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I'd go further. I'd say ALL professional jazz musicians 'chunk' together ii and v into one thing.
Originally Posted by dasein
It's something that started really with the post-Parker era - music before that had a lot fewer ii-V's, so players tended to think more like V-I. Now during the bop era it became fashionable to turn dominant chords into a II-V. A good example would be the change from Whisperin to Groovin High - first few bars:
Whisperin'
| Eb | D7 | Eb | C7 |
Groovin High
| Eb | Am7 D7 | Eb | Gm7 C7 |
So the way Barry tells it is that he realised that Bird was just playing over the dominant chord even though the accompaniment was going II-V. So he based his teaching on that.
Now from Groovin High we can take that little figure over the Am7 D7 in the head and notice how Dizzy moves it around over all the different II-V's in the tune? That's a II-V lick. Most players learn II-V licks at jazz school as a way of playing through bebop changes etc.
The Barry Harris thing is a less lick based version of that really.
This doesn't mean you necessarily just play one scale or whatever, but you do think of the two things being joined together.
Yeah this is all really good stuff and is close to the way I think when playing bop, swing and so on. Frankly, I learned all of this by listening to recordings. I knew it all of the theory intellectually at 18, but it's different to hear it being done and realise how its being used and why.It doesn't take much theory to recognize that D dorian and G mixolydian are the same scale. Barry Harris calls Dm7 the "important minor" of G7, and advocates for thinking of a iim7/V7 progression as one giant V7, with the iim7 acting as a sort of suspension.
Pat Martino takes the inverse approach, converting everything to its minor equivalent. G7 becomes Dm7, the idea being that minor ideas are very familiar to guitarists. But the same basic approach.
What I would advocate is to take this same approach to melodic minor and altered 7th chords.
Let's take our same Dm7/G7 progression. To play an altered scale over the G7, you could think of the 7th mode of melodic minor (some people call it the altered scale, some people call it super locrian) starting on G. Some people suggest thinking of Ab melodic minor, as that's typically easier.
But I'd take it one step further. First, think of the tri-tone sub -- for G7, it'd be Db7
Dm7 / Db7 / Cmaj7
What scale goes with Db7? In this particular case, it'd be the fourth mode of melodic minor: lydian b7. Another easy way to think of it is just a regular dominant 7th scale (or mixolydian) with a raised fourth. There's a number of players who are thinking about it this way. Barry Harris seems to think of them as tri-tone lines instead of altered lines. And George Benson takes a similar approach in his notorious Hot Licks instructional video.
I think there's a number of advantages of thinking of it this way:
- If you've practiced a bunch of dom7 vocabulary, it's very easy to make the transition. The half step rules all carry over. That Ab melodic minor that we derived from going a halfstep up from G7? It's now the "important minor" for Db7. And lots of players also use m7b5 from the third (the so-called T-Bone Walker chord) and maj7 from the b7 as dominant chord substitutions. They're still there, except now the m7b5 has a natural 9, and the maj7 has either a flat or sharp 5. All those chords are very typical altered dominant subs, and this makes them easy to remember.
- The melodic voice leading is very easy to see if you're comfortable mixing and matching. Dm7 -> Db7 is a very easy transition to see, and most of the notes will resolve by a half-step. G7 -> Ab melodic minor is also very easy to see. I would actually practice running Dm7 into Db7 into Cmaj7 using just scales and resolving by step. It'll be a little mechanical, but you'll begin to hear how each note resolves, and from there it's easier to use it in real tunes.
Harmony wise, there's not that much to learn.
All the jazz harmony you need is in these three links
Dominant/Major
C7 --> Em7b5 --> Gm7/Gm6 --> Bbmaj7(#11) ( --> Dm7 --> Fmaj7 --> Am7)
(C13)
Minor (Melodic)
C7#11 --> Em9b5 --> Gm6(maj7) --> Bbmaj7#5 (it's one note different)(C13#11)
Link dominants with TRITONE SUB/DIMINISHED SYMMETRY (Brothers and sisters)
Modal Major/Minor (the Wes ladder)
(Am7) --> Cmaj7 --> Em7 --> Gmaj7 --> Bm7
That's IT. Anything else - diminished scales, whole tone, harmonic minor, Messiean modes etc - is just spice.
The main function of these links is to understand that it can all be done with major/dominant and minor. You don't need 8 million exotic scales. See Fm7b5, think Ab minor or Db7, see Db7b5#9, think D minor, see Cmaj7#5, think A minor, that type of thing.
With the harmony out of the way you can apply yourself to the much more important task of learning how to play good lines and melodies. Doesn't have to be solos - language is built into every tune. For using Bb minor on Eb7 going to Dm, look at Night in Tunisia for instance, and for the b9 bop sound, look at the minor II-V's in the bridge...Last edited by christianm77; 10-06-2020 at 12:55 PM.
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10-06-2020 08:35 AM
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Originally Posted by garybaldy
The altered scale is not based on the melodic minor a semi-tone above the Dom7th. It's based on the idea that the raised and lowered 5ths and 9ths of a dom7 chord voice resolve nicely in a V-I cadence to tones in I. If you construct a scale to include those notes (which you don't have to do, but can), it happens to be the same set of notes as the 7th mode of the MM scale a half step up, and as a mnemonic/learning/organizing device you can think of it in those terms. But it if doesn't work for you, then don't try to learn it that way. Instead, think in terms of why you are learning the scale and organize your self around the purpose(s).
OK, so there are two reasons to practice a scale: fear, and surprise, and ruthless efficiency.
or perhaps 1. for the sake of a technical exercise (a means of moving around on the instrument) and 2. for the sake of organizing the pitches that work over a chord or progression.
For 1, throw away the whole derivation/theory angle. It's irrelevant to the mechanics of learning and playing a scale, and an extra step in the thought process. I mean you could just as easily say "the ionian mode is based on the 4th step of the mixolydian mode," but you wouldn't; you would just go do re me fa sol la si do. Ditto for the altered scale. Instead, recognize the pattern of steps (half whole half whole whole whole) in the scale and keep repeating it until the sound of the pattern is burned into your mind/ear the way do re me fa sol la si do is. Move that pattern through a bunch of keys (your choice as to how to do that, but the cycle of 5ths works for me).
For 2, think about the purpose -- what notes do I play over a V7 (or various flavors of ii V i/I)? As rpjazzguitar says very thoroughly, the key is to recognize that you're altering the 5th and 9th, and keeping I III and b7. Playing the alt dominant serves the purpose of teaching your mind and fingers where those altered tones are so that you can play FROM them TO notes you might play once you arrive at I. But so, too, does playing arpeggios of a V7b9, V7#9, V7b5, and V7#5. (or #4 and b13 if it's easer to think of them that way). What ever gets you to the point of knowing how to play a line that encompasses tension/resolution is good. It doesn't have to be a scale if thinking about scales hurts your brain (it hurts mine).
John
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Another toolkit idea: triad pairs.
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Can you elaborate on those three "links" just a bit please? Originally Posted by christianm77
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You need to HEAR IT! Try practicing say a Min 9 Major 7 arpeggio throughout all of the CAGED system. Scott Henderson has some great lessons on this and other arpeggios that apply. Also it's a vocabulary and and you need to hear the sentence,paragraph, etc it's used in.
I think until you understand that, then it doesn't make sense to practice it.
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Might be best to take an example? Originally Posted by GTRMan
So for instance, let's take What is This Thing Called Love
As written
| Gm7b5 | C7 | Fm6 | % |
| Dm7b5 | G7alt | Cmaj7 | % |
If apply the simplest version of first rule
C7 --> Em7b5 --> Gm7/Gm6 --> Bbmaj7(#11)(C13)
(The roots are the chord tones of C7, which may help)
transposing as require, I have, for example:
| Eb7 | Gb7 | Fm6 | % |
| Bb7 | Db7 | Cmaj7 | % |
You don't even have to play all these options. You often hear just:
| Eb7 | % | Fm6 | % |
| Bb7 | % | Cmaj7 | % |
with maybe a touch of voice leading between the chords.
So this type of thing is useful if you know a ton of stuff to play on dominant chords (which is the Barry/David Baker thing, right?) Here each chord symbol refers to the material one will find in a whole scale including all the diatonic arpeggios, bebop dominant language, various bop scales, use of what Sheryl Bailey calls family of four (which is identical to our first link, diatonic seventh chords on the 7th chord tones right?) I don't overplay on the I chords, just some chord tones will be fine.
If you are used to working with II-V's you might prefer:
| Bbm7 | Eb7 | Fm6 | % |
| Fm7 | Bb7 | Cmaj7 | % |
(which is to say minor II-V = backdoor II-V for our purposes)
OK, now say I want a more melodic minor tinge. Say you know a ton of hip minor key bop lines, cool melodic minor patterns and wicked voicings.
We can use the second rule:
C7#11 --> Em9b5 --> Gm6(maj7) --> Bbmaj7#5 (again roots = C7 chord tones)
| Bbm(maj7) | Dbm(maj7) | Fm(maj7) | % |
| Fm(maj7) | Abm(maj7) | C maj7 | % |
This is the minor conversion best known from Pat Martino BTW.
If I wanted a more exotic tonality on Cmaj7 I could use Am(maj7) giving Cmaj#11#5.
You aren't listed to just using the melodic minor notes btw - it's just the Mel minor notes are the most consonant options. Mixing it up with dorian and harmonic minor can create a more natural effect; what Martino calls a 'minor topic.'
But these are simply converting to most familiar chords. You can convert to any chord you want.
As for the third rule... This can be most useful on tonic chords. With major chords I actually like this best with triads, not seventh chords. Using sevenths puts you in the zone of lydian a bit more quickly, which isn't what you always want.
Modal Major/Minor (the Wes ladder)
(Am7) --> Cmaj7 --> Em7 --> Gmaj7 --> Bm7
For instance, on C major7, try Em or G
On Gm vamp for instance, Wes will play Bbmaj7 and Dm7 very often.
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Cool. Muchas gracias!
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I'm not 100% convinced on diminished and whole tone scales being just "spice." I don't have a ton of evidence at the moment, it's just a hunch. Originally Posted by christianm77
What I really need to do is thoroughly study Monk (and Coltrane playing with Monk). They appear too much in his music for me to just dismiss as added color. My hypothesis is that they actually play important structural roles. But I would have to put in the time to confirm that. Sometimes the honest answer is just, "I don't know right now, ask me later."
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Yeah so my thing comes in with a bit of a bop/Parker bias. This is also not far from the kind of advice Mark Levine might give. But there are more quirky corners of jazz harmony. Originally Posted by dasein
Trane, McCoy Tyner etc favour half whole scales in a lot of situations.
As far as Monk goes, if you ever want to get completely hammered , Listen to Trane and Monk at Carnegie Hall and have a drink every time Monk plays a descending whole tone scale. I’m not saying you’ll end up getting your stomach pumped, but I’m not saying you won’t.
But that was a common thing back then. You’ll here Duke playing whole tone on 7#11 chords. Bud Powell of course. Even caught Ray Charles doing it. And Wes. They use it for runs and so on.
So the Wes whole tone sub on minor takes the II V7 link and plonks the whole tone on it. So you take Gm7 and put a C whole tone on it. (See Four On Six from Smokin at the Half Note) Could do same with diminished of course.
The II V relationship is probably the simplest and most obvious place to start; but the m7b5/minor/dominant link doesn’t get discussed enough. Both will get you through most situations.
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I got bored with the whole tone scale, it's too obvious. Except for Take The A Train, it quite suits that. Even Joe played it on that one.
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I find it more natural to think altered scale in terms of the tritone dominant (ie Lydian dominant superimposed on the tritone). That way you have all the chord tones aligned with the scale (namely the fifth) and your fretboard reference stays the same regardless of whether you're playing altered or unaltered dominant.
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Sorry, tal, what does that actually mean? The altered scale IS the lyd dom of the tritone. In other words G altered is the lydian dominant scale of Db7 - Ab melodic minor - over a G7.
Except that, technically, it's run from G to G rather than Db to Db.
And vice versa, naturally :-)
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Yes they are the same things. I'm just saying that as a small personal preference for visual reference. I use chord tones as a structural reference for single note lines. If you visualize the altered scale over a dominant chord, you don't have the chord tone 5th. But if think of it as Lyidan dominant over the tritone, I get all the chord tones 1, 3, 5, b7 + the 9, #11 and 13. That gives me a more immediate access to some bebop dominant material visually. Originally Posted by ragman1
On the other hand the altered scale view makes the altered notes more apparent (b9, #9, b5, #5) with respect to the dominant arpeggio notes. Which is also useful when working on lines but especially when comping.
I also see altered dominant as a family of related chords much like Christians good post above.Last edited by Tal_175; 10-07-2020 at 10:38 AM.
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yeah me too , I don't get the Bbmaj7 subs Originally Posted by GTRMan
thanks Mr Christian
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Appreciate Christian's post.
To translate the concept into Warren Nunes' language:
There are two types of chords, Type I and Type II.
In the harmonized major scale, Type I is Cmaj7 Em7 Gmaj7#11 Am7. They're interchangeable.
Type II is Dm7 Fmaj7 G7 Am7. Also interchangeable. I can't recall specifically how he dealt with Bm7b5 but probably Type II.
Am7 does double duty, both Type I and Type II.
He talked about 5 sounds in jazz. Major minor, diminished, whole tone and iirc melodic minor. But, mostly he talked about Type I and II.
Mark Levine points out that all melodic minor chords are interchangeable, because there's no avoid note. That one idea opens up a new world.
You can try this. Take a tune that starts on Fmaj7 for two bars and goes to Bb7#11 for two bars.
Play the Fmaj7 straight. When it gets to Bb7#11 think of Fmelmin. Play any chord that comes out of stacked thirds, ie Fminmaj7, Gsusb9, Abmaj7#5 etc. They'll all work. They won't sound alike but they'll all work. Then try picking any three notes from Fmelmin and playing them over Bb. That's likely to work too.
This combination of Nunes/Levine (not that they invented it, but where I learned it) will cover just about anything.
WT works on chords with altered 5ths and occasionally in wackier ways.
Diminished is another world which I don't feel qualified to address. I could use a good lesson simplifying diminished chords.
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Yes, so do I a lot of the time. Originally Posted by Tal_175
True, but I thought that was the object, to alter the 5th and 9th.If you visualize the altered scale over a dominant chord, you don't have the chord tone 5th.
I'm not sure here (I am listening, I might learn something!). Say I have G7 at the 3rd, and play Ab mel m. Playing that would include the G but not D natural. Are you saying envisage a Db7 chord and play Ab mel? It still wouldn't include the D (although I could include it if I wanted it, of course; makes a nice line).But if think of it as Lydian dominant over the tritone, I get all the chord tones 1, 3, 5, b7 + the 9, #11 and 13. That gives me a more immediate access to some bebop dominant material visually.
Sorry, I still don't quite get this. Explain using the G7/Db7 example.
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Do you mean the ones with Bbmaj7(#11) and Bbmaj7#5#11? Originally Posted by pingu
Send me a chord progression and I'll walk you through it. Turn every chord into whatever you want.
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Yes, it's thinking Db Lydian Dominant vs G7Alt. It's really just a simple point. Suppose you got a bunch of bebop type lines over dominant chords. Let's say going up half diminished arpeggio triplet from the third and descend the dominant scale with some half notes. Or minor arpeggio from the fifth and down the scale etc. Over G7 Alt if you take G7 arpeggio as your reference, then you don't have these lines readily available to you (since you don't have the fifth). But if you think Db7 arpeggio as your reference, then all these dominant chord tone based ideas can be plugged (you have the fifth, Ab). Of course when you go scale down you sharpen the 4th but that's the the root of the original dominant (G) so it's also an easy reference point. Originally Posted by ragman1
I think it's also important to see G7Alt with G7 reference to be able to see and hear the altered notes better and come up with ideas that sound different. But like I said, I don't think melodic minor directly, I prefer seeing the scale notes as family of related diatonic arpeggios as Christian's write up outlined above. These family of arpeggios are related to the chord tones of the dominant chord. But everybody seems to find their own way of approaching the fretboard that works well for them.
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I think it has something to do with how you think about finding the notes.
You can learn, say, a melodic minor pattern. So you remember to play melmin a half step above dominant. Abmelmin over G7.
But, if instead, you learned lydian dominant patterns you could say, play lyd dom against the tritone. So, Db7 is the tritone and Db lyd dom is your choice. Same notes as Abmelmin.
Or you could learn an alt fingering, which makes G alt easy. And, if you chose to do it that way, you could play it against Db7 and get lyd dominant.
I think it might be ideal, if you could do it, to learn all the versions as different things, so you play Abmelmin against Abminmaj7, and Galt against Galt and Dblyddom against Db7. That way, you're thinking is direct and, arguably, more related to the chord tones.
I can't do it that way. My mind won't assimilate a large number of similar patterns, keep them straight, and be able to start anywhere within the pattern. So, I try to do it by chord tones and extensions. If you know the construction of the chord you're playing, it seems easier to simply be aware of the revelevant sounds. Altered 5s, 9s, 6 or not, sus or 3. But, if the tempo is too high and you're in the key of F#, it might be good to know some patterns too.
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My childhood musical upbringing was learning very old songs (public domain) so my ear was trained to be diatonic with accidentals thrown in sometimes. As a result, it's difficult to hear the notes of the alt scale and how to use them. Originally Posted by garybaldy
A couple of years ago I worked on coming up with my own riffs to play within the alt scale (over ii - V7 - I) and got to the point of needing to give it a long rest! I only came up with a few things and nothing very musical.
More recently, I was listening to Emily Remler and noted that she tended to use the alt scale sparingly. Hank Jones on piano also didn't stray too far from diatonic notes. I concluded that I was trying to use too many alt notes for my riffs!
That's where I'm at now anyway. It sounds more musical to think diatonic and touch on less alt notes; One or two can make a line more interesting. Using every note in the scale on the V7 chord just doesn't work (for me). YMMV
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Jens has a good intro. He's not holding back on the number of altered notes. Originally Posted by bobby d
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That gave me an idea - come up with an altered scale repertoire syllabus. Originally Posted by bobby d
Not all of these melodic examples can be considered 'altered scale' per se - real world melodies are seldom 'notey' enough for this, even bop heads - but the melodic lines of these songs at some point have some aspect of what we can think of as the altered scale.
This is what I have so far:
A Night in Tunisia
Green Dolphin Street
Hot House
Segment
Moonlight in Vermont (end)
Satin Doll - 'That Satin Doll'
Any more?
Most common is manifestations of what would be the move B-Bb-Ab-G on G7 to Cmaj7, so the V7b9#9 tonality. Sometimes this is accompanied with a straight dominant sometimes with a tritone sub. Often there is no major third of the G7 (B) (Obviously there are some other scales that also have this figure in)
Tunisia has the bVI minor Sub, as does Hot House.
Segment has the implied use of the V7b5 in minor
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I suspect that's the bottom line here. I'm not thinking G7alt or Db7lyd dom or anything like that (although I know that's what it is), I'm listening to the sound I'm making. If it sounds okay who cares what it's called? But I know some people prefer the notations. Originally Posted by Tal_175
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Hello all,
There are so many great responses here I would only like to add one small idea that has served me well.
I usually ask my preliminary students to play an E major scale in three octaves ascending and descending without hesitation.
If you have a way to do this such as the Segovia scales or your own personal way it should be quite easy to do.
My friend and colleague Oz Noy showed me his approach of playing every scale he knows starting on the lowest possible note on the guitar and moving up and across the neck utilizing four notes per string.
The benefit in this option is that as soon as you change strings you immediately move your hand out of that position to the next one. This eliminates the reliance on any vertical pattern you have memorized. It seems people learn scales in one position first and the patterns become somewhat inhibiting.
So the fingering is the key element in this approach.
Start with the first finger and move to the next note and play that note with the same 1st finger. The next three notes will fall under the appropriate finger combination.
1-1 2 4 or 1-1 3 4
The approach gets really interesting when applied to the Pentatonic, Harmonic Minor or Harmonic Major scales because they have minor thirds in their architecture.
I'm sure many players here already know this but I thought I'd mention it since I've yet to see anything about it in this thread.
Thanks to everyone for their interesting ideas!
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Possibly because it's about altered scales in relation to ii-V-I's.I've yet to see anything about it in this thread
... although it appears the OP has lost interest :-)
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