The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
Reply to Thread Bookmark Thread
Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Posts 51 to 75 of 97
  1. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I sure others will chime in. But if I haven't mastered something in one key or a few keys, I find it very dry and unproductive to work on playing it in 12 keys.
    I instead take tune and apply the concept whereever I can in the tune. This way you end up working on it in a few keys in a musical way. But also killing two birds because you're also learning the tune better in the mean time.

    I would take two altered ideas. Say augmented arpeggio from the third and b9, #9 down to the 6th (the 3rd of the target) and come up with phrases based on these two. Then I would apply them to a tune that I know reasonably well. I would consider that a very productive practice session.
    Thanks
    Ive worked out a few patterns using arps and short scale runs to fit a II V I and practised them in the key of G and F so far.
    Please could you spell out the notes for your suggested altered ideas - sorry I'm dull. Cheers

  2.  

    The Jazz Guitar Chord Dictionary
     
  3. #52

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by garybaldy
    Thanks
    Ive worked out a few patterns using arps and short scale runs to fit a II V I and practised them in the key of G and F so far.
    Please could you spell out the notes for your suggested altered ideas - sorry I'm dull. Cheers
    I work on these things in the context of tunes. If I get a chance, I'll pick a tune and record something to show one way of working on developing phrases.
    In the key of Gminor the notes of D7alt ideas I mentioned would be:

    #9, b9 down to the 6th: F, Eb, D, C, Bb (note Bb is target here as it's the 3rd of Gminor)
    augmented arpeggio from the third: F# Bb D F

    Note the arpeggio can be connected with the first idea since the last note of the arpeggio (F) can start the first idea. Passing notes, trills, approach notes, octave displacements, triplets etc can be used to generate various phrases with just these two building blocks and resolve to G minor. Like I said, if I get a chance, I'll record one way of how to do this in the context of a tune.

  4. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    Possibly because it's about altered scales in relation to ii-V-I's.

    ... although it appears the OP has lost interest :-)
    Thanks all for your comments. So much great stuff.
    Sorry for some delay in my responses - there will be more to follow!!
    No, I most certainly have not lost interest and I am indebted to you all.
    Cheers

  5. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Tal_175
    I work on these things in the context of tunes. If I get a chance, I'll pick a tune and record something to show one way of working on developing phrases.
    In the key of Gminor the notes of D7alt ideas I mentioned would be:

    #9, b9 down to the 6th: F, Eb, D, C, Bb (note Bb is target here as it's the 3rd of Gminor)
    augmented arpeggio from the third: F# Bb D F

    Note the arpeggio can be connected with the first idea since the last note of the arpeggio (F) can start the first idea. Passing notes, trills, approach notes, octave displacements, triplets etc can be used to generate various phrases with just these two building blocks and resolve to G minor. Like I said, if I get a chance, I'll record one way of how to do this in the context of a tune.
    Thanks Tal for the explanation.
    I've been using something similar which is either an idea by Jens Larsen or based on one of his ideas.
    ie. over D7alt - an Ab7 arp to the aug giving : notes Gb Eb C Ab (back up to) D Bb F# C ending on B (or Bb) on the tonic.
    Yes, these phrases have to be applied to songs.
    Cheers

  6. #55

    User Info Menu

    Another thing that helps is using a repeated rhythm. (I know a lot of the examples just chug along in 8th notes, so this is an additional idea.) A repeated rhythm across chords ties them together and makes whatever pitches you play sound more inevitable. Sprinkle in a little voice leading and voila!

  7. #56

    User Info Menu

    Not an expert on this, still struggling, but it seems to me the easiest way to get the sound of the altered dominant in one's head is on a ii V I, for the V, play the Pentatonic scale of the Tritone. So for G7, play Db Pentatonic: Db Eb F Ab Bb gives you b5 #5 b7 b9 #9 and it's easy enough to find. Almost any note then resolves by a half-step to something that fits a C Major. Baby steps, to be sure.

  8. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    I have always struggled with scale-centered approaches. I have a hard time remembering scales, remembering where to use them, and I basically over-think everything. I have recently instead started learning licks from lick books or memorized solos that use whatever sound (I like "sound" better than "scale") I'm trying to learn. I learn those bits of vocabulary and try to export them to whatever else I'm playing until they fall under my fingers reasonably well. I know I should learn the scales, run 'em up, down, modes... but I just hate that stuff and I've never been able to absorb the sound ideas and actually finding them on the fingerboard that way. Likely this is why I'll never be that good at jazz! But I have found I prefer to learn little "vocabulary" items and phrases from actual solos that I can absorb and re-use.
    I don't tend to find myself using the scale approach either. I think about note relationship to the chord as well as licks.

  9. #58

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by lawson-stone
    Not an expert on this, still struggling, but it seems to me the easiest way to get the sound of the altered dominant in one's head is on a ii V I, for the V, play the Pentatonic scale of the Tritone. So for G7, play Db Pentatonic: Db Eb F Ab Bb gives you b5 #5 b7 b9 #9 and it's easy enough to find. Almost any note then resolves by a half-step to something that fits a C Major. Baby steps, to be sure.
    Dom Pent at tritone gives you the 3rd in place of #9. I find pitch collections against alt doms sound more convincing when the 3rd and 7th is present, but then, I'm a wuss....

  10. #59

    User Info Menu

    There is a way to get the altered sound by using the minor pentatonic from the b3 of the dom chord - i.e. Bbm over G7. It's interesting because it only contains all the altered sounds including the b7 but not the dom chord root:

    Bb Db Eb F Ab Bb

    It works although, personally, I find it a bit unsubtle :-)

  11. #60

    User Info Menu

    Yea altered scales, arpeggios, chords etc... personally are just about how I want the note collections to Function.

    By Function I mean ... Where and Why the notes create a perception of movement. Both melodically and harmonically. There are still three basic types of movement or Functional Groups.

    Tonic... or stable
    Dominant... or the least stable
    Subdominant... the middle area...

    Chords and Arpeggios are easy to see and hear, melodic lines through use of Tendency Tones, either Context Dependent or Style Dependent... also create that perception of tension.... which generally wants to resolve or move to Consonance. And that perception of Tension created defines what Function Group. T SD D

    If your still trying to get the fretboard thing together... that's just a matter of choosing what fingering system you use or want to use. And work it out.

    If your still having melodic problems of spelling or implying chords and their type of Function,
    Like an Altered II V7 I thing. You need to go through the process of notate it out... using typical patterns.
    You need to decide on which versions of each chord you want to pull notes from...

    examples

    D-7b5 G7altered C-7 ( or Cma7)

    So there are a few choices of D-7b5 right.
    This basically from CST, but using it as a musically organized approach for sources for possible spellings of Chords

    Locrian from Eb Major Scale
    Semilocrian from Fmm and Superlocrian from Eb Mel. Min.
    Locrian #6 from C har. Min. and Ultralocrian from Eb Har. Min.
    and maybe...
    Dorian b5 from C Har. Maj. and Locrian bb7 from Eb Har. Maj.(no b7)

    I generally like Locrian and Locrian #6

    Anyway...I added a PDF of G-7b5 chord Arpeggio fingerings with example of pattern, starting on rt, b3, b5 and b7.
    You go through same process with all chords and also more patterns with embellishments which imply how you want the chord or arpeggio to create Function.I like Blue Notes, and use MM (altered) with a Dorian reference.
    You then start using Subs, both Functional and Diatonic. Expand both through using Chord Patterns etc...
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Reg; 10-10-2020 at 05:05 PM.

  12. #61

    User Info Menu

    Appreciate the post ...

    I'm going to try to break it down note by note.

    Locrian from Eb Major Scale. There are three flats in this scale Bb, Eb, Ab.

    Semilocrian and Superlocrian from F Mel. Min. Two flats in this scale, Bb Ab

    Locrian #6 and Ultralocrian from F Har. Min. This one I'm not getting. Three flats in F harmonic minor. Ab Bb Db. A Db against Dm7b5? Maybe this is C harmonic minor? C D Eb F G Ab B . Second mode is Locrian #6. That would be Eb and Ab.

    Dorian b5 and Locrian bb7 from C Har. Maj. C D E F G Ab B C. One flat, Ab.

    So, taking it as a whole, for Dm7b5, all the scales contain C D F G Ab. Then, you get to pick B vs Bb, E vs Eb. That's 4 possibilties (don't forget, they all have an Ab).

    B E - D dorian b5
    Bb Eb - D locrian
    Bb E - F melodic minor
    B Eb - C harm minor

    So, my thought is to make a backing track, play a line and then play it with each of the above adjustments.

    The scale names can be confusing until you get used to them ... but it's really just two notes varying by a half step each.

    What am I missing?
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 10-10-2020 at 04:24 PM.

  13. #62

    User Info Menu

    Hey Rick, thanks. yes..I'm old.LOL screwed that up, I fixed above... Here are the corrected spellings...

    Locrian from Eb Major Scale
    Semilocrian from Fmm and Superlocrian from Eb Mel. Min.
    Locrian #6 from C har. Min. and Ultralocrian from Eb Har. Min.
    and maybe...
    Dorian b5 from C Har. Maj. and Locrian bb7 from Eb Har. Maj.(no b7)


    Yes the 1st or starting "Reference" for each chord, ex. of the D-7b5 is just a few different notes when you expand the chord with extensions etc. But when you start using Function Groups as musical Control, (T SD and D)...

    Basically when you start playing not just what the chart or tune is, but some of the possibilities of expanding etc...

    That single chord, D-7b5 can become... Diatonic or Functional Sub.
    ex.
    Diatonic subs are up or down a Diatonic 3rd. Up is F-7 and Down is Bb7

    Functional subs are style or context derived. Simple example D-7b5 as Dominant function resolving to Ebmaj could have Function sub of Bb7 or any other chord with same Function, the tritone sub... Fb7 or expand using Borrowing from Relative and Parallel relationships.

    Chord Patterns expanded from that D-7b5... can be as different as Maj and Min... And with Jazz or any Style or Context dependent Functional organization... the result, depending on how many layers etc... anyway it gets a little complicated and embellishment approach becomes mud. Or as I say to often, vanilla with mud.

    When you start using Modal interchange as expanded Borrowing approach, there are very organized layers of expansion. When one embellishes a note... the embellishments can also have harmonic organization.

    Anyway... yea thanks for fixing the HM reference, getting me to check what I'm writing LOL.

    I'll also post some more on your Wave... thread...I was singing your melodies for a few days, and I have some very organized concepts for making rhythm work.

  14. #63
    You guys know your stuff. It's getting a bit heavy for me now. I'll need to spend a lot of time on this thread. Lots of theory which I'm starting to struggle with. I appreciated it all though. Cheers.

  15. #64

    User Info Menu

    I wouldn't worry about the theory side of it too much. It's mostly just wanking.

    I don't think you need to know what a 'semilocrian' or 'ultralocrian' is to play jazz. (Actually what is a semilocrian at that? Is ultralocrian some incredibly silly name for mode VII of harmonic minor? You guys lol.)

    Just practice yer melodic minor like a good boy and that'll do more good than hanging out with us weirdos.

  16. #65

    User Info Menu

    Knowing how to make altered sounds is one thing, knowing where and when to use them is another. And probably more important.

  17. #66

    User Info Menu

    Just practice yer melodic minor like a good boy
    Listen to Uncle Christian. For once he's right.

    Just this once, mind :-)

  18. #67

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by Reg
    Hey Rick, thanks. yes..I'm old.LOL screwed that up, I fixed above... Here are the corrected spellings...

    Locrian from Eb Major Scale
    Semilocrian from Fmm and Superlocrian from Eb Mel. Min.
    Locrian #6 from C har. Min. and Ultralocrian from Eb Har. Min.
    and maybe...
    Dorian b5 from C Har. Maj. and Locrian bb7 from Eb Har. Maj.(no b7)


    I'll also post some more on your Wave... thread...I was singing your melodies for a few days, and I have some very organized concepts for making rhythm work.
    Reg, looking forward to your posts re rhythm, and, that you were singing my melodies is very gratifying. Thanks for mentioning it.

    More notes on the notes:

    Superlocrian from Eb Mel. Min: This one has four flats. Bb Eb Ab and Gb. That Gb takes it out of the two-notes-varying paradigm I forwarded earlier. Eb F Gb Ab Bb C D. Gb is handle-with-care; sounds pretty dissonant to me, but the "wrong" note in the right line can be the best note.

    Ultralocrian from Eb Har. Min: This one, I guess, has a Gb. Notes are Eb F Gb Ab Bb Cb D. This one adds a Cb. That's also a challenging note against Dm7b5.

    I guess I don't understand why to think of the scales with a Gb as a "scale choice" rather than as just another note you might be able to find a clever use for in the context of the usual scale choices.

    Some of the material on usage is over my head. I find the scale names confusing because I haven't worked with them enough. But, at one level it's still varying just a few notes by a half step, in every possible combination.

    I think the utility of the various ways of thinking depends on how you approach soloing in general.
    Last edited by rpjazzguitar; 10-10-2020 at 10:55 PM.

  19. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    I wouldn't worry about the theory side of it too much. It's mostly just wanking.

    I don't think you need to know what a 'semilocrian' or 'ultralocrian' is to play jazz. (Actually what is a semilocrian at that? Is ultralocrian some incredibly silly name for mode VII of harmonic minor? You guys lol.)

    Just practice yer melodic minor like a good boy and that'll do more good than hanging out with us weirdos.
    Yes, it's all interesting stuff but far beyond me. There's plenty for me to do messing around with a few altered notes. For me, it's about how best to plan one's approach to getting it under one's belt.
    Cheers.

  20. #69

    User Info Menu

    Yeah I mean to be honest, the altered scale is a bit of chimera when it comes to II V I's, but that's a whole different long and tortuous thread.

    Voice leading is the key in these situations. Focus on stuff that moves by semitones.

  21. #70

    User Info Menu

    So garybaldy -

    Where are you now, if you don't mind my asking? We're on page 2 now and there have been lots of answers, some simple, some not.

    You said, in your very first post: 'Can anyone suggest a good approach please?'. Now, on page 2 after all this, you've said: 'It's about how best to plan one's approach to getting it under one's belt'.

    To me, that reads like you're no further forward. You're still asking the same question as at the beginning!

    There's no magic solution, it requires application. Beware quick 'n easy answers. There aren't any and, if there seem to be, it's unlikely they'll give you a real understanding of altered sounds and how to use them.

    The basic solution, which I know you already know, is to use the melodic minor scale a half-step above the root of your dominant chord - i.e. Ab mel m over G7 before CM7. There's no way round that. When that's understood then other ideas can be played with but one really has to start with that.

    It's not a question of throwing them at any old dominant chord, though. Non-resolving dominants (doms in the middle of a tune) usually need a lyd dom approach, but that's something else. Altered sounds over dominants nearly always occur over resolving doms, i.e. ones that resolve to their I chord, major or minor.

    So that's your approach. You can do exercises to get the notes under your fingers but then you need to apply them to something otherwise there's not much point to it.

    Take a tune you like. Don't forget they can resolve to minor chords too, not just major. Just experiment with them till you've got it.

    On a guitar, of course, shapes are moveable. The Ab melodic minor, which has its bass root on the 6th string, can be moved up or down anywhere you like. You don't have to learn a hundred different fingerings. Likewise with a 5th string root like C or Eb mel m which can also be moved.

    Those two should suffice at the beginning. Master those two and you'll be up and running fairly quickly. Listen to the sounds the notes make and put them in. Obviously the more you do it the simpler it gets.

    So it's up to you. The question's been answered really, hasn't it? Well, for me it has anyway. So, over to you...

    Then come back and show us how you're doing. If you want to, that is. It's not an exam!

  22. #71

    User Info Menu

    Here's something if you want it. This the first 8 bars of 'All The Things You Are'. It uses four separate keys, each one with a resolving dominant:

    Fm7 - Bbm7 - Eb7 - AbM7
    DbM7 - G7 - CM7 - %

    Cm7 - Fm7 - Bb7 - EbM7
    AbM7 - D7 - GM7 - %

    Eb7 = E mel m
    G7 = Ab mel m
    Bb7 = B mel m
    D7 = Eb mel m

    I've just looped it 3 times. And the first line is the example you asked about in your first post.


  23. #72

    User Info Menu

    So Gary.... most of this isn't really much theory. It's basic technique on your instrument.

    You should know and be able to at least play on your instrument...

    Major Scale and it's modes and Chord
    Melodic Minor Scales and it's modes and Chords
    Harmonic Minor and it's modes and Chords

    That's just 3 scales and their modes and chords, (starting on each degree of the 3 scales) That's only 21 patterns

    Throw in Diminished and Whole Tone, (symmetrical scales and chords)

    The next step is to learn Blue Notes and be able to add them to those scales and chords. Which will teach you how to expand blue notes.

    (Harmonic Major has been used in the last 30 or 40 years, get the basic three down first)

    This is just very mechanical technique... nothing magical, just basic jazz tools.


    Then you'll start to get into basic jazz theory... not complicated, just becoming aware of basic relationships.

    Like in II V I's, what is the Tonal Target or basic tonal reference which musically controls the possibilities of what notes you use.

    Ex. If your D-7b5 G7alt is going to Cmin. and you want that Cmin to be your Tonal Target or Tonal Reference...
    you would choose the extensions, Blue Notes, (added notes and embellishments), for the D-7b5 and G7alt.... that have a Relationship with that Cmin.....

    If your playing a Min Blues, or a swing tune.... that would have a Style or Context influence. (Context or Style Dependent).

    Now, yes it gets a little more complicated, I use Functional relationships to also influence added notes, and even use subs and chord patterns created from Functional expansion. But you don't start here.

  24. #73

    User Info Menu

    It would help to know what kind of music garybaldy is specifically interested in playing.

  25. #74

    User Info Menu

    Quote Originally Posted by christianm77
    It would help to know what kind of music garybaldy is specifically interested in playing.
    He mentioned boot camp.


  26. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by ragman1
    So garybaldy -

    Where are you now, if you don't mind my asking? We're on page 2 now and there have been lots of answers, some simple, some not.

    You said, in your very first post: 'Can anyone suggest a good approach please?'. Now, on page 2 after all this, you've said: 'It's about how best to plan one's approach to getting it under one's belt'.

    To me, that reads like you're no further forward. You're still asking the same question as at the beginning!

    There's no magic solution, it requires application. Beware quick 'n easy answers. There aren't any and, if there seem to be, it's unlikely they'll give you a real understanding of altered sounds and how to use them.

    The basic solution, which I know you already know, is to use the melodic minor scale a half-step above the root of your dominant chord - i.e. Ab mel m over G7 before CM7. There's no way round that. When that's understood then other ideas can be played with but one really has to start with that.

    It's not a question of throwing them at any old dominant chord, though. Non-resolving dominants (doms in the middle of a tune) usually need a lyd dom approach, but that's something else. Altered sounds over dominants nearly always occur over resolving doms, i.e. ones that resolve to their I chord, major or minor.

    So that's your approach. You can do exercises to get the notes under your fingers but then you need to apply them to something otherwise there's not much point to it.

    Take a tune you like. Don't forget they can resolve to minor chords too, not just major. Just experiment with them till you've got it.

    On a guitar, of course, shapes are moveable. The Ab melodic minor, which has its bass root on the 6th string, can be moved up or down anywhere you like. You don't have to learn a hundred different fingerings. Likewise with a 5th string root like C or Eb mel m which can also be moved.

    Those two should suffice at the beginning. Master those two and you'll be up and running fairly quickly. Listen to the sounds the notes make and put them in. Obviously the more you do it the simpler it gets.

    So it's up to you. The question's been answered really, hasn't it? Well, for me it has anyway. So, over to you...

    Then come back and show us how you're doing. If you want to, that is. It's not an exam!
    Still p1 I'm afraid. Family life and troublesome vehicles have taken over for a while.
    I'm still very grateful for everyone's offerings.