memorized Licks that transpose to 7 different tonal references. helps one develop Harmonic possibilities from Chord Tones, Extensions and the rest of the notes.

    It's helps one embellish with organization both Macro and Micro. It doesn't mean you need to play everything, but it will help what you play physically be able to lock in both melodically and harmonically. And then when you get you rhythmical skills together... well, your ears will have a better chance of realizing what you hear.

    Sorry, I know I said Simple version... but it usually takes a year or two to get these technical skills together.

  21. #95

    User Info Menu

    Yes thanks. And I assume we're talking about melody lines in the context of all these chordal/harmonic discussions, not chords themselves.

    I am cognizant enough to believe that the following should be mastered for any system of fingerings - at minimum:

    • 7 two-octave modes from the sixth string (simultaneously realizing that leaves out 7 alternate fingerings with CAGED and even more fingerings than that if one is a Leavitt 12-fingerings guy),
    • All one-octave modes within each fingering pattern,
    • Two octave scales/modes from the 6th and 5th strings, the latter involving a shift,
    • 3-octave scales/modes, although not as many as Berklee requires (utility vs. hours in the day is the concern),
    • 1, 2, and 3 octave arpeggios in the same fashion as the above (with similar sentiments toward 3 octave arpeggios - and - triad arpeggios). All inversions.
    • Other options - 2 octaves plus a fifth. Probably a more practical range than three octaves
    • All 12 keys in one positioan/area
    • All fingerings for one key (12 frets)
    • All one-octave modes from one note (same string, same fret)
    • All one-octave arpeggios from one note (same)
    • Jazz language exercises per chord quality - in all scale fingering patterns:
      • For one example - (1) half step below chord tone, (2) scale tone from above, (3) both. See Jospeh Viola as a reference but apply to the guitar).
      • 2,3,4 note approaches, enclosures, upper and lower neighbors yada yada.

    • Jazz language patterns and chord outlines per progression: in all practical scale fingering patterns:
      • Examples; II-V-Is, Blues, Rhythm Changes, Cycles, Turnarounds, Coltrane changes



    • Constantly reading a variety of material in each position/fingering pattern/area of the fretboard.



    So, that covers a lot, some would say too much. But it doesn't cover everything (nothing really does). What do we think is missing?

    Thanks again.

  22. #96

    User Info Menu

    No not at all, those are the 1st step. The basics technical aspects of guitar technique. Then you learn about how to organize within relationships and how those relationships organize developments. Which organizes the use of all the technical BS while performing and being able to interact with other players versions of.

    The list you put out looks great. Great starting point... but it's still the basic vanilla reference. By Vanilla I'm not implying bad or wrong, but there can be more.

    The 1st step or possible Relationships usually are Modal, or modal functional concepts . Again it's a different concept, right, the technical guitar BS is just guitar skills.

    How those technical skills function within music have common practice and being able to use one's skills in different contexts can very easily also be taught. At least physically from basic position design. I use to say it's like... Plug and Play with a Reference.

    And yes it's always all aspect of music. Eventually that's a given. We are on an amateur guitar forum right.

  23. #97

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    No not at all, those are the 1st step. The basics technical aspects of guitar technique. Then you learn about how to organize within relationships and how those relationships organize developments. Which organizes the use of all the technical BS while performing and being able to interact with other players versions of.

    The list you put out looks great. Great starting point... but it's still the basic vanilla reference. By Vanilla I'm not implying bad or wrong, but there can be more.

    The 1st step or possible Relationships usually are Modal, or modal functional concepts . Again it's a different concept, right, the technical guitar BS is just guitar skills.

    How those technical skills function within music have common practice and being able to use one's skills in different contexts can very easily also be taught. At least physically from basic position design. I use to say it's like... Plug and Play with a Reference.

    And yes it's always all aspect of music. Eventually that's a given. We are on an amateur guitar forum right.
    Yep, my list is all undergrad technique stuff alright.

    So, how can one better understand the ramifications of what you're describing in terms of musical application? Some etudes or tunes or ensemble scenarios, and what to do with them? In other words, how does one bridge the gap from a solid technical foundation to achieving the knowledge and skill that you're referring to?

    Thanks again.

  24. #98
    Bannedd twice for being a troll. Never posted any playing or proved the supposed authority with which he spoke. Must be nice to change your name and start over on occasion...

    Groundhog Day.

  25. #99

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Donplaysguitar
    Yes thanks. And I assume we're talking about melody lines in the context of all these chordal/harmonic discussions, not chords themselves.

    I am cognizant enough to believe that the following should be mastered for any system of fingerings - at minimum:

    • 7 two-octave modes from the sixth string (simultaneously realizing that leaves out 7 alternate fingerings with CAGED and even more fingerings than that if one is a Leavitt 12-fingerings guy),
    • All one-octave modes within each fingering pattern,
    • Two octave scales/modes from the 6th and 5th strings, the latter involving a shift,
    • 3-octave scales/modes, although not as many as Berklee requires (utility vs. hours in the day is the concern),
    • 1, 2, and 3 octave arpeggios in the same fashion as the above (with similar sentiments toward 3 octave arpeggios - and - triad arpeggios). All inversions.
    • Other options - 2 octaves plus a fifth. Probably a more practical range than three octaves
    • All 12 keys in one positioan/area
    • All fingerings for one key (12 frets)
    • All one-octave modes from one note (same string, same fret)
    • All one-octave arpeggios from one note (same)
    • Jazz language exercises per chord quality - in all scale fingering patterns:
      • For one example - (1) half step below chord tone, (2) scale tone from above, (3) both. See Jospeh Viola as a reference but apply to the guitar).
      • 2,3,4 note approaches, enclosures, upper and lower neighbors yada yada.

    • Jazz language patterns and chord outlines per progression: in all practical scale fingering patterns:
      • Examples; II-V-Is, Blues, Rhythm Changes, Cycles, Turnarounds, Coltrane changes



    • Constantly reading a variety of material in each position/fingering pattern/area of the fretboard.



    So, that covers a lot, some would say too much. But it doesn't cover everything (nothing really does). What do we think is missing?

    Thanks again.
    To explore this a bit further and for the sake of discussion ....

    I know that great players have done exactly what you recommend.

    But, I've been working on a alternative path and I'm still trying to understand if I'm missing anything.

    Suppose you know all the notes of a Cmajor scale, and you know where every one of them is without having to think about it.
    Also, that you have some facility on the instrument.

    Now, given that knowledge, but without practicing fingerings, suppose I suggest that you put a certain finger on a certain note from the C scale. Could be any note, any fret, any finger. Couldn't you play a C scale starting on that note? And, if I said start, say, at the A string, 3rd fret and end at the high G on the 15th fret, high E string, couldn't you do that too?

    Seems to me that it's a lot of work to learn the notes of the scales/modes/arps you want to use. And, it's some work to learn the fingerboard, every note by name, instantly. But, it seems like a lot more work (to the point where I can't do it) to try to keep all those patterns straight. Of course,the fact that I can't do it doesn't mean somebody else can't do it.

    If, I'm beginning to understand Reg's way of thinking at all (and I'm really not sure I do), maybe he's organized his approach by patterns in a very sophisticated way. So, for example, if he puts his second finger on low G, he sees all the patterns that G might work with. Meaning all the scales/modes/arps with that G. And, apparently, other constructions that might work against the same chord that might not even have a G.

    Yesterday I played an outdoor jam in which we read Pick Up The Pieces. I had that single note lick that goes from low C to Bb (the chart had an even higher note, Eb, but I don't hear that on the recording). Simple lick and it can be played in the 5th position without shifting. I assume that if somebody is thinking about patterns while trying to read, they might play it that way.

    But, the lick has to be nailed in time a zillion times through this tune. Time feel has to be snappy. So, for me, it became easier not to play the first note (the low C) with the fourth finger, but rather with the third. This creates a problem. There is a G at the fifth fret which now is a reach-back. First decision: stretch a finger or move your hand? Next decision: after the G comes an Ab. Slide into it? Move the finger and pick the Ab? Or play the rest of the lick in 5th position and move to 6th position during the 16th rest before the lick repeats?

    To me, this is what reading is. Making these choices as you go. I just don't see how patterns help. Maybe the issue is that not many guitar players are particularly good readers. Or, if they are, maybe that came after they had mastered things by patterns.

  26. #100

    User Info Menu

    That's interesting, Matt. Thanks maybe. There just aren't that many musicians that can have that conversation, and then even less who have the skills.

    Where I was going was to ask if Don could take a up tempo jazz tune and play, (or notate) it using traditional Borrowing transpositions, Relative and Parallel. Example... any bebop or old school jazz tune, say in Bb.... so in live time play in Bb Min. or any of the relative functional Relationships. Which is really just a technical exercise, right. Almost mechanical if you have your positional skills together. Generally there are a few changed notes , which would reflect the style of the tunes or just common practice harmonies that one likes.

    That is still the vanilla approach but still explains practical applications of using 7 positions and their implications etc... It's just a plug and play exercise after a little practice, understanding the organization.

    Anyway all pretty standard working jazz player BS. I remember on some gigs, expanding the organization of transposition with Functional relationship where we would play functional subs and sub chord patterns... never actually play the changes. Simple example Tritione subs with extensions.... the organization Altered and Lydian Dom. within chord progressions. And again knowing where to break or change the pattern, usually because of the rhythm, the harmonic rhythm..... yea who cares, but can make boring gigs fun.

    hey Rick, hope your well... so any approach can work. And sure I know, can hear and play any notes of Cmaj scale, without thinking...But I also can play any notes or chords of.... scales and chords that have.... wait.... Functional
    relationships with Cmaj or any note of that Cmaj scale.

    It's more difficult than just knowing Cmaj etc... but that's just the way I figured it out as a Kid. It's like sight reading, with practice, you really just recognize collections or patterns of notes and the rhythm their notated with. Your not reading note to note... you read the 1st note of a phrase and recognize the pattern, the rhythm is always more important when performing live. And the accent pattern or harmonic rhythm of the phrase tells you etc... When I sight read, I also always have an analysis going on, just the way I work, can't help it.... obviously doesn't get in the way of my playing, I've always had plenty of chops.... sometimes my choices may suck, but that a different thing. There's another pretty good player on this forum, DB or Dutch he doesn't like my style of playing. Not the 1st or last and I'm good with that. I listen to his playing, he sounds great, but more like I was taught to play as a kid. It's cool, but not that entertaining personally.... But I respect his playing etc... Would love to see him on gig where we might have some fun actually making music.. support and interact etc... Forums are what they are.

    It just becomes mindless, probable why I can't explain is simply.