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  1. #1

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    Since I've gotten started recording recently, I've been fighting trying to get a decent tone on my tracks. I'm recording my Tele straight into the interface and recording on Reaper and the raw tone just sucks. I also don't like the attack I'm getting with a pick so I switched to thumb and when I use the side of my thumb it seems better better but still not there. I'm trying to get a 'Wes' type single string sound. Could it be I need to record using amp syms or running the line out from my Evans RE200 into the interface? BTW, the Tele pickups are just standard Fender single coils - either noiseless or '52's - can't remember what I put in it last time.
    Any suggestions?

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    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #2

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    As I have mentioned before, the initial attack of a plucked guitar note is a hot mess of chaotic output in the microseconds it takes for the string to settle in to a stable vibrational mode with identifiable harmonic content. That's one of many reasons I love tube amps with their soft-knee compression and even order-harmonics. Lacking tubes, a compressor used as a peak limiter at least tends to keep the chaos from dominating the ear's impression of the note. You might try that. Of course, one of your amp syms may have that stuff modeled. Good luck!

  4. #3

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    You just need good amp plugins. It's almost 2021, those things are commonly used for home recordings for almost 20 years now, right?

  5. #4

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    Getting the sound of Wes Montgomery from a Tele is going to be very difficult, if even possible. The vibration of the humbucker with the top, under the vibrating strings, gives a complexity of sound that just isn't possible from a rigid plank. Perhaps some pedals or software could help some, but a tele is never going to sound quite the same. It's possible to get somewhere in the ballpark, perhaps, but not the same.

  6. #5

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    I think you can get close. Thumb is huge. It has to be thumb to sound like Wes.

    You're not going to get that "Misty" on Smokin' at the Half Note sound, where you're really getting some acoustic properties of the guitar coming through. But Wes' more plugged in sounds, I'm gonna try.

    I'm going to try a little experiment later, and see how "Wes" like I can get with my tele. There's a few tricks I have in mind...

  7. #6

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    I think you can get Wes vibe on a tele playing with thumb for sure. But from the OP I gather the problem is basically recording straight to the interface, with no amps or plugins. It's not a nice sound to say the least, Wes or no Wes. It's like plug in guitar into PA mixing board with no pedals or amp simulation. I can't think of anything good comes out of it, and it's so not fun.

    Reaper doesn't come with guitar plugins, so you might want to invest into Ampltube or Guitar Rig apps, they supposed to be good. I have Logic, and Fender Blackface plugin sounds mighty good!

    The alternative is to use pedals or your amp direct out to interface. It should work, but less flexible for editing.

  8. #7

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    wes was using a standel solid state amp with a big jbl 15" speaker....15's move a lot of air...hard sound to duplicate

    cheers
    Last edited by neatomic; 12-08-2020 at 04:29 PM. Reason: typo-

  9. #8

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    Speaker IR’s help a lot.

  10. #9

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    I used Reaper for a while, and I didn't know about that guitar plug in!

  11. #10

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    I suggest good arch-top jazz guitar for the style of Wes.Hollow-body guitar with the thumb is a quintesence of Wes sound.
    Octavs,chords,scals sounds more realistic and powerfull with real jazz box.
    my 1 cent
    Best
    Kris
    ps.
    anway I like Teles.I have 3 of them...:-)

  12. #11

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    Quote Originally Posted by neatomic
    wes was using a standel solid state amp with a big jbl 15" speaker....15's move a lot of air...hard sound to duplicate

    cheers
    And that sound went into a microphone, down cables and into a mixing desk, behind which sat Orrin Keepnews or Creed Taylor.

  13. #12

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    Quote Originally Posted by Litterick
    And that sound went into a microphone, down cables and into a mixing desk, behind which sat Orrin Keepnews or Creed Taylor.
    i dont think keepnews or taylor sat behind the mixing desk. they were producers and not engineers. many of wes' most famous recordings have the guitar actually plugged directly into the mixing console. (edit: i think this is mentioned in the booklet of the riverside box)

    best amp i've ever played: fender jazz king
    Last edited by djg; 12-12-2020 at 04:58 PM.

  14. #13

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    Quote Originally Posted by djg;[URL="[URL
    tel:1082232[/URL]"]1082232[/URL]]many of wes' most famous recordings have the guitar actually plugged directly into the mixing console.
    thats interesting ....

    IME a tele with light gauge plugged direct to a console sounds a bit ‘ding ding’
    and needs an amp or preamp to fatten it up somewhat

    but a jazz box with fat strings can sound
    pretty good straight in ....

    I think an easy and cheap solution for
    you might be one of these

    https://m.thomann.de/gb/harley_benton_american_truetone.htm

  15. #14

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    The impedance of the input should match with guitar's. If the interface doesn't have dedicated hole for the guitar, it's hopeless to get a good sound like that.

  16. #15

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    it was not unusual for guitarists to go thru an amp and a direct box...so the board would get mic'd amp sound and direct...and could be blended for best tone

    in jazz focused studios in nyc, like nola, they'd have the electric bassist go thru an ampeg b-15 and a direct box...but most often just use the direct box channel & not even mic the ampeg

    the ampeg fliptop b-15 was the nyc studio standard, even into the 80's

    a classic workhorse amp


    cheers

  17. #16

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
    Since I've gotten started recording recently, I've been fighting trying to get a decent tone on my tracks. I'm recording my Tele straight into the interface and recording on Reaper and the raw tone just sucks. I also don't like the attack I'm getting with a pick so I switched to thumb and when I use the side of my thumb it seems better better but still not there. I'm trying to get a 'Wes' type single string sound. Could it be I need to record using amp syms or running the line out from my Evans RE200 into the interface? BTW, the Tele pickups are just standard Fender single coils - either noiseless or '52's - can't remember what I put in it last time.
    Any suggestions?
    I'd suggest not recording direct from the guitar to the board. I like using an amp that has a direct line out from the preamp, or better, a line out with cabinet emulation. This gives you more control over your sound. I also like using a Shure SM57 on the cab. It's amazing how well that works, even at low volumes. Most amps now have a pre-amp line out, so you can get the tone you like before sending it to the board.

  18. #17

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    Ok IR thing. ‘impulse response’ tech is great at simulating resonance and space; so acoustic guitar bodies, rooms, speaker cabs and speakers. Stuff like that.

    Get the ‘Wall of Sound’ plugin from TwoNotes Torpedo. Use a DI from your amp, character pedal, software amp or whatever you use. You can decide what kind of space you want and what type of speaker and mic you want.

    You’ll never need to Mike an amp again.

    This is how it sounds with the IR using the Junior Barnyard preamp for a Charlie Christian vibe. (Sorry about the Instagram link.)
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    This is simulating a ribbon mic on a 10” speaker in a room with hard surfaces with the mic backed off slightly from the amp (I hate the sound of close miking.)

    The rhythm guitar was recorded with another type of IR; a Tonedexter on a DI’d piezo pickup.


    Very natural I think.
    Last edited by christianm77; 12-13-2020 at 02:53 PM.

  19. #18

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Ok IR thing. ‘impulse response’ tech is great at simulating resonance and space; so acoustic guitar bodies, rooms, speaker cabs and speakers. Stuff like that.

    Get the ‘Wall of Sound’ plugin from TwoNotes Torpedo. Use a DI from your amp, character pedal, software amp or whatever you use. You can decide what kind of space you want and what type of speaker and mic you want.

    You’ll never need to Mike an amp again.

    This is how it sounds with the IR using the Junior Barnyard preamp for a Charlie Christian. (Sorry about the Instagram link.)
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    This is simulating a ribbon mic on a 10” speaker in a room with hard surfaces with the mic backed off slightly from the amp (I hate the sound of close miking.)

    The rhythm guitar was recorded with another type of IR; a Tonedexter on a DI’d piezo pickup.


    Very natural I think.
    I have the El Pescadoro pedal cited in the link. Haven't tried it with the 175 as yet. Very cool pedal!

    BTW, enviable tone and playing with your 175, Nice!

  20. #19

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    Quote Originally Posted by citizenk74
    I have the El Pescadoro pedal cited in the link. Haven't tried it with the 175 as yet. Very cool pedal!

    BTW, enviable tone and playing with your 175, Nice!
    Thanks!

    It’s one of THOSE pedals in that it sounds great with every guitar including piezo acoustics (!)

    Anyway mine arrived the other day. I love how it has different knobs and rubber feet from my friends. Clearly built by one guy in a workshop like the old Klon centaurs...

  21. #20

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    Quote Originally Posted by Skip Ellis
    Since I've gotten started recording recently, I've been fighting trying to get a decent tone on my tracks. I'm recording my Tele straight into the interface and recording on Reaper and the raw tone just sucks. I also don't like the attack I'm getting with a pick so I switched to thumb and when I use the side of my thumb it seems better better but still not there. I'm trying to get a 'Wes' type single string sound. Could it be I need to record using amp syms or running the line out from my Evans RE200 into the interface? BTW, the Tele pickups are just standard Fender single coils - either noiseless or '52's - can't remember what I put in it last time.
    Any suggestions?
    Amp sims make a huge difference. I get more convincing amp tones out of plugins than I do mic'ing an amp (and I have a great amp and decent mics) when I record at home.

    The line out from your amp might sound better if it has speaker emulation circuitry of some kind, but if it doesn't it'll probably still sound overly bright and the attack will seem distorted.

    John

  22. #21

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    Wes often had an acoustic quality to his recordings so his guitar may have been mic'd, with another in front of his amp.

  23. #22

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    Quote Originally Posted by vsaumarez
    Wes often had an acoustic quality to his recordings so his guitar may have been mic'd, with another in front of his amp.
    Funny how perceptions differ. I never think if Wes having an acoustic tone. It always seemed to me the quintessential electric L5 sound. But my ear isn’t the final authority I should listen more with that in mind.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  24. #23

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    Any electric guitar with any PU clean output into a guitar amp-less chain sounds terrible, you simply can not do that. Guitar amps even in the cleanest setting way effects the sound, that is what we know as "clean electric sound".

    Either

    a) use a software amp sim like AmpliTube 4, or the brand new 5. An alternative is Bias Amp 2. Any amp sim has VST plugin version, so you simply can configure inside your DAW (Reaper) track.
    b) use you amp line out if any, in case of no line out, try the headphones out.
    c) If there is no line or headphone out on the amp use a microphone, the universal cheapest instrument mic is Shure SM 57, dynamic, or a cheaper condenser mike

    Option a) or b) is recommended, which is the easier to try

  25. #24

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor
    Any electric guitar with any PU clean output into a guitar amp-less chain sounds terrible, you simply can not do that.
    Not true in all cases. This is my ES 175 plugged straight into my recording device, all that was added was a little reverb. No amp sims or other effects.


  26. #25

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    yeah !
    nothing wrong with that
    sound (or playing for that matter !)

  27. #26

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gabor;[URL="tel:1085136"
    1085136[/URL]]Any electric guitar with any PU clean output into a guitar amp-less chain sounds terrible, you simply can not do that. Guitar amps even in the cleanest setting way effects the sound, that is what we know as "clean electric sound".
    not true dat ....

  28. #27

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    Recording with Reaper, one of the Amp/Cabinet sims that comes with Reaper...

    My friend wanted me to put some guitar on his tune. This is the Amp and Cabinet Impulse Response Simulation that comes with Reaper for this recording, guitar plugged directly into audio interface ((i.e. no real amps or mics). I used some free Amplitube4 effect pedals but not the Amplitube4 amp or speaker. Great for staying quiet and not disturbing others in the household.

    Probably not the tone most are going for here, but if you don't add the effects I did (overdrive, delay, reverb) I think it will work well for more straight ahead jazz tone.

    Last edited by fep; 12-24-2020 at 02:56 PM.

  29. #28

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    I am taking notes from this thread. I tried to use Reaper once and got frustrated.

    I will be going back again, armed with some knowledge from this thread.

  30. #29

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    Don’t fear the Reaper.

  31. #30

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    Quote Originally Posted by grahambop
    Not true in all cases. This is my ES 175 plugged straight into my recording device, all that was added was a little reverb. No amp sims or other effects.

    Impressive. Maybe it's my technique or my guitars' setups, but the low-end always becomes a boomy mess when I record direct like this. That said, it sounded to me like you were playing primarily on the higher-pitched strings. How does, say, a thumpy Bb on the low E string sound using this method with your particular gear?

  32. #31

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    I believe Reaper has a built in guitar and amp plugin? Where you can record direct and then apply these on your track. I have these in my PC, don't think they came with the focusrite interface.

  33. #32

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    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    Ok IR thing. ‘impulse response’ tech is great at simulating resonance and space; so acoustic guitar bodies, rooms, speaker cabs and speakers. Stuff like that.

    Get the ‘Wall of Sound’ plugin from TwoNotes Torpedo. Use a DI from your amp, character pedal, software amp or whatever you use. You can decide what kind of space you want and what type of speaker and mic you want.

    See also Celestion :

    Celestion Impulse Responses | Dynamic Speaker Responses

    for several IR collections.

  34. #33

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    i'm all about the fake ass amps these days. here are some thoughts as they might pertain to you jazzing fellows:

    softube amp room- my personal favorite. some top shelf sounds to start with, but if you keep buying and expanding, you get even topper shelf stuff. best cabs out there, best marshalls, if you're into that. the bluesbreaker is a great amp for jazz; warm, dark, throaty cleans. marshall cab pack is very recommended, the handwired 1x12 greenback cab is awesome for cleans.

    neural- only the cory wong seems to apply. maybe the plini has a clean amp in there, as well? while i don't have experience with those sets, i have a few of their other products and they are widely regarded as amongst the best in sims today, if not the forerunner. they just concentrate more on high gain.

    amplitube 5- i just upgraded to a5 max. the amps are vastly improved, many as good as anything out there now. the cabs are better than before, but i can still take or leave a lot of them, and prefer to use my own irs, or the softube ones with them instead. luckily, their fender collection is much improved. the super reverb in fender two being the star of the show, but any blackface in fender 1 should suffice. though i highly recommend getting that super reverb 4x10 cab- it just has a special something.

    i haven't tried any of their free generic fenders because i have the fancy ones and didn't see the point, but i'm sure they are usable now; they were trash before. luckily, the fender cabs are pretty good and very important to that fender sound, so if you spring for one or two of the good fender cabs, you should be able to spruce up the generic ones a great deal. the 4x10s, 3x10s, or the 1x15 bassman are all pretty badass, and each have their own thing going. they standard 1x12 and 2x12s are cool, but have less character, which may be a good thing, depending on your usage.

    as for irs, i have wall of sound and go back and forth on it these days. sometimes it's fine, often it's way too bright and i still generally prefer other things. but if you are handy enough with the eq and post processing, these aren't bad. the celestion irs i found sort of generic, but they work. york ir's seem to be what all the cool kids are going with these days. no real experience, but premixed irs like those will always sound better than a single mic capture.

  35. #34

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alter
    I believe Reaper has a built in guitar and amp plugin? Where you can record direct and then apply these on your track. I have these in my PC, don't think they came with the focusrite interface.
    Yes they do, that's what I used in post #27 above.

  36. #35

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    I usually go guitar> ME80 > Focusrite 2i2 > Reaper. I then monitor with my Little Jazz, so as I play, I'm hearing my usual sound.

    The ME80 is supplying reverb only except in particular situations where I need a processed sound.

    The resulting tone has worked fine. I have posted several tunes over the last few months done that way.

    For one tune, I set up a mic'ed amp. I still used the ME80, which has L and R outputs. One went to the 2i2 and the other went into the amp. I then plugged the mic into the 2i2.

    I set Reaper to record them on different channels and mixed them later to taste.

    Since I'm recording with reverb, I can't change it except to add more on top. That's a potential disadvantage, but I'm not bothered by it.

    I haven't used anything fancy inside Reaper. I use the EQ that came with it -- which has an 11 or 12 band setting that I like. I also have used the reverb, but I like the ME80's reverb better.

    You can tame the Tele with EQ, reverb or one of the fancier plugins (I call them fancy because I've never used them). Or, you can send the output to an amp, mic it and send it back in to Reaper, or so I think. I've never done it.

  37. #36

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    Quote Originally Posted by wzpgsr
    Impressive. Maybe it's my technique or my guitars' setups, but the low-end always becomes a boomy mess when I record direct like this. That said, it sounded to me like you were playing primarily on the higher-pitched strings. How does, say, a thumpy Bb on the low E string sound using this method with your particular gear?
    I haven’t noticed any problems with this approach. Here’s something I recorded direct with a Boss OC3 octave pedal, so some of the bass notes are doubled an octave lower, seems ok to me: